So I currently use all cast iron and a cheap stainless steel pot for tomato based foods, but am really starting to look into getting some copper cookware. Either Falk or Mauviel in their 2.5mm thick line. Anyone have any experience with these? And which pieces do you think are especially "necessary" and which ones do cheaper alternatives work just as well?
Copper Cookware
- Thread starter Oscar's Drum
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Unless you look forward to a lifetime of maintenance, I would stick with cast iron and stainless steel. The trinity of Le Creuset, AllClad and Lodge will take you from here to the grave with exceptional performance and style.
+1
Copper cookware must be maintained, re-tinned and above all polished, as dark spots will cause the pan to heat unevenly. I used to have a couple of copper sauciers and would polish them after each and every use. I finally got rid of them on Craigslist.
Growing up, my mother had cooper cookware and I'll echo what others have already said. It was a chore to maintain them, all of the cookware got polished weekly, or more often as needed.
If you are set on copper why not look at the All Clad cooper core line?
If you are set on copper why not look at the All Clad cooper core line?
I have a bunch of carbon steel pans, so I'm used to maintaining cookware. Having said that, I would not buy any more tin lined copper pans.
Purists will say that you should only buy tin lined copper. I say they're nuts. Bourgeat makes some terrific stainless steel lined copper pans that are as good as they get.
Purists will say that you should only buy tin lined copper. I say they're nuts. Bourgeat makes some terrific stainless steel lined copper pans that are as good as they get.
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Thanks for all the input!
As far as being tin-lined, I don't think any of the major brands are still lining with tin for their main pieces, or at all. Not sure if they still offer some with tin, but they are generally going to be stainless lined. And regarding the All-clad, I'm not sure the small amount of copper in them makes it worth it.
I know they need to be polished, but that's not a huge deal to me - I hone my razor, sharpen my knives, shine my shoes, season my cast iron, putting a bit of work into superior products that will last is fine with me. I'd consider all-clad for pieces where a copper equivalent wouldn't make a difference. But for something like a saucier, for example, I would think copper gives significant advantages. Anyone have experience with any of these brands that can attest to that or reject that idea?
As far as being tin-lined, I don't think any of the major brands are still lining with tin for their main pieces, or at all. Not sure if they still offer some with tin, but they are generally going to be stainless lined. And regarding the All-clad, I'm not sure the small amount of copper in them makes it worth it.
I know they need to be polished, but that's not a huge deal to me - I hone my razor, sharpen my knives, shine my shoes, season my cast iron, putting a bit of work into superior products that will last is fine with me. I'd consider all-clad for pieces where a copper equivalent wouldn't make a difference. But for something like a saucier, for example, I would think copper gives significant advantages. Anyone have experience with any of these brands that can attest to that or reject that idea?
You can get stainless lined copper. If you don't care about having the outsides pretty & shiny, there's no maintenance to these at all. There's no significant cooking benefit to shining them, though you don't want to let them get green. Let's say a home chef can polish them lightly once a year and be happy. I like Falk Culinair. Falk doesnt have a shiny outside, but you can get the same effect with the other brands using sandpaper or steel wool--I forget how it's done. I believe Falk invented the process of bonding stainless steel to copper, and was selling the metal to the others. There's also Borgeat and Mauviel, which are (were?) both more expensive, but have some sizes and shapes you can't get from Falk.
The basic reason to use solid copper is for its heat capacity and quick response in a solid body. For heat capacity and heat retention, such as searing a steak, prefer solid aluminum, which is somewhere between copper and iron in terms of retention and response. 2.5mm copper is about the same as 7mm alumium, which is actually hard to find these days. If you don't need the entire body to be solid, you're wasting money in copper. The one exception is pretty rare: a 2.5mm copper bottom where the copper eases off into going into the sides but becomes steel on the sides. This would make a good saute pan. I believe mauviel makes one, though it may be 2mm. I hate disc bottom fry or saute pans because the solid part doesn't cover the entire bottom, and those corners can cause burning. This is important for saute, fry, and sauce pans.
Saute & frying pans: I like solid aluminum for the heat capacity, but also like to have copper for its much quicker reaction time.
Saucier: The large ones are good to reduce a sauce, such as a tomato sauce. The sides get hot and help to cook & reduce quicker.
Sauce pans: A normal sauce pan tends to squared off the side/bottom. I prefer skipping true saucepans and using a small saucier, with rounded bottom/corners.
Roasting pan: You want something heavy that can hold heat and prevent burning. A solid, thick aluminum one is better, but if you want a stainless liner, the available aluminum ones are too thin--they tend to burn somewhere between "I'm a home chef" and "I'm a pro with nothing else to do, and I use this thing every day". I don't have one of these because they're seriously expensive, and I don't need one often enough, so I make do with an approximately 18ga aluminum one lined inside & out with stainless steel. I don't see how there can be much alumunum in it, but it was only $80. I do burn at least some of the drippings every other time using it, careful as I try, but am getting better and only get serious burning every 5th try or so. The copper ones come in 1.2mm & 2mm thick copper. Definitely a luxury.
