Thanks for the response. I am new to soap making and keep hearing about shea butter and cocoa butter, sometimes in combination, for shaving soap. I hadn't considered using tallow before I read your post and web page. That and the Web research I have done tells me that tallow is definitely worth a look.
Best Shaving Soap? - Make your Own
- Thread starter LBussy
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #62
When a fat is saponified it is just that - and is no longer the original substance. Shea butter has a very high level of unsaponfiables so it does leave a bit of it's character - plus it's in the superfat of this soap.
Replacing Tallow with Cocoa Butter would just be replacing the fats and I would not expect any of the purported benefits of cocoa butter to express themselves in the finished product. Just a guess of course, and soap is highly subjective.
Replacing Tallow with Cocoa Butter would just be replacing the fats and I would not expect any of the purported benefits of cocoa butter to express themselves in the finished product. Just a guess of course, and soap is highly subjective.
"Superfatting" at the end of the soapmaking process is a very old and a very incorrect idea. Firstly, saponification takes place over a period of hours and the lye may take a while before it saponifies all of the molecules of fatty acids no matter what order they are put in! Secondly, each oil is chosen for the make-up of fatty acids it contains and the characteristics each fatty acid brings to the soap. It is better to combine all of the ingredients in the beginning to make sure the mixture is mixed properly and adding an oil or butter at the end of the process means that the oils and butters are not evenly distributed giving the soap an uneven texture as the soap mixture has already begun to change consistency.
A careful selection of oils and butters can make the perfect soap for any purpose whether it is for bathing or shaving but process and consistent technique is crucial to creating a well balanced bar. "Superfatting" is fine is it is done correctly and that is by simply calculating a certain percentage of the oil phase that is not saponified by the base, whether it be KOH, NaOH, TEA, or any other base and combining it all in the beginning of the process.
- Thread starter
- #64
Incorrect, but I can see why you would think so. I'm not sure if you ready my articles or just latched on to that one point. When my soap is done it is zap free - and actually most HP soaps I have made are so after < 30 minutes. When you add oils at that point, those are the oils in your superfat.
"Better" is a pretty general term - maybe you should experiment a little more. It is true that you can get an uneven consistency pretty easily in HP, especially when staging additions, but I challenge you to tell me how it matters when you are loading a brush rather than using a bar of soap. The proof is in the pudding, or the shave in this case. Unless you've made the recipe as directed your arguments are without basis. I'm not saying this recipe is better than any others, just that your concerns with it and the process are unfounded.
No argument there. Two people can make the same soap and have it come out differently - but that's why I gave careful instructions,; so that the first time soap maker can have a batch he (or she) can be proud of. People are of course going to branch out from there and find their own way - but to learn one must first emulate.
That statement is true with cold process to be true, but in HP smarter people than I have determined that superfat additions are in fact, just that.
Lee,
I am a professional soapmaker who's research and development goes back to 1998. I have had my own business since 2003 and have my own retail store and Internet business. I know what I'm talking about and I learned what I know from extensive research experimentation and have well-known cosmetic chemists as teachers and mentors.
Whether it is cold process or hot process there is no way to homogenize batches enough to evenly distribute "superfatting" without getting small pockets of fatty acids throughout your batch. You say "zap free" which would indicate you are using your tongue to test the batch rather than a pH meter?
I should experiment a little bit more? Maybe you should learn to be a little more polite and respectful! I have over 200 formulas which I have made and tested. Suggesting that even if the superfat and other ingredients haven't mixed that it doesn't matter because you are mixing it with a loaded brush and that would be OK? Using that logic, wouldn't it be just as easy to dip your brush in water, then sodium or potassium hydroxide then oils and just mix them together in the bowl or on your face? Ludicrous! You are talking about hot process soap not triple pressed soap here. Whether is is used to shave or bath with, soap should have an even pH level throughout the bar which it can't have if superfat is added at the end! As far as your other comments, you should know that one who has vast experience in soapmaking can look at a formula (recipes are for cooking!) and be able to tell from just looking at it (and using a calculator) whether it will work or not. I don't have to make something to know it is right or wrong!
As far are your comment about two people making the same soap and having it come out differently, if the same ingredients and techniques are used and every thing is measured correctly and the proper temperatures are used then there is no reason why they shouldn't come out exactly the same. Emulate? I would use "experiment" in that context...
