Crox seems common here but anyone using iron oxide 0.1 micron paste?

[nicepatina]

So I have been researching a lot about abrasives. There is a ton of info on crox and diamond pastes where I can kind of get a good idea what they seem to offer, but not much talk about 0.1 micron Iron oxide paste. I ask this because I keep reading about how the transition from 0.25 micron diamond paste to 0.1 micron diamond paste is where the shave seems to become smooth again. I heard at 0.25, it's keener than 0.5 diamond paste but less comfortable. But going down to 0.1 micron diamond paste, it gets keener AND feels smoother.

What I gather about crox is, it's more subtle than diamond pastes but some people don't like using crox after honing a coticule for example because of the feel(a bit keener but not as comfy). They like the comfort feeling of straight coticule and just leather stropping more. But do any of you have experience with a progression from 0.5 micron crox to 0.1 micron iron oxide paste? And what are your results? I'm curious if you feel like the shave is keener AND smoother similar to the diamond pastes when you go down to 0.1 micron.

 

[Mr Bedlington]

.1 micron is twice as large as the particle size .5 micron and .25 is two times smaller particle than .5 micron.

 

[nicepatina]

.1 micron is twice as large as the particle size .5 micron and .25 is two times smaller particle than .5 micron.

View attachment 1629530

I am not sure I get you. Wouldn't 1 micron be twice the size of 0.5 micron, not 0.1 micron. I thought 0.1 micron would be smaller particle than 0.5 micron. I even asked chatgpt because you had me 2nd guessing myself. Chatgpt says 0.1 micron is smaller particle than 0.5 micron. Someone correct me if I am misunderstanding something.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

.1 (one tenth) is smaller than .5 (five tenths).

 

[JPO]

So I have been researching a lot about abrasives. There is a ton of info on crox and diamond pastes where I can kind of get a good idea what they seem to offer, but not much talk about 0.1 micron Iron oxide paste. I ask this because I keep reading about how the transition from 0.25 micron diamond paste to 0.1 micron diamond paste is where the shave seems to become smooth again. I heard at 0.25, it's keener than 0.5 diamond paste but less comfortable. But going down to 0.1 micron diamond paste, it gets keener AND feels smoother.

What I gather about crox is, it's more subtle than diamond pastes but some people don't like using crox after honing a coticule for example because of the feel(a bit keener but not as comfy). They like the comfort feeling of straight coticule and just leather stropping more. But do any of you have experience with a progression from 0.5 micron crox to 0.1 micron iron oxide paste? And what are your results? I'm curious if you feel like the shave is keener AND smoother similar to the diamond pastes when you go down to 0.1 micron.

Part of the problem with some of these sub micron sprays/pastes etc. is the quality and particle distribution. You only need a few oversized particles in the mix before you run into problems.
I also don't understand the need to do a progression of different pastes after a high grit finisher.
A 12k stone is roughly 1 micron. A shave at this level should be quite effortless and smooth. If you then do a progression and go to 0.5 m diamond, this will not be an improvement. The edge will be quite harsh. If you then move to 0.25 m diamond, the edge will still not be an improvement over the 12k edge. When you finish with 0.1 diamond/cbn or iron oxide the edge becomes smoother, and will be an improvement over the 12k edge (depending on your preference).
So why not just jump right to the finest compound, and skip the progression?
I have done it multiple times, and the resulting edge have been quite similar.
These strops are quite effective. Steel removal is not always proportional to the grit rating. Even a fine compound can remove material fast if it is of good quality.

 

[Mr Bedlington]

I am not sure I get you. Wouldn't 1 micron be twice the size of 0.5 micron, not 0.1 micron. I thought 0.1 micron would be smaller particle than 0.5 micron. I even asked chatgpt because you had me 2nd guessing myself. Chatgpt says 0.1 micron is smaller particle than 0.5 micron. Someone correct me if I am misunderstanding something.View attachment 1629547

Sorry for my mistake, I didn't see the zero in front of the 0.1 I just saw the .1, which threw me off.

 

[Adonay]

IMHO. I have a dovo red/black paste kit that I believe was made with Feox. I had the opportunity to test it on balsa and in my opinion I did not feel any benefit from these folders. Personally I prefer the Crox, for me is much more efetive to polish after 12k stone.

