Questioning Everything | One Superior Edge | One Superior Shave

[Rosseforp]

As a wet shaving Noob myself, I have been following this thread with a keen eye. As an old-time machinist, I have vast honing experience, albeit of the cylindrical variety on a Sunnen Hone. I use a wide variety of stones, mostly AO, but also CBN and Diamond. There also a large variety of bonds available.
The main difference between honing a round bore versus a flat edge is just that. They are both measured for straightness. flatness, and surface finish along the longitude of the surface. The stones are the same, the stroke is determined by the operator as is the flow of lubricant.
What is different is the way that pressure is applied. With a cylinder hone the pressure is applied by mechanical force, but the feel is transferred through the hands of the operator. With a razor the amount of force used it kept to a minimum.
Sunnen offers stones made of cork with very fine grit, which is comparable to pasted balsa.
Sunnen also has a tag on the machines that state "always use the lightest pressure that gives the greatest cutting action".
I believe this experience will help me as I try to learn to wax on, wax off with a variety of stones, films, and paste.

I also believe half the answer to the OP's post is metallurgical. I believe it is the way the Japanese treat their steels.

I do not believe any straight razor I've honed or used measures up to the Japanese razor used yesterday, in sharpness and in the shave it gave me.

I also don't want to have to resort to diamonds and CBN unless I just have to, nor do I plan to go down the jnat rabbit hole unless I just have to. Do I have to do either or both?

Much of this thread centers on the stones, but to hold and edge you must first start with quality steels and proper tempering. When the Japanese quench the steel in cold water the micro-grain structure changes, and this alone allows the steel to hold its edge. This is documented and measure-able.

I have honed materials to a mirror finish with cork and AO, you don't need diamonds or CBN, you need experience.

And when it comes to honing razors, experience is something I don't have. I don't even know if I am setting the bevel correctly. Lol

BTW, @Chan Eil Whiskers, If you could find your way to PM me where I might find a Japanese razor like the ones you have pictured I will be forever in your debt.
prof

 

[Namkcakram]

As a wet shaving Noob myself, I have been following this thread with a keen eye. As an old-time machinist, I have vast honing experience, albeit of the cylindrical variety on a Sunnen Hone. I use a wide variety of stones, mostly AO, but also CBN and Diamond. There also a large variety of bonds available.
The main difference between honing a round bore versus a flat edge is just that. They are both measured for straightness. flatness, and surface finish along the longitude of the surface. The stones are the same, the stroke is determined by the operator as is the flow of lubricant.
What is different is the way that pressure is applied. With a cylinder hone the pressure is applied by mechanical force, but the feel is transferred through the hands of the operator. With a razor the amount of force used it kept to a minimum.
Sunnen offers stones made of cork with very fine grit, which is comparable to pasted balsa.
Sunnen also has a tag on the machines that state "always use the lightest pressure that gives the greatest cutting action".
I believe this experience will help me as I try to learn to wax on, wax off with a variety of stones, films, and paste.

I also believe half the answer to the OP's post is metallurgical. I believe it is the way the Japanese treat their steels.




Much of this thread centers on the stones, but to hold and edge you must first start with quality steels and proper tempering. When the Japanese quench the steel in cold water the micro-grain structure changes, and this alone allows the steel to hold its edge. This is documented and measure-able.

I have honed materials to a mirror finish with cork and AO, you don't need diamonds or CBN, you need experience.

And when it comes to honing razors, experience is something I don't have. I don't even know if I am setting the bevel correctly. Lol

BTW, @Chan Eil Whiskers, If you could find your way to PM me where I might find a Japanese razor like the ones you have pictured I will be forever in your debt.
prof

They’re all over Ebay right now for arguably less money than they’re worth. There are plenty of other individually hammer forged razors out there for less money too.

Murican:


German:



But yes my opinion as I said earlier is the Japanese artisan made blades are worth more than the going rate right now, while many other blades are popular currently and overpriced IMO.

 

[duke762]

Wow those are nice!!!! Going to the bay right now to window shop....... Good info Nam!!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

As a wet shaving Noob myself, I have been following this thread with a keen eye. As an old-time machinist, I have vast honing experience, albeit of the cylindrical variety on a Sunnen Hone. I use a wide variety of stones, mostly AO, but also CBN and Diamond. There also a large variety of bonds available.
The main difference between honing a round bore versus a flat edge is just that. They are both measured for straightness. flatness, and surface finish along the longitude of the surface. The stones are the same, the stroke is determined by the operator as is the flow of lubricant.
What is different is the way that pressure is applied. With a cylinder hone the pressure is applied by mechanical force, but the feel is transferred through the hands of the operator. With a razor the amount of force used it kept to a minimum.
Sunnen offers stones made of cork with very fine grit, which is comparable to pasted balsa.
Sunnen also has a tag on the machines that state "always use the lightest pressure that gives the greatest cutting action".
I believe this experience will help me as I try to learn to wax on, wax off with a variety of stones, films, and paste.

I also believe half the answer to the OP's post is metallurgical. I believe it is the way the Japanese treat their steels.




Much of this thread centers on the stones, but to hold and edge you must first start with quality steels and proper tempering. When the Japanese quench the steel in cold water the micro-grain structure changes, and this alone allows the steel to hold its edge. This is documented and measure-able.

I have honed materials to a mirror finish with cork and AO, you don't need diamonds or CBN, you need experience.

And when it comes to honing razors, experience is something I don't have. I don't even know if I am setting the bevel correctly. Lol

BTW, @Chan Eil Whiskers, If you could find your way to PM me where I might find a Japanese razor like the ones you have pictured I will be forever in your debt.
prof

Thanks for the great information and perspective.

If you look at the brands of Japanese razors I've purchased and search for these brands on eBay you'll find many of them offered. They tend to go for prices somewhat higher than many run of the mill American, British, and German razors. However, there are plenty of good ones available by auction on eBay for prices as low as $25. In the $35 to $65 range you'll find many good Japanese razors. Of course, some sell for ridiculously high prices and some sell for high prices because they are mint or otherwise stellar examples and/or are relatively rare.

You'll find a wealth of helpful information on brands to look for and such here, link.

 

[kohalajohn]

Rosseforp, you made an interesting point about cork. Have not heard of that, but it should do the same thing as balsa, in that diamond dust will sink partly into it. I could buy thin sheets of cork and glue it onto acrylic just as I do with my balsa.

And as cork is softer than balsa, the edge would sink further into it. The medium would act more like a hanging strop, curving up to caress the edge of the edge.

Anybody tried this?

Oh, also what is AO?

thx

 

[Steve56]

AO = aluminum oxide

 

[Rosseforp]

AO = aluminum oxide

+1

 

[Rosseforp]

I'm with you on both counts. The better the steel the better the edge. High grade steels arent cheap.

+1