Your last statement makes no sense whatsoever! What I think you were trying to say is that "superfatting" in the last phase of a Hot Process stays as superfat and what I am saying is that there is no way to properly homogenize the superfat into the batch at that stage and have it it there as a moisturizing on a more molecular level. Homogenization of the oil phase in the beginning will give you what you need if you have chosen your oils and butters correctly. Remember, that saponification takes hours, days and weeks to complete. Yes, hot process is faster but if you do a pH test on a bar of hot process or cold process soap over a period of time, the pH will continue to go down even if only slightly.
I don't come here to get involved in disputes but when I see something that I know to be false that is being touted as correct to guys here I can't just sit here and say nothing. To the moderators here, I have found this gentlemen's comments and remarks in this and other posts in the past are condescending and insulting. I don't appreciate being talked down to and treated in that way. I leave this to you to decide what to do about it.
I am a professional soapmaker who's research and development goes back to 1998. I have had my own business since 2003 and have my own retail store and Internet business. I know what I'm talking about and I learned what I know from extensive research experimentation and have well-known cosmetic chemists as teachers and mentors.
Whether it is cold process or hot process there is no way to homogenize batches enough to evenly distribute "superfatting" without getting small pockets of fatty acids throughout your batch. You say "zap free" which would indicate you are using your tongue to test the batch rather than a pH meter?
I should experiment a little bit more? Maybe you should learn to be a little more polite and respectful! I have over 200 formulas which I have made and tested. Suggesting that even if the superfat and other ingredients haven't mixed that it doesn't matter because you are mixing it with a loaded brush and that would be OK? Using that logic, wouldn't it be just as easy to dip your brush in water, then sodium or potassium hydroxide then oils and just mix them together in the bowl or on your face? Ludicrous! You are talking about hot process soap not triple pressed soap here. Whether is is used to shave or bath with, soap should have an even pH level throughout the bar which it can't have if superfat is added at the end! As far as your other comments, you should know that one who has vast experience in soapmaking can look at a formula (recipes are for cooking!) and be able to tell from just looking at it (and using a calculator) whether it will work or not. I don't have to make something to know it is right or wrong!
As far are your comment about two people making the same soap and having it come out differently, if the same ingredients and techniques are used and every thing is measured correctly and the proper temperatures are used then there is no reason why they shouldn't come out exactly the same. Emulate? I would use "experiment" in that context...
Your last statement makes no sense whatsoever! What I think you were trying to say is that "superfatting" in the last phase of a Hot Process stays as superfat and what I am saying is that there is no way to properly homogenize the superfat into the batch at that stage and have it it there as a moisturizing on a more molecular level. Homogenization of the oil phase in the beginning will give you what you need if you have chosen your oils and butters correctly. Remember, that saponification takes hours, days and weeks to complete. Yes, hot process is faster but if you do a pH test on a bar of hot process or cold process soap over a period of time, the pH will continue to go down even if only slightly.
I don't come here to get involved in disputes but when I see something that I know to be false that is being touted as correct to guys here I can't just sit here and say nothing. To the moderators here, I have found this gentlemen's comments and remarks in this and other posts in the past are condescending and insulting. I don't appreciate being talked down to and treated in that way. I leave this to you to decide what to do about it.
Thank you for this thread! Subscribed and bumping to the top of the forum.
[MENTION=61594]LBussy[/MENTION] So that's your site...
Funny story...a few weeks ago I was searching the internet for how to make soap...not shave soap...just regular bath soap. So I was searching and then I started putting in terms for shave soaps and I came across this website that was something like a silver fox...or something...
That being said...I didn't make a connection to the sample I had from the Pass-Around Box until I read the site and then remembered I had the sample. I didn't make the connection between you and the soap until a couple of minutes ago when I read this thread. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Guess what I will be shaving with tomorrow morning?
I want to start out making some bath soap. Your site actually helps out. Once I get some good soap down I will try making some shave soap. Thanks for all of your sharing!
Funny story...a few weeks ago I was searching the internet for how to make soap...not shave soap...just regular bath soap. So I was searching and then I started putting in terms for shave soaps and I came across this website that was something like a silver fox...or something...
That being said...I didn't make a connection to the sample I had from the Pass-Around Box until I read the site and then remembered I had the sample. I didn't make the connection between you and the soap until a couple of minutes ago when I read this thread. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Guess what I will be shaving with tomorrow morning?
