Gold dollar honing experiment feedback

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I assume this means half strokes are not recommended after the bevel has been set? Is there a reason? It would seem to be the fastest way to erase the course scratches.”

No, not at all, half laps are just fine, especially single direction edge leading only.

With any stone, or paste, there is point where the bevels are meeting fully and polished. Doing more laps will not improve the edge further, make sharper or more comfortable. But will thin and extend the edge, that can easily fail and micro-chip.

It is easy to do too many laps with some 8,10 and 12k synthetic stones.

But it is not the end of the world or difficult to fix. Just cut off the thin edge by jointing the edge, a single lite stroke or two, and reset the bevels to fully meeting in 10-20 laps.

Look at the (Ax Method of honing razors).

 

[JPO]

I assume this means half strokes are not recommended after the bevel has been set? Is there a reason? It would seem to be the fastest way to erase the course scratches.

It is quite affective. However, it can also lead to a overstressed edge, if it is two directional, like I did.
As I showed here it really did not matter. So, just try it.

 

[JPO]

But it is not the end of the world or difficult to fix. Just cut off the thin edge by jointing the edge, a single lite stroke or two, and reset the bevels to fully meeting in 10-20 laps.

The point of this particular method we are discussing is to follow a different way of honing as described in the referenced blog.
This is just one way.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Right, but using paste to finish an edge is not new, paste has been used for hundreds of years, though maybe not as aggressive as modern Diamond and CBN paste.

The OP is concerned about “Over honing” with stones, but the same effects can occur with aggressive paste, it is easily reversible.

I have finished bevels with metal polish to a mirror, no stria bevel, (makes an aggressive uncomfortable shaving edge), about 50-100 laps off a 6k stone.

Then simply joint the edge and set a new edge in 20-30 laps on .50um CBN or Diamond. No Drama.

Bottom line for me, there are much better, more comfortable shaving edges than Diamond or CBN paste.

 

[JPO]

Right, but using paste to finish an edge is not new, paste has been used for hundreds of years, though maybe not as aggressive as modern Diamond and CBN paste.

It is not just about using paste.
It is all detailed in the blog.
The reason why the cbn/diamonds paste is not creating a harsh edge is due to the preceding denim/fabric step, which creates enough micro convexity to avoid the formation of a new wire edge on the diamond loaded leather.
The edge trailing part is also important.

When this is done in this particular way you will not get a harsh edge.

Just try it

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yea, have tried it.

This technique is about 10 years old. Several years ago, before this video, I did a 2-3 year deep dive with paste and substrates. Made about a hundred strops. I got some great edges.

Still think that Jnat and Ark edges shave better for me. Diamonds and CBN work well with some steels. It is not just the substrate, the steel plays a large part especially for edge longevity.

Agree, many roads to Rome.

 

[eKretz]

Most anything I would have added has been covered fairly extensive by the others. I'll just add that yes, stainless steel holds onto burrs and wire edges much more tenaciously than good hard plain carbon steel due to the fact that most stainless steels are more ductile. The loupe method and rolling the razor under overhead light works very well for burr and wire edge discovery. Also, if you see a sort of sparkly or glittery looking apex under the loupe, that is an indication of a burr or wire edge that's beginning to break away.

 

[sd_baker]

With any stone, or paste, there is point where the bevels are meeting fully and polished. Doing more laps will not improve the edge further, make sharper or more comfortable. But will thin and extend the edge, that can easily fail and micro-chip.

Is this extended weak edge a foil edge?

It is easy to do too many laps with some 8,10 and 12k synthetic stones.

But it is not the end of the world or difficult to fix. Just cut off the thin edge by jointing the edge, a single lite stroke or two, and reset the bevels to fully meeting in 10-20 laps.

This concept of over-honing is a new idea to me. My mental of sharpening from knife world is a burr or foil edge is created if you keep doing laps after apex creation.

I'm reading Honing - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/wiki/Honing#Over_Honing and it's still not clear when the over-honing problem will happen.

Look at the (Ax Method of honing razors).

Ax method is very cool. It appears to be similar to the SOS method actually, but the micro-convexity is created using slurry on jnat instead of pasted denim.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Is this extended weak edge a foil edge?”

