A true gentleman and rock hound if ever there was one. His posts have added significantly to the knowledge pool.
Natural Hones - Which Family Do You Have the Most Examples Of
- Thread starter duke762
- Start date
I have mostly JNATs because they are my favorite in terms of aesthetics and honing sensation. I like the nagura progression to take me from bevel set to nirvana. I have a few keeper coticules, a few keeper Green Eschers and my collection of Arks / Trans / Charnley's.
My fix is mid-grit and pre finisher JNATs. Hard finishers are great but for me it's all about that perfect scratch-free hazy setup - I particularly like honing on bigger pieces of mikawa nagura and soft awasedo like akapin or suita.
I know it is between UK and JNAT, and I think I am missing some digging around here. It currently looks like 25 UK and 26Jnat.
- Thread starter
- #25
Slish Fish and rideon66, I learned a little more Jnat info from your responses. Thank you! I plan on dipping my toe in that realm someday but learning the terminology has been daunting for me. Until I'm sure about what I'm doing and what I want from a Jnat, with a bankruptcy attorney on speed dial, I'll be on the side lines. It's all coming together for me slowly. With Jnats currently leading the pack on the survey....I'm sure I'm missing something out on something.......something really good.
If you pre-finish an edge to a solid 8, or 10k, you really do not need a large stone and can finish easily on a $100 Kopa, small 4–5-inch stone. You also do not need a progression of nagura, (because you are just finishing) or any nagura at all, just diamond slurry and learn to work the slurry for best results.
So, trying Jnats does not need to be daunting or pricy, really the cost is about the same as a decent 8k finisher, results are a bit keener and much more comfortable edge.
The large, pretty stones are what cost real money, but you don’t need them to finish a razor.
Having most natural stones, Jnats are probably the easiest stone to get a great edge from, the only stone that rivals the Jnat edge, is a good Hard Ark, but that can be more difficult setting up the stone face for your razor.
So, trying Jnats does not need to be daunting or pricy, really the cost is about the same as a decent 8k finisher, results are a bit keener and much more comfortable edge.
The large, pretty stones are what cost real money, but you don’t need them to finish a razor.
Having most natural stones, Jnats are probably the easiest stone to get a great edge from, the only stone that rivals the Jnat edge, is a good Hard Ark, but that can be more difficult setting up the stone face for your razor.
Fixed it for ya lol
I think the main reason that Jnats and Coticules are so far in front is that they are so varied from stone to stone. No matter how many you have you can always get another one and it will be unique. Both classes of stone also have many subtypes which people like to tick off in their collection. Once you have a good ark you’re done. There’s little point in getting another unless you want a bigger size. Jnats are seriously good though. No arguments there.
Jnats and high carbon simple steel is a marriage made in heaven. Stainless steels and the esoteric powdered metal steels not so much, fbut for traditional razors Jnats are very hard to beat. Plus you can use different naguras ion the very hard ones for coarser work, don't need so many stones.
Coticules are similar, it's quite possible to get one that will set a bevel easily but also give a very nice finish by manipulating the slurry concentration. Makes both types very versatile which isn't the case with novaculite stones or slates.
Coticules are similar, it's quite possible to get one that will set a bevel easily but also give a very nice finish by manipulating the slurry concentration. Makes both types very versatile which isn't the case with novaculite stones or slates.
I think you’re right. These are hobbyist stones. There is so much you can do with them in terms of slurry and technique. You never get bored of using them. Plus you have the thrill of the hunt in trying to find the perfect example out in the wild.
Fixed that for you
- Thread starter
- #32
Kopa....well it's off to Gamma's website, to hit the glossary...again. Thank you H Brad, another piece of info. That really gives me hope to try sooner than later. Dang...terminology again. Until I've mastered that some more. Kopa huh, I going window shopping.....
I'm almost 1 year into the honing hobby.
8 coticules
5 jnat base stones with tomos
5 mikawa nagura
7 coticules (2 I can finish on)
1 escher 5x2.5
1 srd Thur 7x1.5
1 5x1.5 tam woa combo
Ark for Christmas, and saving for the one and done jnat. And a old good finisher coti.
8 coticules
5 jnat base stones with tomos
5 mikawa nagura
7 coticules (2 I can finish on)
1 escher 5x2.5
1 srd Thur 7x1.5
1 5x1.5 tam woa combo
Ark for Christmas, and saving for the one and done jnat. And a old good finisher coti.
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I haven’t done inventory counts, but Coticule are by far the majority. For shaving edges I’m probably
40% Coticules
20% Arks
20% Thuringian
20% Random stones from all over.
40% Coticules
20% Arks
20% Thuringian
20% Random stones from all over.
Arkansas (including Washitas) - Probably 50+... half good user stones and other half keepers/collection stones (that also get used... but are stones I would not sell).
