Hi Laz

[Laz in Tampa]

I keep seeing questions about this with no real answer: Why do you use the x-pattern? I have a 3" stone and the result looks exactly the same as the x-pattern microscopically if you hone straight across the stone with a heel leading tilt.

I researched this and have found no answer. To me it seems historical because only small, narrow stones were used by barbers.

Here's my answer:
Because I like to. It works for me. It's more of a "works for most blades" kind of answer. Ever try honing a full bellied razor or a rounded edge keeping the blade on the hone the whole time? All you'll get is a flat bellied razor.
Using the X-pattern, you will ensure that the entire length of the razor is scraped uniformly over the honing surface. Not all razors have a perfectly flat and straight edge.

 

[Joe Lerch]

Ever try honing a full bellied razor or a rounded edge keeping the blade on the hone the whole time? All you'll get is a flat bellied razor. Using the X-pattern, you will ensure that the entire length of the razor is scraped uniformly over the honing surface. Not all razors have a perfectly flat and straight edge.

I don't hone a bellied blade with the x-pattern. I use a kind of pivoting movement on the blade, rotating the blade through an arc while also sliding it. I guess it's a variant of th x-pattern. That's definitely one time it seems necessary to do something other than a straight across pattern.

Have you ever seen a description that says the x-pattern is preferred for ordinary honing? I've seen some that say it doesn't make a difference. That's why I thought it might just be historical. Some German sites show two-handed honing straight across. It might be a little cumbersome using two hands for the x-pattern.

The German method produces a scratch pattern that's perpendicular to the edge, like a machine honed edge. I have seen some references that say an angled scratch pattern is preferred because it gives you a fin that's like the edge of a saw.

I don't have that many wide stones, so I generally use the x-pattern.

 

[AFDavis11]

Hi, Laz-Thanx

116. Do you ever shave with the blade at a high angle, say 80-90 degrees. It seems that sometimes it helps me get closer if I do this, but I'm not sure. Is it just my imagination? Do you always shave every part of your face at a 30 degree angle.

115. I'm finding the left side of my face is getting a little torn up. Do you use a cross handed technique or do you switch hands and do you find that cross passes damage skin?

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?

113. On a point tip blade do you hone it at a 90 degree angle (the tip) to prevent cutting your skin?

112. I'm finding the Norton seems to work different after I soak it for about 2 hours. Seems water is coming out of the stone as I hone. Is this better?

111. If I put lather on a stone does that "lower" the grit or slow the cutting action?

110. I'm picking up some important feedback on the strop when I strop a sharp blade, it feels like I can tell its sharp. I can't exactly explain it but it has more pull, it feels like I"m stropping a sharp razor and it sounds different. Any other good feed back clues I can use.

109. I'm still perplexed on when to stop...is this learned from shaving or is there some knowledge involved...I get a good shave and then think, maybe it should be better, subsequent honing makes the razor suck (overhoned). It seems to go from shaving so so..to shaving bad. Never seems to get to just right...any ideas.

108. How can I lap a Swaty?

107. If I have a hone how do I tell what it's grit is and where it should fall in my honing?

BTW...I'm getting pretty good with my Norton now. I used pressure on the last blade and actually saw the edge break under a microscope...I'm beginning to understand the whole "how much pressure when" routine of honing. Thanx

 

[Joe Lerch]

I'm just going to answer the ones where I can contribute to.

116. Do you ever shave with the blade at a high angle, say 80-90 degrees. It seems that sometimes it helps me get closer if I do this, but I'm not sure. Is it just my imagination? Do you always shave every part of your face at a 30 degree angle.

There's a classical technique for shaving under the nose. It has a French name, which I've forgotten. You hold the blade perpendicular to the skin and rotate it down as you make contact and move down. That lets you get under the nose.

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?

That's always been a problem for me because I need to shve forward under the jaw to go countergrain. I use the opposite hand and the heel of the blade. It's a little nerve wracking, because I have that big section of the front of the blade projecting out into the air. If I stretch diligently I can shave smoothly without irritation.

111. If I put lather on a stone does that "lower" the grit or slow the cutting action?

You can't change the grit of the stone that way. If you lok at the scratch pattern it will always be the same. But using lather reduces the friction and cuts more slowly.

109. I'm still perplexed on when to stop...is this learned from shaving or is there some knowledge involved...I get a good shave and then think, maybe it should be better, subsequent honing makes the razor suck (overhoned). It seems to go from shaving so so..to shaving bad. Never seems to get to just right...any ideas.

