Dovo 5/8, current production. Should you get one?

[JPO]

The last thing i need is another Dovo 5/8. However, this one was one sale, so i decided to see how the quality of their current production entry level razors are at. Sample size 1, LOL.

Unboxing and edge inspection.
The edge is a bit rough, but requires little effort to sort out, ref included honing video. It has a concave bevel, so as this is put on a flat stone you will be removing material quite fast, due to the small contact area
This new model has a good geometry and grind. In my eyes there is nothing wrong with this one.

Preliminary honing to see how the edge and geometry felt. Not allot of work was needed to get a shaving edge on this razor.
This razor is on par with what i have bought from Dovo, and exceeded my expectation.

So if this is representative for the current production Dovo razors, i would highly recommend these as beginner razor.
I would not need any more stones to keep this razor going. I even removed the chips during this short honing session.

Since the bevel was already concave, only a small amount of work was put in on the coticule to work on the back of the bevel. This step is of course optional.

Just a side note. When the focus is at the edge, the images gets distorted. So, you loose a sense of scale relative to the bevel size. These chips are not as large as they might seem in the microscope.

 

[Christian1212]

I have not really messed with concave hones but think it is a fun idea. However looking at the original scratches there were a lot of deep looking scratches going almost parallel with the edge. I think that would lead to higher chance of edge failure, and with the bevel being concave it would be flat by the time those scratches were removed. (IMO)

Would be cool to use one of those concave stones on a fat wedge. If I ever get the chance I might make my 5k naniwa a convex hone for fun and testing. As a side note the dovo site says all their razors are shave ready. I have never shaved with their factory edge but wonder how it compares to the edge they give when re honing your straight.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

I do not expect the factory edge to be great. At this price point, nobody will spend a good amount of time to hone it right in a factory, considering they will have to pay extra taxes and the profit margin is low.

However, I am curious to see how the edge looks and shaves like after paying extra for the honing service which is optional on Dovo’s website.

 

[JPO]

I have not really messed with concave hones but think it is a fun idea. However looking at the original scratches there were a lot of deep looking scratches going almost parallel with the edge. I think that would lead to higher chance of edge failure, and with the bevel being concave it would be flat by the time those scratches were removed. (IMO)

Would be cool to use one of those concave stones on a fat wedge. If I ever get the chance I might make my 5k naniwa a convex hone for fun and testing. As a side note the dovo site says all their razors are shave ready. I have never shaved with their factory edge but wonder how it compares to the edge they give when re honing your straight.

The coticule is convex, not concave. The bevel will then be concave. The bevel I ended up with is more or less flat, because the jnat is flat.
The fact that the Dovo bevel is concave makes them really easy to hone, due to the reduced bevel contact area.
The optics are also lying a little. The chips appears bigger then they are. They are not visible without magnification.

All the chips were removed during this short honing session.

 

[JPO]

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[JPO]

I do not expect the factory edge to be great. At this price point, nobody will spend a good amount of time to hone it right in a factory, considering they will have to pay extra taxes and the profit margin is low.

However, I am curious to see how the edge looks and shaves like after paying extra for the honing service which is optional on Dovo’s website.

Yes. That would be interesting.

 

[Christian1212]

I do not expect the factory edge to be great. At this price point, nobody will spend a good amount of time to hone it right in a factory, considering they will have to pay extra taxes and the profit margin is low.

However, I am curious to see how the edge looks and shaves like after paying extra for the honing service which is optional on Dovo’s website.

The response I got from Dovo. Sounds like they use flat stones when sending a razor in for honing (could be me misinterpreting).

 

[JPO]

I just had a shave with the razor.
The razor shaved fine.
It was quite loud and flexible for a small razor.
The included honing video was not intended to show how to hone. It was just included to show what I usually do with a new razor to get a feel for how it feels on a stone.
These natural stones are quite slow compared to synthetics. So, if I had started at 5k it would probably take less time.
To get the last few percentage of performance out of the edge I would have needed to spend a little more time. However, if this had been my first razor, I would probably not have noticed the difference.
Then there is the issue with the steel on some new razors. Some razor needs to be honed a few times before you get to good steel. You then just need to repeat the process.

These thin razor are quite delicate, and we are only removing a few microns of steel. It really shouldn't take much time, especially on a concave bevel. It's almost like creating a micro bevel with a flat stone.

 

[JPO]

The response I got from Dovo. Sounds like they use flat stones when sending a razor in for honing (could be me misinterpreting).

