Hi Laz

[AFDavis11]

Hi Laz,

This is Alan. I have 148 questions in no particular order. I thought I'd jump in here because I need all the help I can get. I've been at the straightrazor game for a while now, bout a year atleast. I don't quite get it. I have no experience honing so that is part of my problem and no real experience stropping either. I have a strop, 5 razors, Norton 4/8, a carbarondum hone, and a Swaty hone. I also have lots of pastes and extra strop material. I would like to simplify my understanding of the process as simplicity is important to me. As you can imagine, simplicity doesn't exactly pour out of the straight razor shaving process.

So my first question is about honing as I would like to understand the process better.

1. Because I have only had luck honing with using moderate pressure on the blade I wonder if you could describe the pressure you use. I find that no/light pressure is useless. Do I just need to quadrouple my passes on the hone and continue trying for the next couple of years to use no pressure or do you actually use some pressure, say just enough to keep the blade on the hone securely. I find with the one time I have had success that this helped. But again I have only had success honing once.

Next question...

2. What pressure do you use on the strop...both the hand holding the strop and with the blade hand. ? I've had no luck here but again I think that some pressure is needed. I understand that I'm wrong...but just want to get your take on it. What speed do you use on the strop as well? Here I can see using very light pressure but whats your real take on it.

Third question for tonight....

Based on all the stuff I have and your experience what would you use to hone a razor up and maintain it based on my interest to keep things simple. Would you just practice on the 4/8 or would you focus on the carbarundum and Swaty. Or some other combo...

Ok, thats good for tonight...145 questions to go....but I'll hold off a little on those.....

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Hello back! Lemme see if I can help you, I hope I can!

I would like to simplify my understanding of the process as simplicity is important to me. As you can imagine, simplicity doesn't exactly pour out of the straight razor shaving process.

Simplicity is a necessity for learning. You need to "learn" how each hone works, before you start switching them around. Learn one, and then you can experiment with others. I would recommend the Norton 4000/8000 out of what you have right now, because the dual grits can get pretty much any razor back to shaving sharp for you. Different hones will take different amounts of strokes to acheive the same results, so keep with one until you have it down pat.

1. Because I have only had luck honing with using moderate pressure on the blade I wonder if you could describe the pressure you use. I find that no/light pressure is useless. Do I just need to quadrouple my passes on the hone and continue trying for the next couple of years to use no pressure or do you actually use some pressure, say just enough to keep the blade on the hone securely. I find with the one time I have had success that this helped. But again I have only had success honing once.

Pressure is a variable, I cannot give you one answer that will apply to all razors. I have some that are ground so thin, ANY pressure will flex the blade, throwing off the angle of the edge to the hone. Reflect light off the blade as you hone to see if your razor is flexing at all. A heavy wedge grind razor will accept more pressure than an extra-hollow grind.
Lets start with a badly dulled razor. And a few tips for the Norton. Make sure the surface is relatively clean. If you have a lot of metal build-up on the Norton, clean it off with a scrubbing sponge and elbow grease, or you can put some wet/dry sandpaper on a countertop and 5-10 passes, rubbing the Norton onto the sandpaper will clean off the surface. This is called "lapping".
What I have found works well for me is alternating the grits during honing. 10 or 12 each way on the 4000 side, half a dozen of so on the 8000, and check the edge to see what progress you made. For unknown reasons, it seems to work better for me than just sticking to the 4000 side. You might have to use a bit, slight, very little pressure when restoring an edge as described above (removing nicks, etc). Once you have the bevel corrected and true, you can work on polishing the edge with the 8000 side. You will know when the edge is true by shaving hair off your forearm, using the entire length of the blade. Make sure it shaves smoothly the whole length. If there are any dull or rough spots, keep working on the edge till you get it uniform. No sense trying to polish an edge that does not have a tue or correct bevel to it.
Try about 5 passes on the 800 side, and test shave.
Ah, a word about pressure when you are polishing an edge.... What works best for me, is to sit at a table, put the Norton on something to make it chest or chin high, and using ONE hand, slowly use the X-pattern. You will see where your balance is off as you might tip the razor one way or another, but practice will improve your technique.

Next question...

2. What pressure do you use on the strop...both the hand holding the strop and with the blade hand. ? I've had no luck here but again I think that some pressure is needed. I understand that I'm wrong...but just want to get your take on it. What speed do you use on the strop as well? Here I can see using very light pressure but whats your real take on it.

I hold the strop tight to eliminate any sag, but not so tight as to leave my fingerprints in the leather. I try to hold the strop parallel to the ground, and use no pressure, so even the weight of the blade doesn't "sag" the strop. That takes practice. But there is nothing wrong about laying a hanging strop on the edge of a table or counter and using it that way, either (basically like a paddle strop). I don't speed down the strop, nor does it take all day. Maybe a two-one thousand count for each side of the razor to go up and down the strop.

Third question for tonight....