The next three will swap based on what scores I'm getting on eBay lately... Coti probably in the lead now on a technicality that I have a bunch of little scrappy ones I don't use but haven't bothered selling (the 5 stones I got from the baker, a bunch of 4-6 inch vintages I got in lots)... but if we're talking stones that are STAYING in my collection, the order is below:
French (PDSO) - 20+ owned... all keepers. I don't like La Lunes or SSofgRs.
German (Thuri) - 20+ owned maybe half are keepers
Belgian (coti) - 20+ owned a lil less than half are keepers.
Jnats (10ish)
UK (~10... only ones I use these days are my big tam and that green thing I used to think was a Charn... Also got a black tam, a woa, a boxed Yellow Lake, a charn or two, and a Lynn Id or two)
Turkey (3... don't get used cause Washita exist)
Cnat (3? They're in my garden... does that count)
Jnats I don't buy often unless I see one that ACTUALLY looks like it's 50+ years old (all the sellers claim everything they sell is I assume because the "best" mines closed then?) and really looks interesting to me. I went on my Jnat spree a decade ago and bought a couple dozen stones... All but a benchstone-sized Tenjou Nagura and a Tomo I bought are gone from that era. I KEEP stones that remind me of Thuri's or are even finer than Thuris but also easy to use... And those are somewhat rare... though less so if you're better at picking them than I am, I'd imagine.
Jnats I've kept: 2 Mystery stone bought from a couple randos on eBay as unknown stones that I only THINK are Jnat (sellers were in US/EU iirc). Both incredible stones, ultra fine.
4 modernish stones from the selection of regular eBay guys I bought cause they looked cool and kept cause they worked good. Thuri like.
2 Vintage stones that came on very old looking stands. Both Thuri like but one a lil less fine (close to thuri finisher on one side, prefinisher on the other in fact).
2 Vintage stones that came in/on Kamisori stands. One older with wood stand another more recent with plastic. Both are Thuri-like.
Who has the best stones? (Exclusively for my honing and considering how easy/consistent stones are without having to trust a vendor or try a million stones)
For non-razors: US >>>> UK* >>>> Japan > Belgium > France > Germany > China
For Razors: France > Germany > Japan >> US >> Belgium >>>> UK > China
*Really like that green thing and white tams for knives. Most people would prolly put Japan and possibly Belgium ahead of UK for tools... but not me. I also don't have any German stones other than Thuri and the occasionall Schwedenstein... Maybe if I had a troutstone, or a Frankonian... that'd bump Germany up in the tool rankings? As it is, I use exclusively US and UK nats for nonrazors... plus synths. I don't use Chinese Nats these days, Germany France Belgium and Japan are Razor-exclusive stones for me (and my buying/keeping habits reflect that... IE I don't HAVE any coarse/low grit work Jnats... so not really fair).
Razors I use everything (other than China)... but UK is used VERY rarely. France, Germany, Japan, US and Belgium all used fairly frequently... though there is a dropoff after Japan and another after US. Basically F=G=J for frequency cause all finish great and are easy. US less often as it isn't as automatic. Belgium my favorite stones kind of straddle between the two camps, but get used slightly less than US. It also loses spots in the ranking as (especially buying modern stones), you're not guaranteed to get a stone that keeps up with the ones I use (My user cotis are the top 1% of HUNDREDS of coti's I have bought), though 98% of vintage coti's are still gonna beat out Uk stones and Cnats in my opinion... pretty easily in fact.
The next three will swap based on what scores I'm getting on eBay lately... Coti probably in the lead now on a technicality that I have a bunch of little scrappy ones I don't use but haven't bothered selling (the 5 stones I got from the baker, a bunch of 4-6 inch vintages I got in lots)... but if we're talking stones that are STAYING in my collection, the order is below:
French (PDSO) - 20+ owned... all keepers. I don't like La Lunes or SSofgRs.
German (Thuri) - 20+ owned maybe half are keepers
Belgian (coti) - 20+ owned a lil less than half are keepers.
Jnats (10ish)
UK (~10... only ones I use these days are my big tam and that green thing I used to think was a Charn... Also got a black tam, a woa, a boxed Yellow Lake, a charn or two, and a Lynn Id or two)
Turkey (3... don't get used cause Washita exist)
Cnat (3? They're in my garden... does that count)
Jnats I don't buy often unless I see one that ACTUALLY looks like it's 50+ years old (all the sellers claim everything they sell is I assume because the "best" mines closed then?) and really looks interesting to me. I went on my Jnat spree a decade ago and bought a couple dozen stones... All but a benchstone-sized Tenjou Nagura and a Tomo I bought are gone from that era. I KEEP stones that remind me of Thuri's or are even finer than Thuris but also easy to use... And those are somewhat rare... though less so if you're better at picking them than I am, I'd imagine.
Jnats I've kept: 2 Mystery stone bought from a couple randos on eBay as unknown stones that I only THINK are Jnat (sellers were in US/EU iirc). Both incredible stones, ultra fine.
