American Natural Stone for Hones?

[KindestCutofAll]

Ok, I have read about the Belgians, Jnats, the legendary Escher Thuringian, Welsh stones and slates (Charnley Forest, water of Ayr), etc.

It is my understanding that by comparison Arkansas stones are softer (all I have ever had were small ones) and slower, blah, blah, blah!

This is where you are going to think I'm crazy!

The U.S. mainland is a huge place. We have Slates, Quartz, Obsidian, and more. I want to know if there are any Natural American (or even Canadian) stones of significant note and how they compare to these other natural stones, we seek for honing!

Some of you out there have to have had some experience and I want those of you with actual experience to chime in with your comparisons.

Heck I live in the desserts of Southern California and I see more rock than plants. If there is good stone here I'll make my own hone!

Ideally I would put together a set of Natural American hones for myself, but I actually want them to perform well.


So come on, start giving information already!!!!

 

[mainaman]

I believe the hindostan hone is another example of american hone.

 

[paco664]

anyone who says arkansas stones are soft is welcome to lap either my translucent... or if they feel really tuff my surgical black.....

they defy logic with their hardness.... *(and they make beautiful edges..)

 

[KindestCutofAll]

I believe the hindostan hone is another example of american hone.

If that's true tell me about it and what it compares to.

anyone who says arkansas stones are soft is welcome to lap either my translucent... or if they feel really tuff my surgical black.....

they defy logic with their hardness.... *(and they make beautiful edges..)

OK, Translucent or Black. What would the compare to for performace and grit? Are they slow or fast cutters?

I'm looking for information, not just a name!

 

[paco664]

some people say they are slow finishers... my honest opinion on that is people are unaccustomed to using a bit of pressure when finishing....

i use lessening pressure as i go and i don't feel that either the translucent or surgical black are slow.....

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've seen a couple guys who hone start to finish on Arkansas. I think a queer creek may be a worthwhile sub in for a beveler (not sure how much faster than a soft arkansas or Washita it would be).

As paco said, it's not anything special if you use pressure. They're slow if you don't. Arkansas were actually legendary for their SPEED in the day, because they were used for tools that you sharpened with pressure.



For an arkansas progression you'd go Soft, med, hard, better quality hard. Washita seem to be able to substitute for Soft or in some cases Soft and Medium. A few guys even go Lily White Washita -> Surgical/Trans ark.

 

[Alum of Potash]

To the OP: I'm with you on this one, and hopefully others will chime in here. Opinions may vary, but I have found a soft (medium) Ark, hard Ark, and black Ark progression to be quite doable, but not the ultimate. Perhaps this is due to my present lack of skill; but in any case, I prefer indigenous doable to exotic ultimate for the time being. It depends on what you need. If you are just maintaining an edge, then a very hard Ark (very hard, surgical black, and translucent are theoretically the same regarding density). For removing chips from the edge of an old junker, I have found the a soft/medium Ark will expedite things quickly with half-strokes and pressure. I use honing oil, which others claim is messy; yet I find it to be much neater for my soapstone kitchen counter than water (and SWMBO agrees with me here!). Paco is right when he says they are hard stones; that's for sure. (Hopefully, Paco will also reveal his source of "candy" here as well.) I have a hindostan stone that Gamma sold me a while ago. Cannot report on it because I haven't used it all that much and only recently discovered that I was using the wrong side! I believe it somewhere between a hard and a very hard Ark, probably closer to a hard. It hales from Indiana.

Soft/medium, hard, very hard Ark, surgical black vs. translucent... Visit Dan's Whetstone's site where there is some useful info regarding Arkansas stone density. Natural Whetstones also plays Pepsi to Dan's Coke. For the price, it's better to buy big, especially at the start IMO. My soft/medium is 2-1/2 x 10" and I'm glad for the surface area here. For a more expensive very hard-black-trans, I could even get by on 2" x 6" if needed. The harder stones need A LOT of lapping, so it may be preferable to have something that fits into full sheet of sandpaper here.

 

[Gamma]

Arks are slower than other options, for certain. They do respond well to pressure, but my razors do not so the buck stops there.
Soft arks are generally harder than a Washita, hardness here relates to abrasive particle density. Some Washitas are harder than some Soft Arks, most notably, the Lily Whites.
Washitas were used for honing razors with a stropping stroke, mostly because the widely spaced abrasive particles were claimed to create a rougher edge when a fwd stroke was used. I read that in one of those Geo surveys from the 1800s.
Anyway - aside from who thinks what about who is used to this and that, My SB Ark is slow, but it's an irrelevant point. 200 laps takes a couple of minutes. I can tighten up an edge on my Escher in Less than 50 laps, but I might spend the same amount of time doing that.
I still think the SB is a top tier option for finishing, but I haven't used it in a while due to a Jnat infestation.
Alum- how did you miss the lapped side of that Hindo? I use the wrong side of one of my 1k C aometimes.. Now I write NO in pencil on the unlapped surface.
That Hindo is an interesting specimen, I hope you find a good spot for it in your progression.