View attachment 1731479

I think she means convex grinding wheel. A spinning disk that wears will become convex, unless it is made from something like a diamond plate. The angular velocity increase from the centre to the edge of the disk. Thus, the disk will become convex.
The bevel I got on this razor, and all the other razors have all been concave.
Just by using a convex disk does not yield a concave bevel, unless you use a slight skew angle, and use enough pressure to flex the grind.
You can even create a concave bevel on a flat stone just by controlling the pressure.
It is however impossible to create the bevel I got on this razor on a concave surface.
These razors a so flexible, that with the typical honing we do by starting with pressure, and finishing with light pressure can achieve the same effect, if done right.
In my video I use a combination of half strokes with pressure and x-strokes with light pressure. This can create this effect. I did not increase my bevel hight, but this is what you risk if you apply too much pressure. You also need a hard stone to avoid digging into the stone. It also needs to be reasonable fine to avoid deeper striations.
All the chips were gone after less then 10 min with a light slurry on a finishing stone. There is no need to 'reset' the bevel on a coarse stone, especially if someone is still learning.

At the end of my first video you can see the evidence that the bevel was concave from the factory. When I put the razor on a flat stone for just a few laps, only the bottom part of the bevel is in contact.

Dovo factory grinding

TI factory grinding/bevel set.

The pressure and the skew angle is what makes the concavity in the bevel.
The ability to do this on a flexible grind is what makes them so good in my opinion. Doing this with a stiffer grind will not work as well. Without the flexibility of the grind you will just dig in to the stone, and go nowhere.
If i hone a stiffer grind the pressure is light from start to finish for regular honing.

 

[JPO]

The response I got from Dovo. Sounds like they use flat stones when sending a razor in for honing (could be me misinterpreting).

View attachment 1731479

Just by honing with a skew angle on a surface where you can manipulate the contact with the edge relative to the spine you can change the bevel angle quite fast.
This also happens on a flat stone as you roll off the edge, if you do it at an angle and control the pressure.
This is also an argument against the use of a convex stone, because it can be quite sensitive to this effect.

It is worth noting here that if you lay a razor on something like a round honing rod, and change the skew angle, the angle will not change at all. However, as you change the skew angle you will be resting on the bevel shoulder, and not have contact over the full length of the bevel plane. As you hone with the skew angle this will change. You will be creating a more acute angle as the new bevel plane is formed.
If you add the fact that you also flex the bevel, you realize why razors from both TI and Dovo come with a taller bevel then what you get after honing it.

So, by grinding away this advantage created by the factory, you are in my opinion creating a worse bevel the you got from the factory.
If you use a flat stone you will already be forming a micro bevel. If you start with a layer of tape on a soft stone, you will probably dig into the stone, and cause more damage to the edge then if you just honed with a naked spine.

 

[Christian1212]

Might of mixed up concave/convex with lazy typing. However how does this added curve make a bevel better, and are there any numbers/test I could see in terms of edge performance?

I could see it being fun to experiment with, or using it on razors with larger bevels (maybe a way to reduce time on future honing sessions). In terms of cutting performance the flat stones have always gotten my razors plenty sharp, and shaving is easy. However if it extended the edge life I could see a reason to have around. Or maybe using it to set a bevel on a warped razor maybe?

 

[JPO]

Might of mixed up concave/convex with lazy typing. However how does this added curve make a bevel better, and are there any numbers/test I could see in terms of edge performance?

The end result is just a more flexible bevel. It also reduces the honing time needed exponentially. You need allot less stones, because you can add allot more pressure without digging into the stone.
It does not give you a better edge if you already have a workable bevel angle in most cases.
There are other reason why i may use a convex stone as part of an progression.
If you understand these basic principles you can even use a flat stone to achieve this.

I would not recommend anyone to start with curved stones without putting in the time required to understand what is going on, and explain why they want to do it. It is not a solution if you already are not able to produce a good edge on a flat stone, unless the geometry is really bad.

When you hone a regular flat bevel, as you progress to finer grits the apex gets more and more difficult to refine, because the pressure is not distributed evenly across the bevel plane. The bevel is stiffer at the base then just behind the edge. The bevel shoulder also act as a fulcrum, and may add to this by lifting the apex off the stone with too much pressure.
On a flat stone you are essentially removing material at an uneven rate along the bevel plane due to the difference in pressure over the bevel. By using slurry on something like a jnat you are essentially cheating this affect a little, because the slurry acts at the front of the bevel.

If you create a little concavity along the bevel plane you will move the contact force towards the cutting edge. You will also be working over a reduced bevel area, which makes the stone cut faster.
This may explain why i was able to remove chips, and rehone the razor with just one slurry dilution on a finishing stone in a short amount of time.
The small amount of concavity you are able to achieve will not make a big difference in the apex width 3 microns behind the cutting edge.

I Just showed what you potentially could do in a really short amount of time when you utilize these basic principles.
The first stone in my honing video was convex, while the next one was flat.
I am not sure what you plan to get out of using a convex stone, but it is not a solution to most honing issues.

 

[JPO]

Back on subject.
In my opinion this new model have gotten an upgrade compared to the previous model.
The entry level model has a grind that is more similar to one of their more premium older models, the 5/8 Prima Klang.
Also, if I compare this to the Böker extra hollow, which is not their entry level razor, I would actually recommend the Dovo over the Böker because of the price. I also prefer Dovo steel over Böker's O1 tool steel.