Based on all the stuff I have and your experience what would you use to hone a razor up and maintain it based on my interest to keep things simple. Would you just practice on the 4/8 or would you focus on the carbarundum and Swaty. Or some other combo...

Ok, thats good for tonight...145 questions to go....but I'll hold off a little on those.....

I guess I answered your question first. The Norton with the two grits will help you more now than the barber hones. Barber hones like the Swaty and Carborundum are meant for refreshing an edge that has just lost it keenness. They will take you forever to restore an edge. They are very fine grits, therefore to be used only to "refresh" an edge.
I am assuming you are honing some Ebay razors, and in my humble experience, the edges on them are generally NOT "almost shave ready", nor will a few laps on the barber hones be sufficient for them.
Barber hones are great tools, but not to restore dulled or nicked edges.

Don't worry about the pastesand other hones for now, the Norton can get you a smooth shave by itself. Work on perfecting your honing with the Norton, then we can learn about pastes and whatnot.

 

[Joe Lerch]

Based on all the stuff I have and your experience what would you use to hone a razor up and maintain it based on my interest to keep things simple. Would you just practice on the 4/8 or would you focus on the carbarundum and Swaty. Or some other combo...

I thought I would put in my two cents in a way to help you the most.

You are shaving so you must have some working razors. The thing you need to learn to use the most are the strop and the Swaty. To make life easier, I would get a paddle strop. It removes most of the variables. While you're at it, get one with 2 sides so you can put a .5 micron paste on one. You can also get a Streichmen-Riemen two sided paddle for about $25. I prefer this because the pasted side is permanent (doesn't require re-pasting).

When you go to the paddle your success is almost assured. Just keep enough pressure so you feel a drag on the strop.

Learn to use the Swaty and your trips to the hone will be rare. When the razor starts to pull. Give it a few swipes on the Swaty. I mean a few 3-4. Strop, and you razor is refreshed. You can keep the razor keen like this for a long time.

If you get the pasted strop, I would do one or two swipes on it before the normal strop, and you make the trips to the Swaty less frequent.

If you learn to use these two you will rarely need to hone.

Honing had a steep learning curve for me. The key was developing a good test for sharpness. The various hair cutting tests don't work for me, even with razors I get from Lynn. I think my hair is too fine. Besides, you really need a test that let's you monitor progress and that will tell you what you need to do next. For me the thumb and thumbnail test used by barbers met the need.

You will need to develop the feel, but here's how I use them. Detailed discussions of the tests are available at classicshaving.com in the "how to -- and why section."

THUMB TEST
Do this test when you first pick up a razor.

Support the razor gently with the edge pointing up and lightly drag your thumb across the edge in a few places along the blade:

1) If the thumb slides easily and there’s no grab, go to the thumbnail test;​

2) If the razor grabs slightly, do 3 swipes on 8K stone and 15-20 on strop, then repeat test;​

3) If the razor grabs but you feel no edge do 10 swipes on strop, then repeat test;​

4) If the razor grabs really well or moves with the thumb, you will usually feel an edge- shave.​

THUMBNAIL TEST
You have failed the thumb test.

Rest the blade on top of the thumbnail with edge pointing down and tilt the thumb downward slowly. If the razor slips sideways go to the 4K stone.

If not, bring thumb back to level and slide the blade on thumbnail from one end to the other:

1) If the blade slides smoothly and doesn’t dig in, go to the 4K stone (dull);​

2) If the blade digs in but doesn’t move smoothly, go to the 8K stone (coarse);​

3) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, but you feel a gap or bump, you have a nick at that spot;​

4) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, go to the strop;​

5) If the blade digs in but makes a rough, scraping sound you have an overhoned edge.​

I've described the tests in terms of using a 4/8K, but you can add a Swaty (just remember it's fast) and pasted strop. When you move off the 8K, go to the Swaty and do a few swipes, then test. Keep doing it until you don't feel the Swaty make a difference. The move up to the pasted strop and do the same. You can test after every 10 swipes.

The feature of this system is that you're not working in the dark. There are no pyramids. You're always moving in one direction- afiner abrasive and a finer edge. Stop when you're happy with it.

The ultimate test is shaving! However, I have now done 30 razors in a row that passed the shave test the first tme I tried. So these tests are pretty reliable.

One more thing. Get yourself a $10 pocket microscope from Radio Shack. I have found that every razor from Ebay has at least microscopic faults that show up as a rough edge at 100x. I tested razors that were shaving and found it. When I removed the unevenness, the shaved much better.

Now, when I start working on an Ebay razor, I check it at 100x and get that edge staight at 100x before I do anything else. Sometimes the edge is deteriorated and you'll get past the 8K but won't be able t get it really smooth because very tiny pieces of the fin crumble or fall out. Getting down to good metal first avoids this.

