I’m going to have to disagree with you here. If you can’t get a decent shave off a 12k stone then there is something wrong with your honing. When I first started coming to these forums an 8k stone was considered a finisher and no one complained about it. Yes you can go further and chase the ultimate edge, but if you can’t get an irritation free shave from a 12k stone then I consider that an issue.
Questioning Everything | One Superior Edge | One Superior Shave
- Thread starter Chan Eil Whiskers
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In the 6k-8k JIS range irritation-free shaves start to become possible for most shavers... presuming the hone is halfway decent quality. Dollars to donuts most shavers can't tell a 10k from a 12k or a 15k unless they are familiar directly with the exact hone used (A naniwa SS 10k edge feels different from a naniwa SS 12k edge, but more because of the stones behavior/exact makeup than the actual particle size). Back when a Shapton 30k was the "cutting edge", so to speak, of refinement; a lot of guys actually preferred 16,15,12 and 10k's to it. They liked the feel better... so no, you don't need sub-micron particles (whether hone, film, or paste) to get an irritation-free shave. In fact, most people when the .25 and finer pastes were coming out actually would use them, then go BACK to .5 chromox for 1-3 passes because the finer pastes left an edge that caused irritation (there's many possible reasons for this).
A straight razor actually should surpass the average DE at very moderate refinement. You're comparing a 10-18 degree effective angle to a 23-26 degree one. Doesn't take a lot of polish for the finer angle to surpass the other, regardless how high it's polished. Synth speaking... I'd say around 9k JIS my straights start to get sharper than a DE blade. Possibly lower.
yeah I was just saying I disagreed with any notion that films have an advantage due to a smaller leap in grit size between films, because if anything most natural progressions overlap stone to stone When used correctly IME. You know as well as I do that a nagura progression is often two steps forward and one back when you go from well worn slurry to fresh slurry from the next stone up. I almost always cringe a bit going from worn Tsushima slurry to fresh tomo, but then the magic happens and everything works out fine. Arks are the same to me, a maxed finish off the coarse Washita is already a shaving edge and well past the starting baseline polish for a surgical black. It’s not a hardline stair step the way a synth or film progression is, so I think the rules and baking recipes go out the window and it can degrade to confusion and chaos and bad edges pretty easily.
I’m most comfortable on woodworking JNATs, friable Imanishis, and DMTs actually... I spend way less time honing razors then chisels generally.
I’m most comfortable on woodworking JNATs, friable Imanishis, and DMTs actually... I spend way less time honing razors then chisels generally.
Nice find from the wayback machine -- I also remember hearing of guys finding the .25 diamond too harsh so they settled on .5 diamond (and/or CrOx).
Basil I have the same experience as you. I do own a 12k Naniwa but I have never used it. I got a razor from eBay, Swedish seller, and the shave was absolutely perfect. When I asked him what he had used he said simple synthetic progression to 12k Naniwa.
I wonder if Twelvefret is referring to 12k in general or a specific brand of stone he used. Maybe the stone wasn't good?
In a couple of years you guys are going to complain about 30k edges...
I can shave irritation free with a smooth edge off 8K honed by a pro
I have irritation and bad shaves on natural stones or films well past 16K honed by a non-pro.
IMO if you cant get a half decent shave of a 8k your are clueless when it comes to honing. If you cant get a 8K to shave well there is little chance to improve the edge going beyond that no matter the medium.
Stones also vary dramatically. a proper 8k might actually be around 8-12k with the reverse also being true on bad stones.
I can shave irritation free with a smooth edge off 8K honed by a pro
I have irritation and bad shaves on natural stones or films well past 16K honed by a non-pro.
IMO if you cant get a half decent shave of a 8k your are clueless when it comes to honing. If you cant get a 8K to shave well there is little chance to improve the edge going beyond that no matter the medium.
Stones also vary dramatically. a proper 8k might actually be around 8-12k with the reverse also being true on bad stones.
I was able to get a "decent shave" using stones, either the Coticule or Thuringian stones. I get better shaves using 200k grit diamond pasted balsa. What I mean by better is that when I am finished my beard hair has been cut more evenly and is shorter. Additionally, is do not need to go over the same areas so that irritation and redness is diminished or not a factor.
We know from posts that everyone will not need or enjoy a 200K edge. I am not suggesting everyone should. I just take issue with you are anyone suggesting that just because you can shave off a 6k or 8k edge it is practical and comfortable for others. Shaving is very individual.
Well, they (the 8k users) probably complained, but they were not vocal perhaps. And, do you know how many walked away from considering using a straight razor because the quality of their shaves suffered? Just because a few folks can use something does not mean all can do the same and have good results.
I know you said you used to use a Coticule exclusively. I also know you have subsequently bought other stones and more recently another one. If you were satisfied with your results using a Coticule, why buy more stones or try new progressions. The reason is clear. There was some sense of curiosity and the love of experimentation. That's all I am doing. I am sharing my experiences the same as you. I realize that's a bit of a strawman argument because I have no idea why you actually decided to move of from your Coticule stone. Perhaps you were no longer satisfied with just a "decent shave".