 

[nicepatina]

I just shaved off a fresh coticule honing and clean leather stropping last night and will test and shave off a maggard's crox/iron oxide paste stropping after tonight I will post the difference in shaving quality/experience later. One thing is for sure, is that after stropping off the crox then iron oxide, the edge performs a bit better on HHT. Will shave tonight and see how it goes.

 

[JPO]

I just shaved off a fresh coticule honing and clean leather stropping last night and will test and shave off a maggard's crox/iron oxide paste stropping after tonight I will post the difference in shaving quality/experience later. One thing is for sure, is that after stropping off the crox then iron oxide, the edge performs a bit better on HHT. Will shave tonight and see how it goes.

The type of substrate is quite important. crox/oron oxide will behave differently applied on leather (smooth finished) compared to fabric or balsa. Fabric or balsa seem to work best in my experiance.
Leather with some nap to it also seem to perform better then smooth fine leather.
So before you judge, it might be good to try different substrates, like linen, denim etc. in addition to leather.

The most important thing is to not use too much, and work it in to the substrate.

 

[nicepatina]

The type of substrate is quite important. crox/oron oxide will behave differently applied on leather (smooth finished) compared to fabric or balsa. Fabric or balsa seem to work best in my experiance.
Leather with some nap to it also seem to perform better then smooth fine leather.
So before you judge, it might be good to try different substrates, like linen, denim etc. in addition to leather.

The most important thing is to not use too much, and work it in to the substrate.

Yeah I am using them on a smooth leather paddle strop and getting slightly better keeness than just clean leather according to HHT. I may try fabric/balsa when time permits. The real test for me will be a few hours later though when I shave.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

As said a lot depends on the substrate. Particle size can perform very differently depending on many factors, substrate, technique, steel, steel preparation, pressure and grit shape.

Grit size alone is not the determining factor, look at Jnats and Arks. A burnished Translucent with a very large grit size can finish at a much higher level than a high grit synthetic, (8K +).

When you get into sub-micron grits, The steel and steel prep will also skew performance, can the razor and edge handle honing/stropping at sub-micron grits and is the edge developed enough to benefit from a large grit jump.

For razors sharp is easy, and useless if your skin will not tolerate it or your edge will not support it. If you are testing, try using grits from Kremer Pigments for pure pigment/grit size.

The other issue with pastes is, until you have mastered stropping your results will vary.

Most folks turn to paste, chasing the keenness wagon, but as their honing and stropping skills improve, find there are better solutions for keenness and comfort from natural stones.

So, can a razor benefit from a .50um (20-50K grit) Chromium Oxide edge polished on a .10um Iron Oxide (160-200k grit)? Maybe, it depends.

If it works for you, rock on.

 

[JPO]

Yeah I am using them on a smooth leather paddle strop and getting slightly better keeness than just clean leather according to HHT. I may try fabric/balsa when time permits. The real test for me will be a few hours later though when I shave.

If you like an in depth read about the topic just Google

science of sharp pasted strop

When you understand the basics you can get quite far with a simple setup.

Even simple metal polish, if applied on something like denim, and followed with pasted leather can be quite good.
Grit size can be misleading.

 

[nicepatina]

If you like an in depth read about the topic just Google

science of sharp pasted strop

When you understand the basics you can get quite far with a simple setup.

Even simple metal polish, if applied on something like denim, and followed with pasted leather can be quite good.
Grit size can be misleading.

So I just finished the shave on the crox/iron oxide edge. Conclusion is, it felt slightly keener? Going against the grain was a bit smoother but still not as effortless as say a DE. There was a slight improvement over just the coticule/leather combo but not enough to be confident saying there is a significant jump in edge quality for me. After, stropping on the pastes, the edges cant pass HHT until I strop it again, and then HHT result is similar to when I was just doing coticule/clean leather. If the paste, at least on a paddle strop, is doing any effect for me, its an ever so slight jump in keenest. The conclusion I am coming to is that, I really need to elevate my stropping game, because I can see that the stropping seems to be having the most effect on the edge for me in terms of keeness.

Maybe I will visit the paste again on balsa/denim some other time too. I'm still so fresh to this all, and still soaking in all the experiences/successes/fails.