 

[AFDavis11]

Thanx gentlemen,

Ok that makes a nice lead in to question 144....lol. But first, I do have one razor that seems to shave nicely, very intuitive Joe. Also I have the microscope as well. And Laz, thanx I actually would like to focus on the Norton for now as I'm a little suspicious about getting a blade shaving sharp with just the 8,000 and would think that doing so would be the break through I'm looking for honing wise. So on the razors that I have that are shaving poorly on one in particular I see a rough spot that I don't like very much. Its a big rough spot, no longer really deep, i honed it down but still not even. I have honed it down considerably but the rough spot still remains. Should I consider tipping the spine up to hone it completely flat? And should I consider tipping any other razors to get the edge flat or should I stick with an x pattern or circlular honing and always a flat spine? I'd say the erupted section is about 1/4 the depth of the edge right now. It started at 3/4.

So to summarize question 144 is, should I ever lift the spine to flaten a blade edge out and restart if ordinary honing is seeming to fail to ever get the blade edge flat?

Next question is...143, ofcourse. What are the causes of those little chips in the edge? I'm seeing those on my new razors as well as the old ones. My suspicions are that Im honing with an unclean hone and sometimes I hear the blade seem to hit something as it moves down the hone, second every once in a while I sort of "drop" the edge on the hone as I flip the blade over on the spine and it hits the hone kinda hard. Would that be enough to cause the blade to micro break? And are there any other things I should look out for that a honing fool might do to cause those little chips? Honing them out is great fun but I'd like to stop them from happening if possible.

On to question 142, Joe, for the blade that is shaving well I'm sure you can imagine I don't want to screw it up and I have hidden it from the other razors and the Norton but the Swaty would be perfect for it and will soon need to be refreshed. My Swaty came with the original directions and it didnt say anything about using lather or water on the hone. So is it just used dry? Also, its old like, 40 years old, and it has what appears to be streams running through it so its not exactly flat. I gave a half attempt at flattening it with wet/dry sand paper but it didn't seem to respond much. Maybe its too hard and low grit. It has worked at improving an edge once very well but typically not too often. I think it only works on near shaving razors.

142...Should I use a Swaty dry and is it ok if its got little groove worn into it?

So for today, the Norton and one of my blades with just small nicks in it...this one is stainless I think so it may take awile...but I'll lap the Norton first and try some work on it. This one has given me some great shaves at one point but I seemed to have lost the edge on it. I find it hard to know when the razor is good, I have overhoned in the past. I'll work on the thumb tests, Joe, also.

Ok, thats it for today...and thanx gentlemen for your time...

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Thanx gentlemen,

Ok that makes a nice lead in to question 144....lol. But first, I do have one razor that seems to shave nicely, very intuitive Joe. Also I have the microscope as well. And Laz, thanx I actually would like to focus on the Norton for now as I'm a little suspicious about getting a blade shaving sharp with just the 8,000 and would think that doing so would be the break through I'm looking for honing wise. So on the razors that I have that are shaving poorly on one in particular I see a rough spot that I don't like very much. Its a big rough spot, no longer really deep, i honed it down but still not even. I have honed it down considerably but the rough spot still remains. Should I consider tipping the spine up to hone it completely flat? And should I consider tipping any other razors to get the edge flat or should I stick with an x pattern or circlular honing and always a flat spine? I'd say the erupted section is about 1/4 the depth of the edge right now. It started at 3/4.

If there is still a dip, chip, or nick in the blade, I would recommend more honing until it is gone. The edge needs to be all flat, straight and uniform for a smooth shave.
You can tip the blade at a higher angle to quickly remove the dip, or use the circular method, but I think you are almost there, so keep using the X-pattern.

So to summarize question 144 is, should I ever lift the spine to flaten a blade edge out and restart if ordinary honing is seeming to fail to ever get the blade edge flat?

Yes, you can. If I have a razor with a deep chip, I might use that method to get the bevel straight,then do the X-pattern to make the bevel true to the spine

Next question is...143, ofcourse. What are the causes of those little chips in the edge? I'm seeing those on my new razors as well as the old ones. My suspicions are that Im honing with an unclean hone and sometimes I hear the blade seem to hit something as it moves down the hone, second every once in a while I sort of "drop" the edge on the hone as I flip the blade over on the spine and it hits the hone kinda hard. Would that be enough to cause the blade to micro break? And are there any other things I should look out for that a honing fool might do to cause those little chips? Honing them out is great fun but I'd like to stop them from happening if possible.

You could be overhoning, which makes the edge too fragile. Make sure you rotate the razor on its spine after you do each stroke. If you hit the edge on the hone, this probably is causing the dips and chips.

On to question 142, Joe, for the blade that is shaving well I'm sure you can imagine I don't want to screw it up and I have hidden it from the other razors and the Norton but the Swaty would be perfect for it and will soon need to be refreshed. My Swaty came with the original directions and it didnt say anything about using lather or water on the hone. So is it just used dry? Also, its old like, 40 years old, and it has what appears to be streams running through it so its not exactly flat. I gave a half attempt at flattening it with wet/dry sand paper but it didn't seem to respond much. Maybe its too hard and low grit. It has worked at improving an edge once very well but typically not too often. I think it only works on near shaving razors.