When using anecdotal experiences as evidence, it become impossible to tell a new straight razor user how to prepare and shave with a razor. Most here make it way to complicated I suspect because they are still experimenting themselves. With a film progression and then diamond/balsa, that confusion is diminished. It's a straight forward progression from 600-20K.
Our friend Jim learned something when he got a diamond pasted edge on his new Japanese razor. The honer, a professional by any stretch, did a combination of several mediums so that whoever bought his razor might have a better chance of obtaining a good shave. Should the seller have put the edge to 8K?
I've shaved off professionally honed edges so I have some experience with how those edges perform. I also have a shavette and know how those perform. What I can tell you anecdotally is the best edge overall that I have used is film and diamond. Can I shave off a Coticule or a Thuringian, hello yes. So, it's not really technique with a razor or honing. It is a matter of what does the best work. You should appreciate this as a woodworker. Would you settle with an edge that does not cut well because another woodworker says you should be able to or that the reason you can't is your fault? I trust the answer is a resounding no.
I was able to get a bbs shave irritation free from my coticules with no problem.
I bought a jnat and a black ark to see what difference I could get from my edges. The jnats were fun to use but took a long time to do a full progression, results were sharper than before but took longer. The back ark I am happy with, whatever edge i finish on my stones I just do a couple laps on the ark and it smooths everything out.
Like you said I was curious and wanted to see what else I can do. I am still doing a coti finish on most of my razors because it’s what I find easiest.
I just don’t like blanket statements that say things like a 12k stone won’t give you a good shave. Like many of us have said an 8k stone was considered all uou needed for years by almost everyone. If you think people left because they had to shave with an 8k edge I think you are mistaken. Just look at how many members have been here for almost 10 years or longer.
The are my observations and intended to be taken with plenty of salt. I am a keen follower of anything honing/shaving and appreciate the knowledge, experience, questions, considerations and general informed shared.
You whiskers grow quicker than the sub-micron increments achieved between 16 & 200k edges related to whisker shortness after cutting. By the time your shave is finished, (20 or 30 min shavetime) the sub micron shortness achieved during shaving (200k) is eliminated by the rate of whisker growth. The same applies if you only use slurry to try and refine an edges, it will not get any sharper no matter how much effort you put in. The undiluted slurry will keep eating the edge/apex.
Irritation and redness is a bi-product of bad technique, pressure and angle. We know this because a properly honed 16k edge will not result in irritation or redness with correct technique, pressure and angle.
I also believe those considering straight razors eventually walk away because the community “insist” that 8 and 12k edges are not useable, will result in irritation and redness, that you require microscopes, many stones, many years of experience, industrial edge testing equipment and some voodoo to be able to have a decent and comfortable shave.
The community is so focused on sharpness that whisker/skin preparation and technique takes a back seat. IMO these will have a bigger impact on shave quality than a sharp edge (8k vs 200k), especially the new.
You can shave as long as you want with a 200k edge, but if you don't follow whisker growth with good technique during the various directional passes you will never achieve BBS. This to me is more important that extreme sub micron edges.
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I agree with this. Lots of people saying you need a lot of gear to get the best shave. Really all you need is a decent razor and a stone or two to get a finished edge. If all you’re doing is maintaining your edge you can get by with just a stone like a 12k easy to use and keep your blade sharp. You might not get the best edges right away but with a little practise and experience you will be able to maintain your blades no problem.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
You don’t need a microscope to see everything that you need to see on a straight razor edge, a good 7-10x loupe works fine, but you can see the same problems with either. It’s more important to understand what you’re seeing and how to fix those observed issues.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Blanket statements like ‘You can’t get a good shaving edge off an 8k’ says much more about a lack of experience than the stones. And 12k egads! I did a comparison on another forum of the Naniwa 10k (which the German folk seem to prefer over the 12k) and the Suehiro 20k. The difference was very hard to detect in-shave.
When I began honing straight razors some 10 years ago, I believed similar things that just weren’t true, all because of a lack of experience. After all, I was making the best edge I could at the time, and couldn’t imagine making a better one. If I had known how, I would have made a better edge back then.
it’s all about practice, ‘wax on, wax off’, which doesn’t make for much conversation on a forum. Here are some things that you MUST master if you want to master honing and that no stone or paste will help you with, they must be learned.
- knowing when the bevel is set along every millimeter of the cutting edge and knowing how to observe/test for it.
- knowing how to make every millimeter of the edge hit the hone evenly no matter what the edge shape.
- making sure that the cutting edge is uniform, toe, middle, and heel.
- knowing how to hone and fix common problems like frowns, smiles, burrs, etc.
- knowing how much pressure to use and when to use it.
Not executing any of the above will give you a sub standard shaving experience which is usually attributed to the hardware rather than the technique.