There's not a lot of information here, but what I thought of is testing more frequently. As long as the razor is improving, you're doing the right thing. When it stops so should you.

108. How can I lap a Swaty?

I use a Little Devil hone (from Tilly), but I've also used 1K sandpaper on a heavy tile.

 

[Rik]

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?

Greetings Alan,

After much experimentation, here's what I've found works best for me. I do this area in two passes, both ear to chin.

First pass is for the area on the jawbone. Pull skin taught from above using same side hand (left hand for left side of face). Using opposite hand draw razor from ear to chin just above the jawbone using heal of blade with the toe pointing to the ceiling.

Re lather

Second Pass is for the area just below the jawbone. Pull skin taught at base of neck with opposite hand. Using razor in same side hand (left hand for left side of face) draw the razor ear to chin just below jawbone using the toe of the blade (toe of blade pointing to the floor). The razor must be a round tip for obvious reasons.

Both of these motions will feel very awkward at first. Because of this, If you feel uncomfortable at any point, put the razor down and only retry if your comfort level returns. These are not motions that you want to rush. After time they will become second nature.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I do pretty much the same thing as you, but I'm curious why you flip the razor around on the second pass so you end up using both the heel and the toe.

I use three passes, and on the third pass I shave atrip along the jawline and from that I go down on the neck, stretching the skin flat. I find that this last pass cleans the last remnants of stubble off the neck.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Have you ever seen a description that says the x-pattern is preferred for ordinary honing? I've seen some that say it doesn't make a difference. That's why I thought it might just be historical. Some German sites show two-handed honing straight across. It might be a little cumbersome using two hands for the x-pattern.

It all boils down to what works for you. Some things just don't seem to make sense, but actually do work. Logically, it makes sense to me that holding a blade entirely on the hone for the full stroke *should* work best, but I personally get best results using the X-pattern.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Hi, Laz-Thanx

116. Do you ever shave with the blade at a high angle, say 80-90 degrees. It seems that sometimes it helps me get closer if I do this, but I'm not sure. Is it just my imagination? Do you always shave every part of your face at a 30 degree angle.

I never use that steep of an angle. Sometimes I use a slightly higher angle, 40 at most, for the hollows of my neck.

115. I'm finding the left side of my face is getting a little torn up. Do you use a cross handed technique or do you switch hands and do you find that cross passes damage skin?

I shave only right handed. I never felt the need to tempt fate enough to try to cut my own throat left handed. jk. I only use my right hand. I just don't feel comfortable using my left. I have learned different grips to over come this.

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?

Yep. My jawline calls for one pass down, and the second across.

113. On a point tip blade do you hone it at a 90 degree angle (the tip) to prevent cutting your skin?

I have a Red Imp that's truly evil. It will cut me just by being in the same room with it, or thinking about shaving with it. But no, I don't dull the tip. The pain from the cut, and the scar, is a lasting reminder to ALWAYS watch where the tip is.

112. I'm finding the Norton seems to work different after I soak it for about 2 hours. Seems water is coming out of the stone as I hone. Is this better?

Some people keep thier Nortons soaked in water even while storing them. Only downside I have heard is that one guy's epoxy gave out and he had to re-glue the two sides together. Does it work better? I dunno. If you notice it working better, then by all means keep them soaked.

111. If I put lather on a stone does that "lower" the grit or slow the cutting action?

Slows the cutting action. The lather acts as a lubricant between the steel and the hone.

110. I'm picking up some important feedback on the strop when I strop a sharp blade, it feels like I can tell its sharp. I can't exactly explain it but it has more pull, it feels like I"m stropping a sharp razor and it sounds different. Any other good feed back clues I can use.

Get a known dull blade and strop it. Then strop one of your "sharp" blades. Learn the difference.

109. I'm still perplexed on when to stop...is this learned from shaving or is there some knowledge involved...I get a good shave and then think, maybe it should be better, subsequent honing makes the razor suck (overhoned). It seems to go from shaving so so..to shaving bad. Never seems to get to just right...any ideas.

Huh, so I ain't the only one who dies this? haha. I still suffer from this malady- know when a good shave is a good shave, and learn to leave well enough alone. Try shaving with a different razor the next day, or shave half your face with two different razors. That's one way you can compare how good a shave a razor gives, and when and if it needs some tune up.