Swaty's are VERY hard, and lapping them can be very tough. Best way to do that is to lap them against another hard similar construction barber hone. Use water to keep them lubricated.

142...Should I use a Swaty dry and is it ok if its got little groove worn into it?

Anything under the main surface of the hone will not affect the blade, for it never touches the edge. You can use the Swaty dry, with water, oil, or lather. Your choice.

So for today, the Norton and one of my blades with just small nicks in it...this one is stainless I think so it may take awile...but I'll lap the Norton first and try some work on it. This one has given me some great shaves at one point but I seemed to have lost the edge on it. I find it hard to know when the razor is good, I have overhoned in the past. I'll work on the thumb tests, Joe, also.

Ok, thats it for today...and thanx gentlemen for your time...

One thing to remember, this is an art, not a science. I am not by any means discounting what Joe told you, pasted strops can be a great way to keep your razors sharp. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but be consistent when you are learning to remove the variables.
No one has all the answers, or I should say the "only" answer.

 

[Scotto]

This is really great information, guys. Keep it up!

 

[AFDavis11]

Thanx Laz,

I just finished my honing cycles with the stainless blade on the Norton 4/8. I shaved in the middle of the action to try to keep track of what I was doing. I used about 5 cycles all together. 3-4 passes on the 4,000 and then maybe 20-30 on the 8,000. After I was done I started shaving. I went back to the hone 3 times during the shave which took me about 40 minutes. I remember when it took that long without honing...Atleast by the end of it my face was well prepped. I was able to shave pretty well, not great but no redness and a decent shave. I needed to touch up a little with my well sharpened straight afterwards. In the beginning it pulled and jumped on my face, but after a few cycles got pretty smooth. I was able to use some pressure (whilst shaving), which seems to help me get a closer shave. I assume using pressure while shaving is ok as long as the blade is smooth. Overall I was pretty let down on how easy the whole thing was. Your right about the cycles they have some odd effect on the process.

I did use some pressure on the hone in the beginning but I noticed that at one point only half the bevel (the half away from the edge) was getting smooth on the 8,000 which I assumed was because of the pressure and so I backed off a little. Gotta love those microscopes. Then most of the bevel started getting smooth.

I may be imagining things but I think the left side of my face got smoother than the right. which makes me wonder about a bevel inbalance of some sort.

I plan on doing a few more cycles on the blade today and shave again in the A.M. It seems like it is very close to shaving very well with only the Norton, which is a great start.

I did as you suggested and placed the hone up high near my eye level that helped a little. I think I may start honing standing up instead of sitting. I don't have very good eyesight close in so I may use my reading glasses today.

I'm not the kind of guy who is looking for baby close shaves, just smooth with a reduction in skin tearing I get from modern shaves.

So that moves us to question 141...when is the best sign to stop honing, just shave and then hone and shave and stop when you hit the "best" shave?

140...What is the signifigance of the hone "sucking" on the blade? I know thats a good sign but I'm not sure what to do about it. Some have said to stop honing and some say...no keep going...then when do I stop?

139...I'm a tad confused on the Swaty. Not that I'm using it but I'm just curious...it is a hard stone that cuts fast? I thought it cut slow...

138...if I do have some kind of inbalance in the bevel should I try to hone it more on one side than the other? Both sides seemed to push water off the Norton so I'm tempted to just press with my game plan.

137...you use some pressure when you shave? Seems to work as long as I remove all the little nicks

136/135...after I got done lapping the Norton there were still some black streaks in both sides. I assume thats steel residue. I suppose I should remove all that too right? Does the wet/dry sandpaper need to be replaced after each use?

Sorry, as I said my question aren't in any particular order...

 

[Joe Lerch]

Laz gave a great response. I'm just going to fill in from my point of view. See below.

AFDavis11 So on the razors that I have that are shaving poorly on one in particular I see a rough spot that I don't like very much. Its a big rough spot, no longer really deep, i honed it down but still not even. I have honed it down considerably but the rough spot still remains. Should I consider tipping the spine up to hone it completely flat? And should I consider tipping any other razors to get the edge flat or should I stick with an x pattern or circlular honing and always a flat spine? I'd say the erupted section is about 1/4 the depth of the edge right now. It started at 3/4.

Laz, with his experience, can lift the spine, I don't recommend it at your stage. I also don't recommend going below a 1K grit. There's just too much room to screw things up. For a bad nick, you can go to the 1K and put tape on the spine. Remove the tape when you leave the 1K. You could use the 4K and circular strokes. I've done it, but it's a lot of work with a 4K. Since, it's slower, you have more control over what's going on. Work the blade evenly on both sides until you can't see the nick. Then do the thumbnail test. If you feel a bump move to the 4K and hone normally, checking frequently, until the bump disappears, then move to the 8K.