When I began honing straight razors some 10 years ago, I believed similar things that just weren’t true, all because of a lack of experience. After all, I was making the best edge I could at the time, and couldn’t imagine making a better one. If I had known how, I would have made a better edge back then.
it’s all about practice, ‘wax on, wax off’, which doesn’t make for much conversation on a forum. Here are some things that you MUST master if you want to master honing and that no stone or paste will help you with, they must be learned.
- knowing when the bevel is set along every millimeter of the cutting edge and knowing how to observe/test for it.
- knowing how to make every millimeter of the edge hit the hone evenly no matter what the edge shape.
- making sure that the cutting edge is uniform, toe, middle, and heel.
- knowing how to hone and fix common problems like frowns, smiles, burrs, etc.
- knowing how much pressure to use and when to use it.
Not executing any of the above will give you a sub standard shaving experience which is usually attributed to the hardware rather than the technique.
Go back to the OP. Here’s a friend of ours whose been listening and learning. He’s got 250 plus SR shaves. He’s got a great collection of stones. He’s not new to shaving or honing.
Then, he had a experience with a razor he got from a vendor finished on CBN and diamond. His experience was significant.
Then, he had a experience with a razor he got from a vendor finished on CBN and diamond. His experience was significant.
You guys spend too much time arguing about what to hone on but not enough time thinking about how to hone.
You are comparing CBN/Diamond honed by some vendor to a edges honed by a guy here. You may as well compare apples to oranges.
Maybe the vendor knows how to hone? Maybe spending more time with the stuff you have and learning will make you better?
I don't want to come across too harsh but honestly OP showed pics off his edge through the USB scope and that was not a good edge. A finished edge looks different and no matter what you hone that edge on it won't give you a good shave.
Maybe taking a minute, reading Steve's post and trying to digest it would serve better than incessant arguing.
He gives you the answer to honing no matter what you hone on. You still have to make sure the toe hits, the heel hits, you have overcome the warp etc. Every razor is different.
You are comparing CBN/Diamond honed by some vendor to a edges honed by a guy here. You may as well compare apples to oranges.
Maybe the vendor knows how to hone? Maybe spending more time with the stuff you have and learning will make you better?
I don't want to come across too harsh but honestly OP showed pics off his edge through the USB scope and that was not a good edge. A finished edge looks different and no matter what you hone that edge on it won't give you a good shave.
Maybe taking a minute, reading Steve's post and trying to digest it would serve better than incessant arguing.
He gives you the answer to honing no matter what you hone on. You still have to make sure the toe hits, the heel hits, you have overcome the warp etc. Every razor is different.
Maybe the vendor knows how to hone? The OP has already validated the vendor’s honing by how the edge performed.
It's a rhetorical question Twelvefret. I said look at OP's edge under the scope in the pic he posted. The is not a good edge.
Now with the use of his USB scope he will be able to see the progress and improve his honing. That's what I have done, it works. If half of your razor doesnt touch the stone or film or whatever it won't hone and it won't shave. You could use unicorn tears and it won't make a difference.
So better honing technique and not the medium that the razor was honed on will make a difference.
People shave off coticules, my edges off cotis are not that good. Do I blame the coti? No. I blame my technique. I have not learned how to use the stone.
Synthetics. Much easier. Hone just make sure you don't overhone on those 12 and 20k's. But use some sort of magnification, so you know where your edge is and you are not working blind.
That's the message everybody is trying to convey here. We get better as we hone.
Now with the use of his USB scope he will be able to see the progress and improve his honing. That's what I have done, it works. If half of your razor doesnt touch the stone or film or whatever it won't hone and it won't shave. You could use unicorn tears and it won't make a difference.
So better honing technique and not the medium that the razor was honed on will make a difference.
People shave off coticules, my edges off cotis are not that good. Do I blame the coti? No. I blame my technique. I have not learned how to use the stone.
Synthetics. Much easier. Hone just make sure you don't overhone on those 12 and 20k's. But use some sort of magnification, so you know where your edge is and you are not working blind.
That's the message everybody is trying to convey here. We get better as we hone.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Excerpt from the OP:
‘It's not that I'm down on my other razors or my stones or my honing, but I'd really like to be consistently using edges in the league with what I used yesterday. I should also mention that I have razors, razors I've honed, which are sharper than today's Herder, but that doesn't negate how much shaper I think the Japanese razor was. Plus, the Japanese razor was very comfortable and smart so it lost nothing by being sharper.’
Lol, I am under the impression that I did answer this question.
‘It's not that I'm down on my other razors or my stones or my honing, but I'd really like to be consistently using edges in the league with what I used yesterday. I should also mention that I have razors, razors I've honed, which are sharper than today's Herder, but that doesn't negate how much shaper I think the Japanese razor was. Plus, the Japanese razor was very comfortable and smart so it lost nothing by being sharper.’
Lol, I am under the impression that I did answer this question.
I am referring to the performance of the vendor’s edge which he has praised the performance.