108. How can I lap a Swaty?

With a laser beam or maybe a proton accelerator. Those Swaty's are hard as anything. Wet/dry sandpaper, or -- another Swaty. If you use another Swaty, make sure you do it under some running water.

107. If I have a hone how do I tell what it's grit is and where it should fall in my honing?

Ask away if you have a name of the hone, otherwise you will need to hone on it and then comapre it side by side with a razor honed with a known grit, using a microscope, or if you are feeling brave, shaving with it.
The old barber hones, unfortunately, never really were rated "grit" wise like modern hones are.

BTW...I'm getting pretty good with my Norton now. I used pressure on the last blade and actually saw the edge break under a microscope...I'm beginning to understand the whole "how much pressure when" routine of honing. Thanx

Very good! Making mistakes is part of learning. You gotta remember what works when and when to avoid the "this doesn't work" part.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I have a Red Imp that's truly evil. It will cut me just by being in the same room with it, or thinking about shaving with it. But no, I don't dull the tip. The pain from the cut, and the scar, is a lasting reminder to ALWAYS watch where the tip is.

Thanks for the warning. I just got one.

learn to leave well enough alone.

An eternal affliction...

 

[AFDavis11]

Great advice guys,

I'm going to have to re-read this thread a couple of times just to learn all the stuff you guys are teaching me. Lets see...where am I on the list...ok

106. What the heck is a pumice stone for? Hone or strop or both?

105. This morning I concluding that my strop was not positioned correctly. It sits so I hold one end way up high and the other end is way low, it occured to me that the strop should be parallel to the floor to ensure the full weight (even if thats a very little weight) is riding on the strop. Makes sense or am I losing it?

104. Your going camping for 3 months (hiking too) and you want to bring shaving stuff. What would you bring? Lets assume one hone, one razor, and one strop. What would you bring and what would you want to bring that I'm not letting you?

103. I assume you own lots of stuff for shaving. Lets assume you do anyway. What are some of the things that you would like to buy but haven't yet? I'm really not interested in some $8000 Damascus razor. What if anything would you like to get next and why? Stuff in the normal price range that you are interested in but just haven't gotten yet.

102. You accidentally lose all your shaving stuff. Your on a really tight budget but want to be able to shave for the next year. What would you go out and buy IF... you had $50, you had $100, you had $200 and no other money budgeted for shaving for the year.

101. Whats your favorite shave cream preparatory procedure, by product and process? You can skip the boxers part.

100. Whats your typical daily process for question 101? (as opposed to your favorite procedure) Cream/Soap? Brand? Shave oil?

OK, thats good for tonight...wait last one....

99. It hits you, this guy really is having a hard time catching all the ins and outs of shaving with a straight razor (I get some good shaves, some great, some sucky). Anyway, you decide to mail me one book, resource, one basic reference to read/study. What would that be? Keeping in mind that I get a lot of varied info on websites...one question and 10 answers (and I get confused)...so until YOU write Straight Razor Shaving for Dummies, what book would you send?

Alan

 

[Joe Lerch]

ok

106. What the heck is a pumice stone for? Hone or strop or both?

It's good for both. The one classic shaving sells is beautiful and flat.

105. This morning I concluding that my strop was not positioned correctly. It sits so I hold one end way up high and the other end is way low, it occured to me that the strop should be parallel to the floor to ensure the full weight (even if thats a very little weight) is riding on the strop. Makes sense or am I losing it?

I have seen them used every which way. I once had an old barber who was a master shaver. He used to hold it with about a 15 degree upward slant. I think it's a matther of what feels best. I only used paddles, but when I used a hanging strop i used to use a very steep angle withthe hooked end lower. Assuming the surface of the strop is in good condition, the most important feature is tha you keep it from sagging and rounding the edge.

104. Your going camping for 3 months (hiking too) and you want to bring shaving stuff. What would you bring? Lets assume one hone, one razor, and one strop. What would you bring and what would you want to bring that I'm not letting you?

I would take a Feather str8 with a supply of blades.

103. I assume you own lots of stuff for shaving. Lets assume you do anyway. What are some of the things that you would like to buy but haven't yet? I'm really not interested in some $8000 Damascus razor. What if anything would you like to get next and why? Stuff in the normal price range that you are interested in but just haven't gotten yet.

I've got more than I can use now. I don't buy anything I don't intend to use. Usually I buy something that catches my interest when I hear or read about it.