Look under a microscope at 100x and see if the are any microscopic chips or unevenness. There usually is. Hone both sides, checking frequently. When the edge is even and the fin is continuous, you should be done. Do a thumb test. The edge should be sharp. Move on to stropping.

I participated in a thread recently where a guy had a shaving razor, but just couldn't get it keen. At 100x it showed micro chips, and no amount of honing, even on fine pastes, was able to remove them. It turned out that the edge had somehow deteriorated and was crumbling microscopically. The problem was solved by re-forming the edge to get down to good metal. At that point even after just the 8K, the edge looked good at 100x.

So to summarize question 144 is, should I ever lift the spine to flaten a blade edge out and restart if ordinary honing is seeming to fail to ever get the blade edge flat?

I wouldn't because it's too easy to hone the edge on an angle that way. For a deep chip I would tape the spine and hone flat with circular motions, and keep an eye out to make sure the edge is an even strip. The only thing preventing it would be un-even pressure. When you take the tape off the spine and edge will be parallel with minimum wear on the spine.

Next question is...143, ofcourse. What are the causes of those little chips in the edge? I'm seeing those on my new razors as well as the old ones. My suspicions are that Im honing with an unclean hone and sometimes I hear the blade seem to hit something as it moves down the hone, second every once in a while I sort of "drop" the edge on the hone as I flip the blade over on the spine and it hits the hone kinda hard. Would that be enough to cause the blade to micro break? And are there any other things I should look out for that a honing fool might do to cause those little chips? Honing them out is great fun but I'd like to stop them from happening if possible.

There are a number of possibilities. Most likely is rough handling, as Laz points out. But if it's an Ebay razor or it hasn't been honed in a long time, it could be edge deterioration, such as through microscopic rust formation, as above.

On to question 142, Joe, for the blade that is shaving well I'm sure you can imagine I don't want to screw it up and I have hidden it from the other razors and the Norton but the Swaty would be perfect for it and will soon need to be refreshed. My Swaty came with the original directions and it didnt say anything about using lather or water on the hone. So is it just used dry? Also, its old like, 40 years old, and it has what appears to be streams running through it so its not exactly flat. I gave a half attempt at flattening it with wet/dry sand paper but it didn't seem to respond much. Maybe its too hard and low grit. It has worked at improving an edge once very well but typically not too often. I think it only works on near shaving razors.

Swatys are not easy to lap. You really need a coarser stone to do it. If it's grooved, I wouldn't mess with it. Why put unnecessary hurdles in your way?Put it on Ebay and get another one that looks good. You can get nice Swaty types from Tilly in beautiful condition. She's running a special now where she has a starter set of 3 for $28. Barber hones are used dry, wet or with lather, depending on how aggressive you want it to be. The order I gave was for decreasing aggressivenes. If you're in the middle of shaving and the razor pulls a little, use lather. It's the way my old time barber used to do it. Don't use oil.

The Swaty is intended for refreshing a near shave ready razor. Since it gives a fine finish and is relatively fast, you can also use it for finishing if you're careful.

142...Should I use a Swaty dry and is it ok if its got little groove worn into it?

See above. Don't mess with it. It's a false economy.

So for today, the Norton and one of my blades with just small nicks in it...this one is stainless I think so it may take awile...but I'll lap the Norton first and try some work on it. This one has given me some great shaves at one point but I seemed to have lost the edge on it. I find it hard to know when the razor is good, I have overhoned in the past. I'll work on the thumb tests, Joe, also.

How coarse is your Carborundum? If you suspect overhoning, a microscope test or thumbnail test will uncover it. If you use the thumbnail you may have to do a little more fine honing to get the edge back, if it's not overhoned.

To help calibrate your thumb, get a fresh razor blade and learn how a sharp edge feels, not only how the edge grabs. When you're first learning you can keep the razor blade around as a guide. Another thing that helps is to test more frequently when you're first learning. You can actually feel the edge sharpening up.

I highly recomment that you go to straightedgerazors.com and do a search in the genral forum for "scratch." There's a great thread on scratch lines that includes microscope shots of an Ebay razor as it progresses through each sharpening stage towards becoming keen.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Thanx Laz,

I just finished my honing cycles with the stainless blade on the Norton 4/8. I shaved in the middle of the action to try to keep track of what I was doing. I used about 5 cycles all together. 3-4 passes on the 4,000 and then maybe 20-30 on the 8,000.

You can try reducing the number on the 8000 and test shave. Ain't gonna hurt, trust me.

After I was done I started shaving. I went back to the hone 3 times during the shave which took me about 40 minutes. I remember when it took that long without honing...Atleast by the end of it my face was well prepped. I was able to shave pretty well, not great but no redness and a decent shave. I needed to touch up a little with my well sharpened straight afterwards. In the beginning it pulled and jumped on my face, but after a few cycles got pretty smooth. I was able to use some pressure (whilst shaving), which seems to help me get a closer shave. I assume using pressure while shaving is ok as long as the blade is smooth. Overall I was pretty let down on how easy the whole thing was. Your right about the cycles they have some odd effect on the process.

