Who Loves The Old British Revolvers? Bulldogs Anyone?

[Phog Allen]

Gents, I have to admit to being appreciative of the humble revolver. I know its days are done as an issue piece for law enforcement and that most wheelgun development these days is driven toward hunting or target shooting. It still does not negate their effectiveness. I really like the Wheel Gun lovers thread and wanted to add a subset here; British Revolvers and their clones. I confess I do not own any but it does not stop me from wanting to! They are fetching hefty prices these days and I am not familiar enough with them to know what I should look out for mechanically. Some of those English pieces were quite intricate in their actions and ejection systems and I don't want a paperweight. I want something I can hand load squibs or mild rounds for and enjoy a bit of shooting. Competent gunsmith check first of course.


The old Webley military models have a real look to them and history too. However, I am going to start off with their British Bulldog model. The Winchester repeating rifle may have won the west but I'd wager the Bulldog and its copies tamed more bullies. At less than half the price of a new Peacemaker the Bulldog was a natural choice for both copper and crook alike. And though anemic by modern considerations, I would not want to take a hit from a .450 Adams cartridge! I think I have read that Jeff Cooper himself called it the best pocket/concealed carry pistol ever. Pretty hefty praise from the old master. I wish a new version would come out chambered for rounds like 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP. The pistol looked so danged gorgeous because the short cylinder and frame matched the short barrel better. I know where most would go right now. Why not just buy a Charter Arms Bulldog and done? Tempting but I have always though the Charter to be a bit ugly. The longer cylinder and frame matched with 2" barrel is not as proportionate as the old Bulldog they are named after. A version with a 3" barrel would be grand with those short frames.

So what are your favouites? I am linking in generic pictures from the web since as I said, I don't own any of them...yet. Feel free to share your favourites as well. Royal Irish Constabulary anyone? Heck, lets add in various European revolvers to boot. We're daydreaming here with imaginary, unlimited funds so queue up your faves.

 

[noelekal]

I'll enthusiastically raise my hand over both revolvers and British revolvers, bulldogs or otherwise. I'm a huge fan of Doyle's Sherlock Holmes, doing a habitual bi-annual read through all the stories just now. Holmes' revolver, as described in the stories, was a .32 Bulldog type. Dr. Watson refers to his old "army revolver" which mostly likely would have been an .450 Adams but could have been an .476 Enfield

Don't have any Bulldog revolvers but do have a pair of Webleys around here. A shabby looking Mark IV .455 from the Boar War era and a Mark IV .38/200 from the middle of World War II.

The .455 in particular is a right ol' thumper, offering as good short range ballistics as most any non-magum straight-walled big bore handgun round. It's accurate to and "hits where it looks." Some years ago I took this rat while mowing out at our old lake cabin while wearing the big Webley in a 4-inch Smith & Wesson N-Frame holster (perfect fit in case anyone needs to know). The rat ran out of the small remaining stand of tall grass in the middle as I was finishing up. A lucky snap shot plowed a furrow in the side of his head, trimming off his left ear and left eye.

 

[Phog Allen]

Bully for the rat killing! I'd carry that birds head Webley any time. And a .455 to boot! I guess it is the Anglophile in me but I love the English revolvers. Don't get me wrong. I bleed red, white, and blue for the Winchesters, Colts, Ruger Blackhawks, etc. but there is something decidedly 'civilised' about a weapon that looks that classy. Sherlock Holmes stories were fantastic. I have the whole canon here at the gaff. John Watson was hardly the lovable but just-a-moment-behind goof he is oft portrayed in Hollywood. He was an essential tool in the detective cases they worked on and was no dunce with his service revolvers. I sure hope we get more posters in this thread. Particularly photos. Hint, hint chaps.

 

[noelekal]

I have to agree, Phog Allen. I love classic Smith & Wessons above all but Colt and Webley revolvers tie for an honored second place. Don't really have much use for any other brands but that's just personal opinion.