102. You accidentally lose all your shaving stuff. Your on a really tight budget but want to be able to shave for the next year. What would you go out and buy IF... you had $50, you had $100, you had $200 and no other money budgeted for shaving for the year.

I assume you're not counting a brush and soap. $50: a square of leather from Handamerican ($12); a two-sided barber hone from Ebay (15); a useable razor from Ebay ($20). $100: a used strop ($25); a two-sided barber hone ($15); a nice Ebay razor ($60), or a starter kit form Tony Miller. $200: two sided paddle strop ($30); new TI silver steel ($100); Norton 4/8.

100. Whats your typical daily process for question 101? (as opposed to your favorite procedure) Cream/Soap? Brand? Shave oil?

cream (Taylor, Trumpers, AOS, Tabac, Proraso); KOS shave oil for last pass.

99. It hits you, this guy really is having a hard time catching all the ins and outs of shaving with a straight razor (I get some good shaves, some great, some sucky). Anyway, you decide to mail me one book, resource, one basic reference to read/study. What would that be? Keeping in mind that I get a lot of varied info on websites...one question and 10 answers (and I get confused)...so until YOU write Straight Razor Shaving for Dummies, what book would you send?

Chris Moss' book.

 

[Rik]

I do pretty much the same thing as you, but I'm curious why you flip the razor around on the second pass so you end up using both the heel and the toe.

I use three passes, and on the third pass I shave atrip along the jawline and from that I go down on the neck, stretching the skin flat. I find that this last pass cleans the last remnants of stubble off the neck.

I'm able to get under the jaw line better using the toe. I go ear to chin with the flat of the blade tilted 45 degrees from the plane of the floor and the end of the round tip very slightly pressing into my neck. I'd never try it with a spike tip razor!

I've tried both ways and many other approaches and this is what works for me.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Great advice guys,

I'm going to have to re-read this thread a couple of times just to learn all the stuff you guys are teaching me. Lets see...where am I on the list...ok

106. What the heck is a pumice stone for? Hone or strop or both?

It can be used for both.

105. This morning I concluding that my strop was not positioned correctly. It sits so I hold one end way up high and the other end is way low, it occured to me that the strop should be parallel to the floor to ensure the full weight (even if thats a very little weight) is riding on the strop. Makes sense or am I losing it?

You're losing it. No, seriously, I really dont think the position or angle of the strop matters. I have seen them used uphill, downhill, and parallel with the floor.

104. Your going camping for 3 months (hiking too) and you want to bring shaving stuff. What would you bring? Lets assume one hone, one razor, and one strop. What would you bring and what would you want to bring that I'm not letting you?

A professional barber. haha. It would be hard to pick *only* one razor. One hone would be a good dual grit barber hone. Strop would be a paddle strop.
After that, definetly a brush and soap....

103. I assume you own lots of stuff for shaving. Lets assume you do anyway. What are some of the things that you would like to buy but haven't yet? I'm really not interested in some $8000 Damascus razor. What if anything would you like to get next and why? Stuff in the normal price range that you are interested in but just haven't gotten yet.

I like interesting razors, not the super-expensive ones, but stuff that has meaning for me, Like blades made in NY, and/or wording, brand names, that have some sort of significance to me.

102. You accidentally lose all your shaving stuff. Your on a really tight budget but want to be able to shave for the next year. What would you go out and buy IF... you had $50, you had $100, you had $200 and no other money budgeted for shaving for the year.

50- a rabbits foot to bring me good luck to find my stuff
100- a psychic to tell me where I lost it.
200- a private eye to find my stuff if the other two fail.

101. Whats your favorite shave cream preparatory procedure, by product and process? You can skip the boxers part.

First pass- super hot water heated by an immersion heater. I re-lather twice before my first pass. Seconf pass I lather twice with cold water.

100. Whats your typical daily process for question 101? (as opposed to your favorite procedure) Cream/Soap? Brand? Shave oil?

Fav shaving soap is Palmolive lather in a tube.

OK, thats good for tonight...wait last one....

99. It hits you, this guy really is having a hard time catching all the ins and outs of shaving with a straight razor (I get some good shaves, some great, some sucky). Anyway, you decide to mail me one book, resource, one basic reference to read/study. What would that be? Keeping in mind that I get a lot of varied info on websites...one question and 10 answers (and I get confused)...so until YOU write Straight Razor Shaving for Dummies, what book would you send?