Wierd about the lower/higher/lower/higher, huh? But it does work...
I know some poeple just lather up and shave, that's the extent to their prep. If you have no problem using pressure on yoru face, then it works for you. I prefer to use less.

I

did use some pressure on the hone in the beginning but I noticed that at one point only half the bevel (the half away from the edge) was getting smooth on the 8,000 which I assumed was because of the pressure and so I backed off a little. Gotta love those microscopes. Then most of the bevel started getting smooth.

I may be imagining things but I think the left side of my face got smoother than the right. which makes me wonder about a bevel inbalance of some sort.

I don't know. I aways get a seemingly smoother shave on my right side, and I shave only right handed. I always attributed it to the one handed shaving I do.

I plan on doing a few more cycles on the blade today and shave again in the A.M. It seems like it is very close to shaving very well with only the Norton, which is a great start.

Once you get a bit more practice on the Norton,you'll notice your shave will improve.

I did as you suggested and placed the hone up high near my eye level that helped a little. I think I may start honing standing up instead of sitting. I don't have very good eyesight close in so I may use my reading glasses today.

I like to tell beginners to lay the Norton on something, and use one hand to draw the razor in an X-pattern so they can concentrate on solely the razor.

I'm not the kind of guy who is looking for baby close shaves, just smooth with a reduction in skin tearing I get from modern shaves.

So that moves us to question 141...when is the best sign to stop honing, just shave and then hone and shave and stop when you hit the "best" shave?

When you can cut hairs on your forearm by drawingthe razor in your hair, but above the skin. Thats my personal benchmark.

140...What is the signifigance of the hone "sucking" on the blade? I know thats a good sign but I'm not sure what to do about it. Some have said to stop honing and some say...no keep going...then when do I stop?

Try on your own. There are so many different razor grinds, different "feel" we all have on how we hold the razors. If you get the sucking feeling, I suggest strop and test shave. See if that is a benchmark for you.

139...I'm a tad confused on the Swaty. Not that I'm using it but I'm just curious...it is a hard stone that cuts fast? I thought it cut slow...

My experience shows it is a slow cutter, because it is a very fine grit stone. But then again, they should be used as a touch up only, restoring a bevel will take you a few generations....

138...if I do have some kind of inbalance in the bevel should I try to hone it more on one side than the other? Both sides seemed to push water off the Norton so I'm tempted to just press with my game plan.

Look at the water in front of the blade as you hone. If the edge is truly flat on the hone, then it is as true as it can get. If there are any gaps in the water, like water is seeping under the blade, then more honing to get the bevel flat is needed.

137...you use some pressure when you shave? Seems to work as long as I remove all the little nicks

I like to use as little pressure as will cut whiskers. But then again,there is always the hollows on the sides of my Adam''s Apple that need a bit of extra pressure and angle to get smooth, so YMMV.

136/135...after I got done lapping the Norton there were still some black streaks in both sides. I assume thats steel residue. I suppose I should remove all that too right? Does the wet/dry sandpaper need to be replaced after each use?

Yes, the black sreaks are steel particles. I find my Norton works best when it has a clean surface to work with. You don't have to lap on sandpaper each time, a plastic or nylon souring pad will work fine. Wet/Dry sandpaper will work as long as it is intact. If the sand particles get rubbed off, then the paper will disintigrate with use, so just wet the counter, andlay your sheet flat again. But do make sure you rinse the sheet of after using it.

Sorry, as I said my question aren't in any particular order...

No problem, ask away!

 

[Joe Lerch]

I just finished my honing cycles with the stainless blade on the Norton 4/8. I shaved in the middle of the action to try to keep track of what I was doing. I used about 5 cycles all together. 3-4 passes on the 4,000 and then maybe 20-30 on the 8,000. After I was done I started shaving. I went back to the hone 3 times during the shave which took me about 40 minutes. I remember when it took that long without honing...Atleast by the end of it my face was well prepped. I was able to shave pretty well, not great but no redness and a decent shave. I needed to touch up a little with my well sharpened straight afterwards. In the beginning it pulled and jumped on my face, but after a few cycles got pretty smooth. I was able to use some pressure (whilst shaving), which seems to help me get a closer shave. I assume using pressure while shaving is ok as long as the blade is smooth. Overall I was pretty let down on how easy the whole thing was. Your right about the cycles they have some odd effect on the process.

All of that back and forth is the reason you need to develope your thumb. You want to have a high probability that you won't need to go back to honing after shaving.

Being an experienced DE shaver, I can say unequivocally that str8 shaving requires some (not a lot) pressure. Once the razor is shaving pressing harder to shave closer has a negative effect. You beging removing skin and producing irritation. So, as a general rule I try to minimize pressure, even if it means doing an extra pass or touchup. Another thing is the blade angle. It seems to be written in stone that the angle should be 30 degrees. I use the DE approach. I find the flattest angle that will cut and back off slightly. It might require a little more stretching, but for me it allows close shaving with minimum pressure.