 

[JPO]

So I just finished the shave on the crox/iron oxide edge. Conclusion is, it felt slightly keener? Going against the grain was a bit smoother but still not as effortless as say a DE. There was a slight improvement over just the coticule/leather combo but not enough to be confident saying there is a significant jump in edge quality for me. After, stropping on the pastes, the edges cant pass HHT until I strop it again, and then HHT result is similar to when I was just doing coticule/clean leather. If the paste, at least on a paddle strop, is doing any effect for me, its an ever so slight jump in keenest. The conclusion I am coming to is that, I really need to elevate my stropping game, because I can see that the stropping seems to be having the most effect on the edge for me in terms of keeness.

Maybe I will visit the paste again on balsa/denim some other time too. I'm still so fresh to this all, and still soaking in all the experiences/successes/fails.

When you use pasted "soft" substrates, you are also increasing your bevel angle behind the apex by a few degrees. So what you gain in making the apex width smaller by using pastes, you loose to some degree, because the edge gets thicker a distance behind the apex.
You might not gain that much in cutting efficiency.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, you don’t know, what you don’t know. If you continue honing and stropping, a year from now your edges will be infinitely better.

Think about this, if it takes 1,000 perfect repetitions to master a technique and you strop 365 time a year, how long will it take for you to make 1,000 perfect consecutive laps?

Perfect practice makes perfect. All the errant laps do not count.

Keep swinging.

 

[Slash McCoy]

To get best effect from abrasive pastes, first of all it is essential that you BEGIN with a very sharp edge. Sub micron abrasives do a poor job of making a dull razor sharp. They can, if properly used, make a sharp edge sharper.

If you are able and willing to follow instructions exactly in every single detail, and you start with a GOOD 12k Naniwa or a 1µ 3m type 261x or 262x lapping film edge, you can use a three stage progresssion to improve it very much in cutting ability and most likely comfort, too, though the comfort part also depends on shave technique, which is necessarily different for extremely sharp razors. If you are not willing to dogmatically follow The Method absolutely, then your random technique will serve only to give you random results.

As for the green and red paste, they can be made to work, using exactly the same technique as The Method, except it takes more laps on the CrOx and a LOT more laps on the FeOx. This flies in the face of conventional wisdom that suggests 6 to 8 laps. Even so, even following The Method and increasing lap count by a factor of 5, the edge from diamond paste is IME superior, and believe me, I tried to make it work. It just can't touch diamond paste, properly applied to properly prepared balsa and properly used.

If you don't read the thread from beginning to end, you will not do this right. If you don't do it exactly right, I absolutely cannot vouch for your results. Random technique gives random results, and honestly you may as well just skip pastes altogether.

 

[Brutus]

.1 (one tenth) is smaller than .5 (five tenths).

Absolutely.
Or as I overheard someone in Hyde Park once: “I could not fail to disagree less.”


Let’s try to be practical:
.5 beer: keep going
.1 beer: time to re-order
.05 beer: you should have re-ordered


I love applied mathematics…




B.

 

[RayClem]

There are several forms of iron oxide, but I presume the abrasive is Fe2O3, also known as hematite. It has a Mhos hardness around 6, which is around the same level as hardened steel in a razor. Thus, this is an "iron sharpens iron" type of sharpening. It is like sharpening your chef knife on on a knife steel rather than on a whetstone or ceramic rod. In contrast, chromium oxide is much harder, around 8 on the Mohs scale as is cerium oxide, frequently used to polish glass. Harder yet are aluminum oxide (corundum), silicon carbide, cubic boron nitride, and finally diamond, which is the hardest mineral known to man at this time.

Thus, using iron oxide is a very gentile way of improving the edge of your razor. Cerium oxide and chromium oxide will be slightly more aggressive. Aluminum oxide, Silicon carbide, cubic boron nitride and diamond need to be used with care.

I use cubic boron nitride in particle sizes of 0.5 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron to polish the edges of my straight razors.

