JNAT Experts, question about a rock

[GreekGuy]

I received this Nakayama Maruka off the BST. Can you tell me anything about it from its skin? I've heard the saw marks are indicative of "old" stones.

Any information or guesses would be most helpful, as I know essentially nothing about it.

Thanks!

 

[danjared]

I certainly won't claim to be an expert (that usually is just a quick way to shoot myself in the foot anyway), but most especially about Japanese awasedo. However, my guess is that it's of one of the suita layers and probably medium-hard. Whatever it is, it looks nice.

 

[GreekGuy]

I certainly won't claim to be an expert (that usually is just a quick way to shoot myself in the foot anyway), but most especially about Japanese awasedo. However, my guess is that it's of one of the suita layers and probably medium-hard. Whatever it is, it looks nice.

Thanks Jared!

I've been told some people can tell the age from the skin and cut marks. And the stamps are not something regularly seen, so I'm guessing that makes it an old stone, but I was hoping someone with more experience than myself might be able to confirm this.

 

[danjared]

Thanks Jared!

I've been told some people can tell the age from the skin and cut marks. And the stamps are not something regularly seen, so I'm guessing that makes it an old stone, but I was hoping someone with more experience than myself might be able to confirm this.

I've heard this as well. I've assumed that, given the large number of mines and strata, that this is hard to guess much unless you've seen hundreds or thousands of stones and possibly have geology training. At least with coticules, you can guess details pretty easily if you know the exact mine because the area mined is pretty small. Even then, looks don't necessarily fully correlate with speed or other characteristics.

As far as the stamps, I've heard that the Maruka stamp was only given to those stones coming from the Nakayama mine that were considered the best stones, although I'm not sure about the exact criteria. I do know that a Nakayama Maruka stone that I have looks similar to yours and is the way I described in my previous post. Mine now only has the stamp that is on the side (reading "Maruka"). I forget if it had any stamps on top when I got it.

 

[GreekGuy]

As far as the stamps, I've heard that the Maruka stamp was only given to those stones coming from the Nakayama mine that were considered the best stones, although I'm not sure about the exact criteria. I do know that a Nakayama Maruka stone that I have looks similar to yours and is the way I described in my previous post. Mine now only has the stamp that is on the side (reading "Maruka"). I forget if it had any stamps on top when I got it.

I'm thinking that the stamp that looks "pentagonal" is a Makura stamp of sorts, but supposedly these thing have been faked in the past so I'm not sure.

You're 100% right about coticules. With a coticule, its not too difficult to determine the layer or that it even is a coticule for razors. I'm not an expert on that, but there are certainly experts out there. And while every stone is different, generally speaking a La Verte is slower and harder than a Les Lat, etc etc.

JNATS, however, are a total mystery to me

 

[rmalak]

Well as far as the layer and such of the stone, it' hard to tell. Looks like an asagi to me but who knows. Also the maruka stamp is usually the one on the edge of the stone. The one you have there is almost impossible to tell if it's the right stamp or not. It should look like this:


Image is borrowed from Maxim.

Either way it is a very nice stone and if it is a maruka then it should be ideal for razors. Enjoy!

 

[Woodash]

I was under the impression that suita essentially referred to one of the strata in the quarry - in this case, suita referring to the deepest, and presumably hardest of the layers (?).

 

[superbleu]

looks pretty similar to an Ozuku Asagi I got from Maxim at JNS.

But, many stones look alike, so I wouldn't put any money on it.

 

[Gamma]

My meager understanding;
Nakayama mine was in Mt. Atago. The mine was owned by the Kato family. The Hatanaka family ran the whetstone company. One character in the Maruka stamp (seen on the end of the stone in rmalak's pic) on the end has one character that relates to the name 'Kato'; that's the circled character 'ka'. I've been told that unless the stone has that stamp - it is not a 'Maruka'.


One plausible theory that I've gleaned from reading way too much online - is that the stones with the Maruka stamp were superior to others. Allegedly - the Kato family were fastidious in their quest to quarry and market only high-quality stones. The 'Maruka' stamp was the best of the best.
Another theory I've read is that unless the stone was also stamped 'Kamisori' - the Maruka stamp doesn't mean much to us using the stone for straight razors. I believe the 'Kamisori' stamp (actually a grade of stone) came about from a request from Iwasaki - to ensure that his razors were honed on the 'best' stones available.