I did as you suggested and placed the hone up high near my eye level that helped a little. I think I may start honing standing up instead of sitting. I don't have very good eyesight close in so I may use my reading glasses today.

I read somewhere, I think it was the straightrazors site that the height of the hone affects which end of the blade you hone more. That suggests that for each person there's a height that's just right. Why not experiment?

question 141...when is the best sign to stop honing, just shave and then hone and shave and stop when you hit the "best" shave?

When the razor grabs on the thumb test (and you can feel the edge), go to the strop, then shave. Or look in the microscope at 100x. If the edge looks straight and the fin is continuous, strop and shave.

140...What is the signifigance of the hone "sucking" on the blade? I know thats a good sign but I'm not sure what to do about it. Some have said to stop honing and some say...no keep going...then when do I stop?

It is good. It shows that the sides of the edge are getting smooth. It means the scratch lines are small, which should result in less friction against the skin. It doesn't mean that the fin is straight and continuous (usually that's the case), so I can't agree that it's a sign to stop. Let's just say it's a good sign and that you should do another test (thumb, microscope) to confirm completeness.

139...I'm a tad confused on the Swaty. Not that I'm using it but I'm just curious...it is a hard stone that cuts fast? I thought it cut slow...

It's fine , hard and fast. If you do the search at straighedgerazors.com, you'll find another thread in which there are microscope shots of different hones. The Swaty seems to have a rough terrain even thought the grit is very fine.

138...if I do have some kind of inbalance in the bevel should I try to hone it more on one side than the other? Both sides seemed to push water off the Norton so I'm tempted to just press with my game plan.

I'm not sure if it would make a difference, but it can't hurt to make the two sides of the edge the same width.

137...you use some pressure when you shave? Seems to work as long as I remove all the little nicks

See above.

136/135...after I got done lapping the Norton there were still some black streaks in both sides. I assume thats steel residue. I suppose I should remove all that too right? Does the wet/dry sandpaper need to be replaced after each use?

I find that the easiest way to clean the stone is with a pumice stone and water. You can get a good one from classicshaving.com, and it has universal use, including conditioning the surface of a strop.

There's so much information here that it might makesense at some point to compile the questions and answers into a document.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

It's fine , hard and fast. If you do the search at straighedgerazors.com, you'll find another thread in which there are microscope shots of different hones. The Swaty seems to have a rough terrain even thought the grit is very fine.

The "terrain" doesn't cut the steel off of a blade, Joe, the "peaks" is what does it. The actual abrasive that touches the steel. Ever see a DMT diamond hone, with the little circles of plastic slightly recessed in the steel plate that holds the diamonds?

 

[Joe Lerch]

The "terrain" doesn't cut the steel off of a blade, Joe, the "peaks" is what does it. The actual abrasive that touches the steel. Ever see a DMT diamond hone, with the little circles of plastic slightly recessed in the steel plate that holds the diamonds?

This is the microscopic terrain which is the same thing as the peaks. The grit is fine, but the surface is rough and uneven, so you get fine scratch lines and fast material removal. Look at the microscope pictures.

Some stones with a similar grit have a very flat terrain and cut very slowly. So, the terrain seems to be a determining factor.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

The "roughness" you see is the highs and lows of the surface. I still stick with the logic that it is the abrasive alone, and the valleys of the terrain don't make a difference. It doesn't matter if the peaks are 1 micron or 1 inch above the valleys. What isn't there cannot cut.

Regardless of terrain, two hones with the same size abrasive particles will cut about the same. One can clog faster, but the metal particles honed off in each pass are much smaller than the "valleys", so it is not as if the volume of the valleys/height of the peaks makes a difference.

If the roughness of the terrain was a factor, how do you explain the fact that pasted strops work? The surface of the pasted strops (the medium holding the abrasive paste) is not nearly as strong as a Swaty hone, or any hone for that matter. The medium of the paste wears away with time, much faster than any hone, even a waterstone.

 

[AFDavis11]

Well Gentlemen,

Luckily questions 134-128 are about stropping...

134...I've noticed while stropping that at times I hear a screeching sound coming from the razor, sometimes its only on one side, and sometimes it's both sides. Is this a good sign or a bad sign, do I want both sides to screech or neither side to screech

133...Do either of you strop on finer and finer sets of leather for the best shave...or say strop on levi jeans or newspaper as a "final' stropping?

132...Should the razor "pull" on the strop or should it glide easily?

131...Just how many strokes do you both actually pull on the strop before shaving

130...Do you apply cream on your face and then strop?

129...Do either of you strop both before and after shaving?

And finally...

128...Which strop would you consider your favorite? Brand etc...