4 modernish stones from the selection of regular eBay guys I bought cause they looked cool and kept cause they worked good. Thuri like.
2 Vintage stones that came on very old looking stands. Both Thuri like but one a lil less fine (close to thuri finisher on one side, prefinisher on the other in fact).
2 Vintage stones that came in/on Kamisori stands. One older with wood stand another more recent with plastic. Both are Thuri-like.
Who has the best stones? (Exclusively for my honing and considering how easy/consistent stones are without having to trust a vendor or try a million stones)
For non-razors: US >>>> UK* >>>> Japan > Belgium > France > Germany > China
For Razors: France > Germany > Japan >> US >> Belgium >>>> UK > China
*Really like that green thing and white tams for knives. Most people would prolly put Japan and possibly Belgium ahead of UK for tools... but not me. I also don't have any German stones other than Thuri and the occasionall Schwedenstein... Maybe if I had a troutstone, or a Frankonian... that'd bump Germany up in the tool rankings? As it is, I use exclusively US and UK nats for nonrazors... plus synths. I don't use Chinese Nats these days, Germany France Belgium and Japan are Razor-exclusive stones for me (and my buying/keeping habits reflect that... IE I don't HAVE any coarse/low grit work Jnats... so not really fair).
Razors I use everything (other than China)... but UK is used VERY rarely. France, Germany, Japan, US and Belgium all used fairly frequently... though there is a dropoff after Japan and another after US. Basically F=G=J for frequency cause all finish great and are easy. US less often as it isn't as automatic. Belgium my favorite stones kind of straddle between the two camps, but get used slightly less than US. It also loses spots in the ranking as (especially buying modern stones), you're not guaranteed to get a stone that keeps up with the ones I use (My user cotis are the top 1% of HUNDREDS of coti's I have bought), though 98% of vintage coti's are still gonna beat out Uk stones and Cnats in my opinion... pretty easily in fact.
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Recently, I've gone all in on Canadian stones from Royal Flint Abrasives in Alberta.
My first one was the Lochinvar stone and it did a nice job, so I followed up with an Invicta and a Persian. All have worked well on putting a sharp, smooth edge on my razors. So far I think the Invicta is the best, but I really need to do more honing to know which is working best overall. I also have a Rosetta stone on order, but it's stuck in the Canadian Postal strike unfortunately. I have some Nagura slurry stones on the way as well to hopefully bring out the best in these stones.
These are all water stones and are novaculite or clay matrix (which is a by-product of novaculite?)to one degree or another and I'm beginning to get some of my best edges ever. In my somewhat short experience with razor honing, I can't say if these are the best stones out there, but I'd recommend giving them a shot if you're looking for something different.
My first one was the Lochinvar stone and it did a nice job, so I followed up with an Invicta and a Persian. All have worked well on putting a sharp, smooth edge on my razors. So far I think the Invicta is the best, but I really need to do more honing to know which is working best overall. I also have a Rosetta stone on order, but it's stuck in the Canadian Postal strike unfortunately. I have some Nagura slurry stones on the way as well to hopefully bring out the best in these stones.
These are all water stones and are novaculite or clay matrix (which is a by-product of novaculite?)to one degree or another and I'm beginning to get some of my best edges ever. In my somewhat short experience with razor honing, I can't say if these are the best stones out there, but I'd recommend giving them a shot if you're looking for something different.
- Thread starter
- #38
Wow, Slice! That's impressive! And I thought I was out of control with Arks. I bet you would grab another if the price was right and it tickled your fancy..... Well that's the way Arks are with me anyhow...
Exactly. I don't score many hard arks these days... because they tend to be more fought over and hard to get a deal on the bigger examples. (I did score a couple recently, but I overpaid from my perspective). But I'll still snag Washita's. A clean 8x2x1" for under $50... or even under $25 sometimes is hard to pass up... and even things like boxed/labeled 8" stones under $100 still pop up now and then. Can't pass on that... especially since vintage washita stone:
1. is not mined anymore... modern washita is as I understand it closer to soft arkansas than vintage washita.
2. Actually do wear... so unlike hard arks which 99% will last until someone loses or breaks them... people use up washita's... so while they are still plentiful, they won't always be.
1. is not mined anymore... modern washita is as I understand it closer to soft arkansas than vintage washita.
2. Actually do wear... so unlike hard arks which 99% will last until someone loses or breaks them... people use up washita's... so while they are still plentiful, they won't always be.
- Thread starter
- #40
My feelings exactly Slice. Great minds think alike I tell ya'. Vintage Washita's are the bee's knees, there's something really special about them. I haven't been too impressed with Norton #1's or regular Norton Washitas, but 4 unidentified Washitas I have are to die for. Three are brown with stains that will never come out, possibly white at one time, and they work like a charm and never complain or let me down. I could do 95% of the sharpening most people would ever do, on them, and have fantastic results. over, and over again.