I would not guess that the OP's stone is a Suita. To me - It looks to me to have a certain 'green-ness' to the stone that I associate with non-Suita strata Nakayama stones, I don't see any of the eponymous Su. The skin looks similar to the skin on my Nakayama Asagi. But - I have to say I don't know all that much.

The OP's stone seems to have an end stamp - but the outline seems to be out of proportion to the Maruka stamps I've seen. But again - I'm not an expert.

 

[Kentos]

That brown rust colored area in the corner is reminicent of mine, kinda

The only way to know if it's any good for razor is to try it. I suspect it will work nicely. Mine is a no name rock, but works

 

[Gamma]

Hatanaka's stamps

Maruka stamp

 

[Kentos]

Well Gamma I like how that first pic shows the "for kamisori use" stamp. I am gonna save that image for future use.

 

[danjared]

I would not guess that the OP's stone is a Suita. To me - It looks to me to have a certain 'green-ness' to the stone that I associate with non-Suita strata Nakayama stones, I don't see any of the eponymous Su. The skin looks similar to the skin on my Nakayama Asagi. But - I have to say I don't know all that much.

Yeah, I thought it resembled mine. But, I looked at the skin of mine, which is rather different. I'm all but certain that mine is suita, both because of the presence of small su and the lines going through it, which are much more apparent on the back side. (Pictures here if you're curious (lighter colored one): https://picasaweb.google.com/108257328825523409504/May312012?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCJ_jtoikqpyOHA&feat=directlink)

 

[Gamma]

Very nice Jnats - ESP that lighter stone.

 

[danjared]

Very nice Jnats - ESP that lighter stone.

Thanks. The lighter one wasn't too cheap either although about the cost of my 3"x8" coticule when I bought that 1.5 years ago. I bought it over two years ago, so I have no idea what it'd cost now. I've tried selling before since I don't use it much, but people are hesitant about lines even though they are harmless. Oh well, I'm keeping it now anyway. The other one is a run of the mill Oozuku--very hard, asagi, some nice figuring on the surface.

 

[ken123]

The Maruka stamp was a stamp originally used by the Kato family, specifically for Nakayama stones as oppossed to other mines. Later after they were no longer in the business, the stamping was given over to Hatanaka. The Maurka designation is now used as a mark of ownership, not necessarily a quality rating designation as it was when the Kato family possessed the stamping, so these older stones are considered more of a premium stone, with pricing reflecting this. The mark itself consists of two components - the Maru meaning circle and the 'Ka' inside it designating the 'Ka of Kato'. The use of the Maru component is also seen in other vendor's less well known designations, eg Marukei.

---
Ken

 

[GreekGuy]

Ken,

Thank you for the information. Can you tell anything about the stone in my first post? Any insights would be helpful

 

[Gamma]

From what I've read - the Nakayama stamps were a bit of a marketing tool to differentiate those stones from what other mines produced. The Maruka stamp was not, as far as I know, used specifically for that purpose; they were quality indicators. Kato owned Nakayama, I do not think they owned another mine. In the beginning, Kato stamped the best stones Maruichi Maruka. At one point - Hatanaka and Kato became partners I think, and eventually Hatanaka were the sole owners - and they dropped the Maruichi stamp. They still are the owners of the Nakayama mine, but it's been closeed since the late 60s I think. Nothing I've read so far indicates that the Maruka stamp is still in use, or that it was used as anything other than a quality indicator. None of the recent stones (cut from old slabs) from Hatanaka that I have seen have had the Maruka stamp.
Of course they're just rubber ink-stamps so anything is possible I suppose.
After a lengthy discussion about all of this stuff with someone who's been in the whetstone business for a loooooong time - I've come to realize that stamps, in and of themselves, don't mean all that much. Provenance means little, performance means everything. Apparently - there are counterfeiters out there too, so - not all that glitters is gold.

 

[Woodash]

I had a Maruichi Maruka with a 'pedigree' that couldn't hold a candle to the Jnats that I now use - at least not for razors.

 

[Gamma]

It's my belief that the magic isn't in the stone or the stamp.
The real magic is in the bonds between the user and the stone, and the stone and the steel.
The Nagura factor in the same way too.