 

[mainaman]

If that's true tell me about it and what it compares to.

I am not sure what it compares to, I never used it. In general different types of natural hones (by structure) can't be compared as they work differently. That being said I am not sure what the composition of the hone is.

 

[Gamma]

Hindostan stones are Novaculite stones, there's another type for variant that is either similar or identical in composition and formation too; they're called Macog or something like that. But, they might be from Canada or something.

 

[JRP418]

Do you also use a Coticule? I am going to get a Coticule with slurry stone, looking for another opinion. I have every Arkansas Stone they have made, I love them, looking at getting a Coticule to go with my sets.

 

[danjared]

To the OP: I'm with you on this one, and hopefully others will chime in here. Opinions may vary, but I have found a soft (medium) Ark, hard Ark, and black Ark progression to be quite doable, but not the ultimate. Perhaps this is due to my present lack of skill; but in any case, I prefer indigenous doable to exotic ultimate for the time being. It depends on what you need.

How are you liking the Queer Creek hone I sent you?

Hindostan stones are Novaculite stones, there's another type for variant that is either similar or identical in composition and formation too; they're called Macog or something like that. But, they might be from Canada or something.

Hindostan hones come from a type of sandstone. Novaculite is a different kind of rock.

 

[Alum of Potash]

How are you liking the Queer Creek hone I sent you?

The C. Middlehurst? Love that thing! It bails me out at the end sometimes. Now, if only it were a wee bit larger...

 

[danjared]

C. Middlehurst?

 

[danjared]

Oh, I didn't mean the boxed Arkansas stone. I mean the one I sent with the Kings.

 

[Gamma]

Novaculite is a different kind of rock.

You could be right, I may have the mixed the Hindo in with Arks because the first time I read about them was in one of those old Arkansas geological society studies where they compared a bunch of different Whetstones.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Oh, I didn't mean the boxed Arkansas stone. I mean the one I sent with the Kings.

Ah, another clue on this one... All I can say for the time being is that it has proven to be rather thirsty. Where would you pit it next to the Hindostan? or in an Ark progression? It is most uniform.

Edit: didn't re-read SliceOfLife's earlier post. Thirsty meaning bevel setter, that's about where I had placed this. Love my soft/medium Ark though. Half laps and a l'il pressure with the pinky are the trick there, especially with chip-ridden eBay junkers. The soft/med Ark's density and smoothness are divine, and who can argue with the price. Will use the Queer Creek in this capacity next time so as to compare, although I suspect a lighter touch will be in order, in comparison to starting out with the Ark.

 

[Krodor]

Grit makes no sense with a stone like the surgical black, anyway. Officially it is rated at like 1200 or something. Pshaw, I say. Grit size matters when things stick up above a flat plane. That's not the way these work. These get polished flat, and trust me, getting any kind of slurry is ridonkulous. Someone said they work like a cheese grater, in that the holes between the particles is what does the job, thus the pressure aspect, the polishing-of-the-grit aspect, and the need for oil to keep the pores free. You'll see Arkies graded more by density than grit, as the denser they are, the smaller the pores. The SB I got from Paco (lapping that thing, holy smokes), well, it can put an edge on that is just amazing. I inherited a washita from my grandfather, and though I haven't played with it much, I could see it setting a bevel if I wanted to take the time.

 

[danjared]

Krodor: Those numbers you see are in ANSI units, not JIS. Besides, particle size estimates are nigh worthless on their own.

Alan: Yes, they're thirsty little stones. They were sold as oil stones. Note that they also will glaze over with use, seemingly becoming a bit finer. They were sold as a less expensive alternative to washitas but still aren't that bad. I think they're good for knives. I'm not a geologist, but they seem like some kind of sandstone. As such, they have a good abrasive and are pretty friable. With pressure, they aren't bad for removing steel.

I don't think Norton sells them anymore, but they likely still own the mine. Interestingly, they still have another Ohio hone in their catalogue, which is called the Ohio Blue hone.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've had a couple but never really used them much. Tended to give/sell them to tool guys who got excited by them. I recall hearing they were bevel setters though. Felt like a V-fine carborundum or similar synth (which is 1200-3k by todays standards if memory serves). I found it cut a LOT more like synthetics compared to a soft arky or washi, but again I only tried it a couple times.

Ah, another clue on this one... All I can say for the time being is that it has proven to be rather thirsty. Where would you pit it next to the Hindostan? or in an Ark progression? It is most uniform.

Edit: didn't re-read SliceOfLife's earlier post. Thirsty meaning bevel setter, that's about where I had placed this. Love my soft/medium Ark though. Half laps and a l'il pressure with the pinky are the trick there, especially with chip-ridden eBay junkers. The soft/med Ark's density and smoothness are divine, and who can argue with the price. Will use the Queer Creek in this capacity next time so as to compare, although I suspect a lighter touch will be in order, in comparison to starting out with the Ark.