I want to start out making some bath soap. Your site actually helps out. Once I get some good soap down I will try making some shave soap. Thanks for all of your sharing!
- Thread starter
- #68
I'm amazed you fond the site with a Google search Don. I have done nothing to optimize it and the way things are these days, Google heavily favors those who spend a lot of time making their sites stand out. I'll be interested to hear what you think about the soap. As I've said I lay no particular claim to inventing a good shaving soap - there are folks before me who did a lot of work on their soaps and freely shared their experiences. All of that accelerated my ability to make a soap I like. Sharing that recipe and getting other folks making soap is my way of giving back to the community. When I give away samples it's just my way of justifying making my own soap - otherwise I'd never get to make more batches. It lasts a long time otherwise!
And thanks for the morning chuckle too ... I'd missed David's rant up there when he posted it. It's a good example of the differences between soap makers. David and I might make exactly the same soap, the same way, have the same results, and explain it differently. I'd cite one set of scientists and he'd cite another and we'd end up not agreeing with each other and all that ... bah. Too much strife. The zap vs pH test is a good example. One soap can be stable and fully cured at one pH level while another is still not ready. When a well known, respected, credentialled chemist (professor/PhD) tells me that the zap test is as reliable as or even more reliable than a pH test, I listen. I'm not commercial, I have no horse in that race. I will say that IF I was comercial and IF I was making the same soap in large batches repeatedly, I would use pH as a relative indicator between batches because if one batch is fully cured at pH X.x the next batch will do the same and THAT is good science and reasonable. Doing pH on your first batch of soap is no more telling than looking at the color of your morning poop and trying to figure out if you are healthy or not. It has no bearing out of context. You can get a pH of 9.8 and have it zap you (indication of unreacted lye) while another batch at 10.0 is *fully cured and mild to your skin (values completely made up). There's a difference between pH and titratable alkalinity - the zap test is the caveman version of titratable alkalinity. If there is unreacted lye it will be harsh to your skin.
(*I do agree that even HP soap continues to cure for a period of time after the cook, albeit to a vastly lesser degree)
I have no financial interest in being "right." All I know is I eat my cooking - I shave with my soap. I have shaved with quite literally hundreds of other soaps; mainstream, artisanal and home-made. I've learned something from every one and learned a little something from every soaper who has cared to share their knowledge. In return I share it back. David, if you read this, I'm not saying you are WRONG, I'm saying that in practice what I've shared works. I'm saying that there are as many professional soapers and scientists who will back it up as you can cite that will not. Let's just agree to disagree. You have to be curious though, so if you are send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to send you a tin of my soap. You can then try it out and offer a critique here - you can even come back here and say it sucks. Maybe it will help someone who wants to make their own soap. I have no secrets.
And thanks for the morning chuckle too ... I'd missed David's rant up there when he posted it. It's a good example of the differences between soap makers. David and I might make exactly the same soap, the same way, have the same results, and explain it differently. I'd cite one set of scientists and he'd cite another and we'd end up not agreeing with each other and all that ... bah. Too much strife. The zap vs pH test is a good example. One soap can be stable and fully cured at one pH level while another is still not ready. When a well known, respected, credentialled chemist (professor/PhD) tells me that the zap test is as reliable as or even more reliable than a pH test, I listen. I'm not commercial, I have no horse in that race. I will say that IF I was comercial and IF I was making the same soap in large batches repeatedly, I would use pH as a relative indicator between batches because if one batch is fully cured at pH X.x the next batch will do the same and THAT is good science and reasonable. Doing pH on your first batch of soap is no more telling than looking at the color of your morning poop and trying to figure out if you are healthy or not. It has no bearing out of context. You can get a pH of 9.8 and have it zap you (indication of unreacted lye) while another batch at 10.0 is *fully cured and mild to your skin (values completely made up). There's a difference between pH and titratable alkalinity - the zap test is the caveman version of titratable alkalinity. If there is unreacted lye it will be harsh to your skin.