Alan

One resourse would be-- a computer with an internet connection. I believe that straight razor shaving is an art, not a science. There are many ways to do the same thing, you just have to find the best answer that works best for you.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I'm able to get under the jaw line better using the toe. I go ear to chin with the flat of the blade tilted 45 degrees from the plane of the floor and the end of the round tip very slightly pressing into my neck. I'd never try it with a spike tip razor!

I've tried both ways and many other approaches and this is what works for me.

I know what you mean. Using the heel when reaching across with the left hand is quite cumbersome. I've tried it yoour way and it's more comfortable, but I find it harder to control the tip at this sensitive spot.

The bottom line is I can often avoid that stroke altogether if I just shave down with an extremely light touch. I'm able to repeat it if necessary. The key seems to be maintaining good contact with the skin and a continuous cut with the razor.

 

[AFDavis11]

Can you guys elaborate a little more on #106. So if I were to use a pumice stone on a hone or a strop tomorrow, what on earth would I be doing and what would be the purpose I would be trying to accomplish. Or what would I be trying to fix by using it? Thanx


Let me throw 98 in here while I'm here.

98....I've got several razors now shaving pretty good with just a hone and my practice (with you'alls help). They are shaving pretty good, close to perfect. Shave, no burn, and leave some stubble, even after 4 passes. I am convinced I can get them just a little better. Do you agree? And more germaine to the question. What would you do from here? How would you get them really shaving right from oh so close?

 

[Laz in Tampa]

Can you guys elaborate a little more on #106. So if I were to use a pumice stone on a hone or a strop tomorrow, what on earth would I be doing and what would be the purpose I would be trying to accomplish. Or what would I be trying to fix by using it? Thanx

Pumice is used to smooth out a rough strop, or maybe you nicked the edge while learning how to strop and need to smooth out that flap of leather. On a hone, it can be used to freshen up the surface, removong all the imbedded metal particles from your honing experiences.
If your strop is smooth, then you probably shouldn't use pumice on it.

Let me throw 98 in here while I'm here.

98....I've got several razors now shaving pretty good with just a hone and my practice (with you'alls help). They are shaving pretty good, close to perfect. Shave, no burn, and leave some stubble, even after 4 passes. I am convinced I can get them just a little better. Do you agree? And more germaine to the question. What would you do from here? How would you get them really shaving right from oh so close?

If they seem to be shaving very well, try changing the way you stretch your skin. That can make a lot of difference. Try stretching from a different direction. Easiest way to test (for me) is to stretch one of my sideburns up, and then shave down. If I feel any stubble after one pass there, I go back to the hone.

 

[AFDavis11]

Cool thanx,

I went to the stone, the Swaty, for 40 laps. Then to some pasted balsa wood for about 20. It helped dramatically, yet I"m not sure if I'm really impressed with the edge just yet. I'll keep working on all of them. BTW, I stilll hate the stainless blade. I wonder if there is any way to wrangle out the average number of passes you need on a razor to get it sharp...just musing out loud.

I'll work on new directions with the blade as well...I didn't use the best prep either....I better try that as well. You know I really think impatience is a REALLY bad quality when it comes to using straight razors...

 

[Joe Lerch]

Cool thanx,

I went to the stone, the Swaty, for 40 laps. Then to some pasted balsa wood for about 20. It helped dramatically, yet I"m not sure if I'm really impressed with the edge just yet. I'll keep working on all of them. BTW, I stilll hate the stainless blade. I wonder if there is any way to wrangle out the average number of passes you need on a razor to get it sharp...just musing out loud.

I'll work on new directions with the blade as well...I didn't use the best prep either....I better try that as well. You know I really think impatience is a REALLY bad quality when it comes to using straight razors...

That's a lot of laps with a Swaty. It's meant to be used for refreshing a razor and it's fast. Typically, 4 laps is enough. I don't know what effect 40 would have. Does the razor seem overhoned?

 

[AFDavis11]

No, it shaved nicely. I did have to use different directions as Laz suggested but I got a nice shave with it. But still, 40 laps didn't seem to have that much effect at all. I was thinking about hitting it with the Norton to get it even sharper.

 

[Laz in Tampa]

No, it shaved nicely. I did have to use different directions as Laz suggested but I got a nice shave with it. But still, 40 laps didn't seem to have that much effect at all. I was thinking about hitting it with the Norton to get it even sharper.

It's still up in the air which stone has a finer grit, the Norton 8000 or the Swaty. If you do use the Norton 8k, please post what you found about the edge, sharper or duller.