It would be interesting if someone has any of Dovo's new production larger models to see if they have made the same changes to those.

The only issue I have is that the price have also gone up. They are now priced in the same price range as TI entry level razors.

 

[Gamma]

I'm not a fan of 5/8 razors or full hollows, but if I needed a razor for a trip or a give away I'd buy A Dovo in a heartbeat. I have never been disappointed with shaves from their 5/8 best.... I just don't like narrow width razors, or hollow grinds. But other than they they've always shaved well and they're fairly accessible and the cost is usually approachable.

 

[JPO]

After finishing the honing, and shaving with the razor two times I experienced what I normally run into with new blades. The steel at the toe, and at the heel is not in good condition. I usually need to hone the razor at least two times before the steel is solid.
I was hoping Dovo had sorted this out.
On hard stones you can actually feel it.
I had to reset the edge 4 times after the initial honing before the steel refined evenly from heel to toe. The steel is just crumbling, and the expected hazy jnat finish is not looking like it should in some parts of the bevel.
This is really frustrating, and would probably be difficult for someone buying this as their first razor to overcome.
Even if you get it honed by a "professional ", there is no way for him to know the condition of the steel. So, the new user shaves a couple of times and the edge is dropping off fast.
In my case it was not enough just to remove the factory chipping. Allot more steel needed to come off.

 

[Gamma]

It's not uncommon for hardened and tempered steel that has been ground and edged to need more honing than what the factory provides. There is an old story about a Japanese smith who is known for his Kanna blades and a customer who's new blade keeps chipping...smith tells the guy to sharpen it back a smidge, has to do that 3 times - them voila, the edge is on point.
It's a very common situation at this level of production.

Honing by feedback, as opposed to honing by visual inspection, or by recipe/formula, circumvents the issue entirely. Honing it right the first time avoids a need for subsequent honings but honing it shy of the solution allows one to sneak up on the real edge slowly. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

It's one reason why I tell new users to not learn on their new razor. Overcoming these facts of life is a learned skill, and new users missing it or overshooting is pretty common.
I usually do use harder stones to hone but this can be felt on any stone. Well, I can feel it on any stone. Harder stones will amplify things though, so if someone's sensations are not dialed in then a harder stone might make it easier to sense.

The other thing is, every new blade can be different. I know guys that hone for hire and this story with Dovo's specifically is not as common as it used to be. The Dovo Best blades I've honed were a mixed lot, all honed easy but some needed more attention, which is to be expected. I would assume the frequency of finding blades that need more attention fluctuates and can't be gauged with a microscopic sample size. Some razors, from any mfgr, can hone brilliantly right out of the box, others need some coaxing.

 

[JPO]

Honing by feedback, as opposed to honing by visual inspection, or by recipe/formula, circumvents the issue entirely. Honing it right the first time avoids a need for subsequent honings but honing it shy of the solution allows one to sneak up on the real edge slowly. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Yes, there is a destinkt feedback, and sound when the steel act this way.
You can also see it under a light without magnification.
The older 5/8 models usually came with a small frawn. However, they were also slightly wider. Usually after this frawn was corrected you had removed enough steel to get to good steel. These newer blades are almost perfectly straight. The most valuable part of the steel should be preserved as long as possible. I am not sure if this new grinding they do is an improvement.
As mentioned, the weak steel is at the heel and toe. So, allot of extra grinding to get a straight edge might came at a cost in steel quality.
I had the exact same problem with three Böker razors. It is not a large sample size, but I am starting to see a trend at least.
I have not seen this on TI razors yet.

It is not a big issue. However, I think allot of new users learing to hone without having a reference might find it hard to pick up on this.

 

[Gamma]

I think that, unless someone is working with a huge sample size of maybe 1000s of razors of one specific line/brand/etc, it's a bit too ambitious to say how things were, or are, in an absolute sense. For all anyone knows, what seems to be a trend today or right now, or from a specific production run, might revert into something else tomorrow.
FWIW - I have had a fair share of Best blades years back that had no frown and no warp. There were other oddities though. People like to make mountains out of molehills though, so anything outside of perfect become forum fodder for a FUD campaign.

As noted, the phenomenon is not unusual. It's a big part of why it is suggested to learn how to hone with used razors.

What might be viewed as a distraction stems from what I refer to as "the cost of doing business' - Dovo's production, part assembly line, part robotic, part hand-made, etc, it lends itself to variations in geometry and grinds. Those nuances usually wind up meaning nothing at the end of the day though, especially to someone that just wants a shave and doesn't want to spend all day arguing about the stability of pearlite bands and the effects of myriad wear mechanisms on the subsurface.

 

[alex1921]

Here is mine, new production. Besides the frown it is also warped. Two negatives make a positive, right?

 

[Steve56]

Sad to hear that Alex.