There is certainly nothing wrong with using 0.1 micron iron oxide (sometimes called jeweler's rouge). The abrasive works quickly to polish softer metals like gold, silver, copper, and tin often used in jewelry. It will work far less quickly on hardened steel, especially if you have one made of super hard steel like Thiers Issard C135 "Carbonsong" steel or Japanese steel blades Because iron oxide is so gentile, you need to use other abrasives such as chromium oxide to be sure the razor's edge is sharp enough. Then the iron oxide can provide the final polish. If you try to take an edge directly from a 10-12K hone and finish it with iron oxide, you are likely to become frustrated at how slowly the abrasive works.

 

[Slash McCoy]

There are several forms of iron oxide, but I presume the abrasive is Fe2O3, also known as hematite. It has a Mhos hardness around 6, which is around the same level as hardened steel in a razor. Thus, this is an "iron sharpens iron" type of sharpening. It is like sharpening your chef knife on on a knife steel rather than on a whetstone or ceramic rod. In contrast, chromium oxide is much harder, around 8 on the Mohs scale as is cerium oxide, frequently used to polish glass. Harder yet are aluminum oxide (corundum), silicon carbide, cubic boron nitride, and finally diamond, which is the hardest mineral known to man at this time.

Thus, using iron oxide is a very gentile way of improving the edge of your razor. Cerium oxide and chromium oxide will be slightly more aggressive. Aluminum oxide, Silicon carbide, cubic boron nitride and diamond need to be used with care.

I use cubic boron nitride in particle sizes of 0.5 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron to polish the edges of my straight razors.

There is certainly nothing wrong with using 0.1 micron iron oxide (sometimes called jeweler's rouge). The abrasive works quickly to polish softer metals like gold, silver, copper, and tin often used in jewelry. It will work far less quickly on hardened steel, especially if you have one made of super hard steel like Thiers Issard C135 "Carbonsong" steel or Japanese steel blades Because iron oxide is so gentile, you need to use other abrasives such as chromium oxide to be sure the razor's edge is sharp enough. Then the iron oxide can provide the final polish. If you try to take an edge directly from a 10-12K hone and finish it with iron oxide, you are likely to become frustrated at how slowly the abrasive works.

I hadn't thought of that. That's probably why it takes like 500 to 1000 laps on the red to equal 50 laps on .1µ diamond. I thought it was just that the jump from .5µ Chrome Oxide to .1µ Iron Oxide was a 10x jump. Thanks for pointing that out, Ray.

 

[marz1]

There are several forms of iron oxide, but I presume the abrasive is Fe2O3, also known as hematite. It has a Mhos hardness around 6, which is around the same level as hardened steel in a razor. Thus, this is an "iron sharpens iron" type of sharpening. It is like sharpening your chef knife on on a knife steel rather than on a whetstone or ceramic rod. In contrast, chromium oxide is much harder, around 8 on the Mohs scale as is cerium oxide, frequently used to polish glass. Harder yet are aluminum oxide (corundum), silicon carbide, cubic boron nitride, and finally diamond, which is the hardest mineral known to man at this time.

Thus, using iron oxide is a very gentile way of improving the edge of your razor. Cerium oxide and chromium oxide will be slightly more aggressive. Aluminum oxide, Silicon carbide, cubic boron nitride and diamond need to be used with care.

I use cubic boron nitride in particle sizes of 0.5 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron to polish the edges of my straight razors.

There is certainly nothing wrong with using 0.1 micron iron oxide (sometimes called jeweler's rouge). The abrasive works quickly to polish softer metals like gold, silver, copper, and tin often used in jewelry. It will work far less quickly on hardened steel, especially if you have one made of super hard steel like Thiers Issard C135 "Carbonsong" steel or Japanese steel blades Because iron oxide is so gentile, you need to use other abrasives such as chromium oxide to be sure the razor's edge is sharp enough. Then the iron oxide can provide the final polish. If you try to take an edge directly from a 10-12K hone and finish it with iron oxide, you are likely to become frustrated at how slowly the abrasive works.

Thanks, that's a really detailed explanation.
Given that iron oxide appears to be finer and softer than CrOx, is it possible to use it for daily stropping? Daily stropping with CrOx weakens the edge (I think?) so is the risk the same with iron oxide assuming 50 laps or so in between shaves?
Since iron oxide is softer and finer, is it wise to put the paste on the other side of one's regular strop, since contamination would not -in theory- be as detrimental than if CrOx was the contaminant?