Paella: I don't have one, but I hear copper is very useful for paella. The same principle applies for making risotto, but that wants something more like a saucier, or more probably, a large, square sided sauce pan. I use my large saucier which works great, but is a bit large for my needs here.
Sugar pan: You need a quick reaction time to melt sugar, so copper excels at this. Of course, you can use a small copper saucier.
Egg beater: These are unlined copper, and only need to be thick enough to stand up to the beaters. The copper ions help build a larger foam. There's no substitute for this, though you can skip it altogether.
Personally, I have a small (1.5 qt?) saucier, a 12" frying pan, and a large (14"?) saucier. My next piece will be a saute pan--I keep putting this off because I have a disc bottom one that works if I'm really careful, and also because I think really heavy aluminum would work better with its eat holding capacity--probably the right answer is that I want both. I might also get a 3 qt saucier. It's hard to justify spending the money on any other pieces. Depending on what you cook, you might want one of the others I listed.
One thing you might want to watch out for is the cast iron handles can get pitted & rusty. You might want to think about coating them or treating them exactly like cast iron cookware. Finally, save yourself some money by getting stainless lids elsewhere.
The basic reason to use solid copper is for its heat capacity and quick response in a solid body. For heat capacity and heat retention, such as searing a steak, prefer solid aluminum, which is somewhere between copper and iron in terms of retention and response. 2.5mm copper is about the same as 7mm alumium, which is actually hard to find these days. If you don't need the entire body to be solid, you're wasting money in copper. The one exception is pretty rare: a 2.5mm copper bottom where the copper eases off into going into the sides but becomes steel on the sides. This would make a good saute pan. I believe mauviel makes one, though it may be 2mm. I hate disc bottom fry or saute pans because the solid part doesn't cover the entire bottom, and those corners can cause burning. This is important for saute, fry, and sauce pans.
Saute & frying pans: I like solid aluminum for the heat capacity, but also like to have copper for its much quicker reaction time.
Saucier: The large ones are good to reduce a sauce, such as a tomato sauce. The sides get hot and help to cook & reduce quicker.
Sauce pans: A normal sauce pan tends to squared off the side/bottom. I prefer skipping true saucepans and using a small saucier, with rounded bottom/corners.
Roasting pan: You want something heavy that can hold heat and prevent burning. A solid, thick aluminum one is better, but if you want a stainless liner, the available aluminum ones are too thin--they tend to burn somewhere between "I'm a home chef" and "I'm a pro with nothing else to do, and I use this thing every day". I don't have one of these because they're seriously expensive, and I don't need one often enough, so I make do with an approximately 18ga aluminum one lined inside & out with stainless steel. I don't see how there can be much alumunum in it, but it was only $80. I do burn at least some of the drippings every other time using it, careful as I try, but am getting better and only get serious burning every 5th try or so. The copper ones come in 1.2mm & 2mm thick copper. Definitely a luxury.
Paella: I don't have one, but I hear copper is very useful for paella. The same principle applies for making risotto, but that wants something more like a saucier, or more probably, a large, square sided sauce pan. I use my large saucier which works great, but is a bit large for my needs here.
Sugar pan: You need a quick reaction time to melt sugar, so copper excels at this. Of course, you can use a small copper saucier.
Egg beater: These are unlined copper, and only need to be thick enough to stand up to the beaters. The copper ions help build a larger foam. There's no substitute for this, though you can skip it altogether.
Personally, I have a small (1.5 qt?) saucier, a 12" frying pan, and a large (14"?) saucier. My next piece will be a saute pan--I keep putting this off because I have a disc bottom one that works if I'm really careful, and also because I think really heavy aluminum would work better with its eat holding capacity--probably the right answer is that I want both. I might also get a 3 qt saucier. It's hard to justify spending the money on any other pieces. Depending on what you cook, you might want one of the others I listed.
One thing you might want to watch out for is the cast iron handles can get pitted & rusty. You might want to think about coating them or treating them exactly like cast iron cookware. Finally, save yourself some money by getting stainless lids elsewhere.
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My grandmother had a set of copper pots and pans, and she, just like most people, hung them on the kitchen wall as ornamentation.
While most cooks lust after a set of copper cookware, I don't know anybody that actually uses them for daily cooking.
While most cooks lust after a set of copper cookware, I don't know anybody that actually uses them for daily cooking.
I loved my copper pan... But finally switched to heavy gauge aluminum because of the maintenance on the copper. The aluminum has much better responsiveness than my steel, but sadly, not as good as my copper was.
Go copper if you can take the time and care to take care of it, but if you don't have the time and desire to maintain it, go with something else.
Go copper if you can take the time and care to take care of it, but if you don't have the time and desire to maintain it, go with something else.
Steve, do you still have that webpage explaining the science behind using different metals for cooking? I thought it was very informational, but cannot remember in which thread you posted it in.
I think the general consensus is to use copper for any cookware that requires quick changes in heat. Some examples would be saucepans or sauciers. When making sauces like hollandaise, it is important that the temperature of your cookware changes right away when you turn the heat down or remove the saucepan or saucier from the stove. Cookware that does not necessarily need a quick response to heat, such as fry or sauté pans, do not need copper, as it is unlikely that you will ever need the pan to immediately adjust to a change in temperature.