 

[Joe Lerch]

The "roughness" you see is the highs and lows of the surface. I still stick with the logic that it is the abrasive alone, and the valleys of the terrain don't make a difference. It doesn't matter if the peaks are 1 micron or 1 inch above the valleys. What isn't there cannot cut.

Regardless of terrain, two hones with the same size abrasive particles will cut about the same. One can clog faster, but the metal particles honed off in each pass are much smaller than the "valleys", so it is not as if the volume of the valleys/height of the peaks makes a difference.

If the roughness of the terrain was a factor, how do you explain the fact that pasted strops work? The surface of the pasted strops (the medium holding the abrasive paste) is not nearly as strong as a Swaty hone, or any hone for that matter. The medium of the paste wears away with time, much faster than any hone, even a waterstone.

What can I say? It's pretty well accepted that a Swaty is a fast fine hone, good for touchups but not really finishing. And there are similarly fine hones that are slow. When the pictures are considered, there is a direct relationship between roughness of the terrain and how fast something cuts. I didn't make it up. They're pictures of physical objects showing features that account for the differences in performance. Here's a link http://www.straightedgerazors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49&highlight=scratch.

I can think of a possible explanation. Suppose you took the fine particles and clustered them to make little plateaus and valleys to simulate a 1K grit pattern. The individual grits would still give fine scratch lines, but the clusters would act like a coarser stone. I don't know if that's an accurate description, but performance and the pictures of the terrain are correllated. And the fact remains that two hones with the same size particles cut at vastly different rates.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

It's pretty well accepted that a Swaty is a fast fine hone, good for touchups but not really finishing. And there are similarly fine hones that are slow.

I don't know what Swaty you have, but the ones I have, in fact, all the barber hones I have I would consider slow cutting. You are the first one I have ever heard call the Swaty fast cutting.
If they were fast cutting, I could throw away my Norton 220/1000, DMT 1200 grit hone, etc.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Well Gentlemen,

Luckily questions 134-128 are about stropping...

134...I've noticed while stropping that at times I hear a screeching sound coming from the razor, sometimes its only on one side, and sometimes it's both sides. Is this a good sign or a bad sign, do I want both sides to screech or neither side to screech

Screech? Never heard that one, but a low scratching noise on some razors, thinner ground ones, I have heard.

133...Do either of you strop on finer and finer sets of leather for the best shave...or say strop on levi jeans or newspaper as a "final' stropping?

I have a strop I made from Handamerican leather, one side plain, the other side the Russian finish. I mostly use the plain side. I don't use any linen for stropping, other do. I won't even *touch* that subject here.... It's a religious level debate, trust me.

132...Should the razor "pull" on the strop or should it glide easily?

Depends on the strop. Some of the newer, Russian finishes are quite slick, and glide right along. I have an old Genco strop that has a very slight "nap" that makes the razor drag a bit.

131...Just how many strokes do you both actually pull on the strop before shaving

Usually 20 per side.

130...Do you apply cream on your face and then strop?

Yep. As I get prep for my shave, the cream goes on first, pit stick, brush my hair, Qtip the water from my ears, then I strop. Another application of some more hot lather, then I put my boxers, socks and pants on, then I shave.

129...Do either of you strop both before and after shaving?

I don't.I just make sure my razor is dry.

And finally...

128...Which strop would you consider your favorite? Brand etc...

I have my own I made. But there is a special place in my heart for my Genco strop, I love Genco/Geneva razors.

 

[AFDavis11]

Ok, I gotta admit your prep paragraph was interesting but that image of you lathering up and then putting your boxers on has me glad that questions 127 through 122 are about razors

127...whats your favorite razor?

126...if you had to start all over again tomorrow, but you knew what you know now, which razor would you buy first?

125...what do you think of the 1/2 hollow razors available from T/I, I've heard they are hard to hone but worth a try, any thoughts?

124...what is your opinion on stainless, worth the hassle, what hassle?, or why put up with the hassle?...

123...whats your thought on width...I'm not a big fan of 6/8ths or bigger but that might be my lack of experience (I only own one). ????

122...I'm a big fan of new razors over Ebay...which do you prefer..T/I or Dovo?

121...I'm going to spend the next 3 days watching Ebay and throw all my money on one razor and try to snipe it away from someone, what brand of razor would you suggest I shoot for? (I never said I was ethical )

 

[Joe Lerch]

I don't know what Swaty you have, but the ones I have, in fact, all the barber hones I have I would consider slow cutting. You are the first one I have ever heard call the Swaty fast cutting.
If they were fast cutting, I could throw away my Norton 220/1000, DMT 1200 grit hone, etc.

Compared to those hones they're definitely slow, but the Swatey is a fine hone, and compared to other fine hones it's fast.

Who do you trust on hones? Hal Wilson? If so, I'll show you what he says. Just let me know.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Who do you trust on hones? Hal Wilson? If so, I'll show you what he says. Just let me know.

I trust my own experiences more than those of other people. Sorry if I am sounding rude, but I am a sceptical kinda guy.