(*I do agree that even HP soap continues to cure for a period of time after the cook, albeit to a vastly lesser degree)
I have no financial interest in being "right." All I know is I eat my cooking - I shave with my soap. I have shaved with quite literally hundreds of other soaps; mainstream, artisanal and home-made. I've learned something from every one and learned a little something from every soaper who has cared to share their knowledge. In return I share it back. David, if you read this, I'm not saying you are WRONG, I'm saying that in practice what I've shared works. I'm saying that there are as many professional soapers and scientists who will back it up as you can cite that will not. Let's just agree to disagree. You have to be curious though, so if you are send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to send you a tin of my soap. You can then try it out and offer a critique here - you can even come back here and say it sucks. Maybe it will help someone who wants to make their own soap. I have no secrets.
Lee...thanks again for sharing your knowledge and soap. I shaved with your soap this morning and I think the version I have is unscented...just smells like good ole' soap. I want to reserve a full review for later today. I like to evaluate my shaves in the afternoon or evening so I can judge the post shave feel. However, to let you know...I am very impressed so far. Details to come later.
As far as the Google Fu powers...I do a lot of internet research at work as part my job. I am good at finding things most people can't. I'm not going to say that it was the first website that came up...because it wasn't. But I did find it and I did, use Google. It was just a matter of using key terms, reading articles, changing some key terms, reading more articles, changing all key terms...you you guessed it...reading more articles...and by that time I found your site.
I will get to the review later today. As for now...thanks again for sharing your knowledge, your soap, and most importantly...your heart.
EDIT: I just read David's Rant above also. Well it looks like he disagrees with a lot of what you are saying. I haven't tried his soaps, so I can't comment. But I would like to say...does it really matter? You are not trying to sell your soap, you are just trying to help other along if they choose to make soap at home. My great grandmother made soap at home, many other people make soap at home, it's just soap. It also appears that you both (while disagree on things) are really saying the same thing. Your way is in laymen terms while his is maybe more scientific. Really? Arguing if it is a recipe or formula? Personally I have read many posts of yours Lee, and I have never considered them condescending. I have found that on this forum that you can be critical of a product (just be able to back it up with a little common sense), but if you are going to be critical of a person, then adhere to what my great grandmother, my mother, and likely every matriarch in the world has said at some point in their lives...If you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it at all. Review on the soap later tonight.
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[MENTION=61594]LBussy[/MENTION]
So the day has come and gone and as promised I am back here with a review. First and foremost, I shaved after I showered this morning and I used a pre-shave mixture of carrier oils like I always do. This soap lathered just at least as well as Mystic Waters, WSP Formula T, and PannaCrema (the regular line not Nuavia...sorry Lee). I had a a sample size that was in the shape of a wedge...like a puck of soap was divided into pie like pieces. I wet a side of the soap and smeared it lightly on my face. I took my Omega Pro 49 that had been soaking while I was in the shower and started spreading the soap across my beard area. It didn't take long for a lather to start to build. Once distributed evenly across my face, I then worked water into the lather by dipping the tips of the brush in some water and applying to the lather in circular motions. The lather built very quick.
The shave was smooth and offered lot of protection, glide, and protection. This wasn't the slickest soap I have ever had, but it was plenty slick. Shave was good...I take that back...the shave was great.
Here is where I differentiate most soaps...post shave feel. Like I said above, this soap is very much like the fore-mentioned. I equate this judgement mostly to lathering and post shave feel. My face felt very moisturized all day long. This soap provided one of the better post shave feels I have experienced.
I didn't mention anything about the scent because...well..this one smells like soap. But it definitely wasn't unpleasant. All this being said...this is a great soap...one of the better ones I have ever tried. When my soap making abilities are better, I am definitely going to make this one. Thanks again Lee for the opportunity to try and review this.
So the day has come and gone and as promised I am back here with a review. First and foremost, I shaved after I showered this morning and I used a pre-shave mixture of carrier oils like I always do. This soap lathered just at least as well as Mystic Waters, WSP Formula T, and PannaCrema (the regular line not Nuavia...sorry Lee). I had a a sample size that was in the shape of a wedge...like a puck of soap was divided into pie like pieces. I wet a side of the soap and smeared it lightly on my face. I took my Omega Pro 49 that had been soaking while I was in the shower and started spreading the soap across my beard area. It didn't take long for a lather to start to build. Once distributed evenly across my face, I then worked water into the lather by dipping the tips of the brush in some water and applying to the lather in circular motions. The lather built very quick.