I think the general consensus is to use copper for any cookware that requires quick changes in heat. Some examples would be saucepans or sauciers. When making sauces like hollandaise, it is important that the temperature of your cookware changes right away when you turn the heat down or remove the saucepan or saucier from the stove. Cookware that does not necessarily need a quick response to heat, such as fry or sauté pans, do not need copper, as it is unlikely that you will ever need the pan to immediately adjust to a change in temperature.
Steve,
What pans are you using?
What pans are you using?
It's a course on on egullet called Understanding Stovetop Cookware with a follow-up Q&A. The site has a general cookware section with a lot more specific discussion & questions.
2.5mm stainless lined interior. 1.5 qt? saucier--the Falk starter piece, 12" Bourgeat? frying pan, 14"? Mauviel? saucier. My next would be a saute, and maybe other sauce pans for actually making delicate sauces, such as roux, where a bottom disc with thin sides can burn too easily where the disc ends near the sides, or for heating leftovers and canned food--my most frequent use for that small saucier. Brands don't matter much since the metal's (probably still) made by one company that owns the patent. I think you can skip the frying pan if you have heavy, solid aluminum or iron, but it's nice to have one in copper--I have several sizes in solid aluminum, 3 with stainless interiors. Most of my other pans are thin side, some with disc bottoms, such as the stock pot where I can brown something lightly before making a stock. Then there's specifics, like an omelette pan, etc. No sense paying $300 to boil water for vegetables.
Agree completely, but I think it's important to understand that quick response works 2 ways. Put a steak or a pound of chopped onions onto copper and the heat moves out of the pan into the food quickly, too, so the pan will cool fast, and you need to adjust for that. The same thing happens with heavy aluminum or iron, but much slower--often slow enough that you barely need to adjust the heat before & after you put something in it.
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I have a bunch of copper cookware that I bought about twelve years ago and I rarely cook with anything else anymore. I absolutely love it (mostly Mauviel 2.5mm, lined with SS). I still like a cast iron skillet for some things but for most of my cooking on top of the stove, it's copper.
I am not a pro, just an entusiastic amateur. Any cookware you buy will have advantages and disadvantages. I have cooked with SS, Calphalon aluminum, enamel, iron, and just about everything else. I'll never go back. Why? Because copper gives me greater control in most situations than anything else. This is crucial when--for example--making sauces or omelets. Also, it can be very forgiving. I find it takes a real effort to burn anything in a copper saucepan if my attention wanders. I guess it's because the heat spreads so evenly.
One disadvantage: Copper almost always has metal handles and I have burned myself more than once. Once when busily preparing a meal for company, I was cooking something that went from stovetop to broiler, then back to the stovetop. I pulled it from the oven and put it on the stove, then turned to something else for a moment. Then, forgetting that I had just pulled this pan out of the oven, I grabbed the handle and got a pretty nasty burn. Of course, the fact that it can go between stove and oven so easily is a plus.
As far as polishing, I do it occasionally if I'm feeling motivated but I usually just let it oxidize. It still looks fine and the cooking properties dont seem to be affected. Also, the stainless steel is very easy to clean.
When I bought my cookware, I was fortunate to be living in Europe. My wife and I decided to save up specifically for a set of copper. On a trip to Paris, we made a pilgrimage to E. Dehillerin (selling high-end kitchen ware in the same location since 1820!) and went crazy. Luckily, the exchange rate at the time was very favorable. It was still expensive but we paid about a third of the going rate in the States at that time. I have never regretted spending the money.
Wow, that's a lot of verbiage for a first post!
I am not a pro, just an entusiastic amateur. Any cookware you buy will have advantages and disadvantages. I have cooked with SS, Calphalon aluminum, enamel, iron, and just about everything else. I'll never go back. Why? Because copper gives me greater control in most situations than anything else. This is crucial when--for example--making sauces or omelets. Also, it can be very forgiving. I find it takes a real effort to burn anything in a copper saucepan if my attention wanders. I guess it's because the heat spreads so evenly.
One disadvantage: Copper almost always has metal handles and I have burned myself more than once. Once when busily preparing a meal for company, I was cooking something that went from stovetop to broiler, then back to the stovetop. I pulled it from the oven and put it on the stove, then turned to something else for a moment. Then, forgetting that I had just pulled this pan out of the oven, I grabbed the handle and got a pretty nasty burn. Of course, the fact that it can go between stove and oven so easily is a plus.
As far as polishing, I do it occasionally if I'm feeling motivated but I usually just let it oxidize. It still looks fine and the cooking properties dont seem to be affected. Also, the stainless steel is very easy to clean.
When I bought my cookware, I was fortunate to be living in Europe. My wife and I decided to save up specifically for a set of copper. On a trip to Paris, we made a pilgrimage to E. Dehillerin (selling high-end kitchen ware in the same location since 1820!) and went crazy. Luckily, the exchange rate at the time was very favorable. It was still expensive but we paid about a third of the going rate in the States at that time. I have never regretted spending the money.
Wow, that's a lot of verbiage for a first post!