Yes, but can easily be made into a burr, the longer the weaker. Remember we cannot see the actual cutting edge without SEM magnification, even high dollar scopes will not show the edge.

H Brad Boonshaft said:

It is easy to do too many laps with some 8,10 and 12k synthetic stones.

But it is not the end of the world or difficult to fix. Just cut off the thin edge by jointing the edge, a single lite stroke or two, and reset the bevels to fully meeting in 10-20 laps.

“This concept of over-honing is a new idea to me. My mental of sharpening from knife world is a burr or foil edge is created if you keep doing laps after apex creation.”


And that is the issue that many Knife honers have with honing razors. Razors are honed with a different goal, and honed differently. The goal is to not make a burr. Yes, you can intentionally create a burr remove it and make a shaveable edge, but that is not what most new folks do, they just keep honing and make a foil edge or burr.

I intentionally make a burr when honing tools and knives, but those tools are not concerned with comfort, just sharpness.
Sharp is easy, sharp and comfortable is a whole other can of fish.

“I'm reading Honing - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/wiki/Honing#Over_Honing and it's still not clear when the over-honing problem will happen.”

Over-honing is a broad term and was for a while, years ago overused to described honing to the point of making a burr, when the burr broke off the edge was dull again, that is what this post is referring.

“H Brad Boonshaft said:

Look at the (Ax Method of honing razors).

Ax method is very cool. It appears to be similar to the SOS method actually, but the micro-convexity is created using slurry on jnat instead of pasted denim.”

Don’t get caught up with micro-convexity, it occurs anytime you strop and often when you hone, especially on slurry, depending on your technique. If you paste a strop, you make the strop more aggressive and will convex an edge quicker and possibly steeper. Diamonds are super aggressive and cut deep.

Paste honing is not new and is/was popular in Europe. It works, but a large part of honing your own razors is the ability to tailor an edge to a particular razor to your face and beard type. Most folks are happy to just scrape hair off their face with a minimum of blood, cartridge razors.

Convexing an edge is a good thing that makes an edge stronger, but only by microns.

Alex’s Ax Method is very simple and can be used with synthetic stones very well. It is similar to Japanese knife honing techniques. The number of decreasing edge leading laps minimize a burr. Most folks that try it do both edge leading and trailing strokes that are self-defeating.

The other thing not discussed much is razor hardness, a huge variable. You can tailor a razor to specific stones for maximum edge creation. Some steels prefer certain stones, the most glaring is stainless steel vs carbon steel. Most folks hone all razors the same way and get varied results. Also, a lot depends on your skin and beard type, lots of folks shave off Diamonds and love it, does not bother their skin.

The trick to learning to hone razors is to minimize as many variables as possible and verifying you have a fully set bevel.



Here are a couple of edge micrographs, by Tim Zowada, one of his Timahagane razors, (64HRC). edge off a Shinden Asagi and stropped 40 laps with clean flax linen.

This is the initial edge. The honing bevel is about 25µ wide.

This the same edge after 40 laps on a fairly smooth Flax Linen strop. The spots are silica inclusions in the steel. They made very handy reference points for lining things up. They were also a great reference to measure edge wear, after many tests.

A chin whisker, for scale reference. It is a little wider th ean the frame of the photo.

Most surprising was how much steel coarse cotton canvas removed from the edge. Several microns of edge width were removed after only 40 laps.

 

[JPO]

This is one example of how a burr on a difficult Damasteel Böker razor can look like.
By jointing the edge on a stone you are essentially dragging this steel debree into a groove. That is the reason why the toe gets allot more damage from doing this then the heel, if you go from heel to toe.

As you can see, even a slurried jnat can cause this effect on some steel.

 

[sd_baker]

A full progression with a maxed out 8k, followed by only 5 to 10 strokes on denim and leather loaded with diamonds will probably give you a better edge. However, then all the work leading up to this needs to be good.

I just looked more carefully at my SoS edges by turning them slowly under a bright light. I can see a bright shiny thin line right at the apex. The thin line is consistent across the entire apex of the edge. It's narrower than a knife's microbevel, but I believe a correctly applied micro-convexity is so small that it should not be visible in this way.

This means I'm overdoing the metal polish stropping. I will reset the bevel on a razor and start over to confirm.