The shave was smooth and offered lot of protection, glide, and protection. This wasn't the slickest soap I have ever had, but it was plenty slick. Shave was good...I take that back...the shave was great.
Here is where I differentiate most soaps...post shave feel. Like I said above, this soap is very much like the fore-mentioned. I equate this judgement mostly to lathering and post shave feel. My face felt very moisturized all day long. This soap provided one of the better post shave feels I have experienced.
I didn't mention anything about the scent because...well..this one smells like soap. But it definitely wasn't unpleasant. All this being said...this is a great soap...one of the better ones I have ever tried. When my soap making abilities are better, I am definitely going to make this one. Thanks again Lee for the opportunity to try and review this.
- Thread starter
- #71
Glad you liked it Don, thanks for sharing!
I wonder where that sample came from. There were very few samples I ever sent out that were unscented. I don;' think I ever sent out any pucks either so someone did some surgery.
Unless it was one of those which were very lightly scented and the scent did not stick - I had a batch that was supposed to be GIT which I considered a failure from a scent perspective. The scent was light when new and may well have gone away completely. At any rate it's got to be a batch that's well over a year old.
As far as slick goes, the slickest I use is probably Tabac. I dislike the after-shave feel of it and it really gums up my sink. Any product is a compromise so I'm glad you were able to experience the moisturizing properties. That's one of the elements I really wanted to capture from all of the ones which served as exemplars. Moisturizing without greasiness. We are after all, men.
I promise you can make that same exact soap; do let us all know when you venture forth!
I wonder where that sample came from. There were very few samples I ever sent out that were unscented. I don;' think I ever sent out any pucks either so someone did some surgery.
Unless it was one of those which were very lightly scented and the scent did not stick - I had a batch that was supposed to be GIT which I considered a failure from a scent perspective. The scent was light when new and may well have gone away completely. At any rate it's got to be a batch that's well over a year old.As far as slick goes, the slickest I use is probably Tabac. I dislike the after-shave feel of it and it really gums up my sink. Any product is a compromise so I'm glad you were able to experience the moisturizing properties. That's one of the elements I really wanted to capture from all of the ones which served as exemplars. Moisturizing without greasiness. We are after all, men.
I promise you can make that same exact soap; do let us all know when you venture forth!
Lee...the sample actually came from the Fragrance Pass Around box I had not too long ago. I know most people get hung up on scents, but when you are talking about a shave soap, most scents don't last longer than the shave anyway, so as long as it is pleasing to my nose, it usually doesn't matter how long it lasts or if it is there at all. As mentioned before...I rather like the smell of just soap.
Lee,
I've thrown some of your soap in the soap passaround as a sample only soap and in the soap sample passaround boxes as well. It gets really good reviews and people are grateful for the opportunity to try something that's pretty much unobtainium.
I've thrown some of your soap in the soap passaround as a sample only soap and in the soap sample passaround boxes as well. It gets really good reviews and people are grateful for the opportunity to try something that's pretty much unobtainium.
I got to try it in the pass around. It's a great soap. I would pay for it for sure.
Also, just follow the directions and soap will turn out. Don't worry about waiting because nothing will prepare you for steric acid.
InNae
- Thread starter
- #75
Stearic Acid saponifying makes it almost like magic ... one of those chemical reactions that happen while you watch that school teachers like to do. The good news is, it's all over but the stirring at that point so there's nearly nothing that can go wrong. I just told someone else if they can make oatmeal they can make soap. I do believe that!
Mmm...oatmeal.
[MENTION=61594]LBussy[/MENTION] So I used the Silver Fox Earl Grey soap a few times now and I have to say that is one of the best post shave soaps I have tried. I have to say that it is probably in the top 3 of the all around best soaps I have tried and maybe even the best. The problem with you giving me a generous "sample" is that now I want to make my own. It might take me a few weeks to acquire all the necessary items (mainly so I don't freak the missus out). In addition to the post shave feel, it also lathers nicely and abundantly. I want to thank you again for sharing, not only your soap, but your knowledge and expertise. I will have to post here when I finally make some soap. Thanks again.
So if you need someone to take some of it off your hands... I might know someone interested. [emoji2] InNae
Yeah...I definitely know what you guys mean. I don't know if you have ever tried the Silver Fox Soaps,,,but if you haven't and you get the opportunity to...please do yourselves a favor.