The top-break feature of the Webley is more advance than that used by 19th century American companies. Wish they were still made of modern materials.The Webleys are fast and slick and both square butt grip and birdshead grip are ergonomically sound in design. Both make handling the guns a breeze. Have also shot a Webley Mark VI .455 (in England no less, at an indoor range beneath a pub- but that was another time, prior to their wretched '97 handgun ban) and it was great too with its square butt and 6-inch barrel.

 

[Phog Allen]

Here's a photo of a French Lebel Model 1874. The Franco revolvers were not necessarily held in grand esteem for effectiveness but there is no denying the classic lines.

 

[Phog Allen]

Webley 1868 No.1 Royal Irish Constabulary.

 

[john parker]

Webley 1868 No.1 Royal Irish Constabulary.

Stunning design! Almost art novelle!

 

[sixgun_symphony]

I like the .455 Webley revolvers. It was a mistake for them to go over to a .38 caliber IMO.

 

[Phog Allen]

I like the .455 Webley revolvers. It was a mistake for them to go over to a .38 caliber IMO.

I concur. Modern ballistics and bullet construction aside, in the Victorian era there was only one type of bullet prevalent; lead. And it was pushed by black powder. Well, Cordite for some of the Brit rifles but we're speaking to revolvers here so it is really simple. Black powder generally pushes bullets of equivalent ratio to the same velocities for a given volume. I hope I said that right. Anyway, it means that if you have a cartridge case one inch long in .38 calibre(typically .355-.357) and a case the same length in .44 calibre then the velocity of each will be almost the same given a bullet of equivalent design and sectional density given a full case of black powder which is the way it should be loaded. It's just the way black powder works. So the only really effective way to increase power was to increase bullet diameter and hence, bullet weight. I know some of the .38 service revolvers used smokeless powder for propellent but pressures were quite low compared to modern ammo. I suppose they realised most would be fired in black powder rated firearms and loaded accordingly. Anyway, the short of it is this; the Brits knew a dished lead .45 calibre bullet at a modest 650-750 fps was quite effective and it was not called a man stopper for nothing. I know the current trend is for the FBI to say the medium bores are effective since it takes multiple hits to reliably stop determined people but a nice-230-250 grain round nose or semi-wadcutter at around 800fps is nothing I would want to have shot at me!

 

[MichaeltheRomanHistorian]

I see noelekal got here first but I am also a Webley enthusiast (and a Luger and Broomhandle enthusiast). I even have two of the semi-auto Webley pistols (in .455 Webley Auto and .32 ACP). So here a few photos of my Webley revolvers (given that 4 August 2014 (a few days ago) was the 100th anniversary of the British Empire declaring war on Imperial Germany for the First World War.

Webley Mk I** (Webley Mk I lower with a Mk VI upper, still in the original .455 Webley)

Webley Mk V (with 1914 markings), shaved for .45 ACP but I have a little moon clip doodad that some fellow in Arizona makes and sells on E-bay. The clip is essentially a way to make up for the shaved bit of cylinder and allows me to shoot .455 (and, mine are secure enough to act as speedloaders).

Webley Mk VI with the not hugely common .22 calibre conversion cylinder and sight. I have about 9 Webley revolvers (mostly Mk VI and Mk I models) and they're in the wheelgun thread. If I could find a MK II or Mk III then my collection would be complete! But I'm wanting a second .455 semi-auto pistol (only 8,000 or so made).

 

[noelekal]

OOOooo... Webleys abounding! Love the photo group, Michael!

"Likes" would happen if the feature was available on the Forum.

 

[Phog Allen]

Michael, outstanding collection. Would you mind doing me a small favour? Can you take a measurement of the .455's cylinder length? I have this fanciful notion of someday badgering a replica revolver company into making a copy of the Webley Bulldog I posted earlier. I always wondered if a repro could be made to hold the various short rounds for autos like .45 acp, 9mm Luger, .40 saw and so on.

With modern metallurgy pressures are no problem but Webley style revolvers would not look right with modern length revolver cylinders. The Bulldog was dead simple and the rimless cartridges are no issue since the Bulldogs are solid frame revolvers with an ejector rod like a single action Colt. No swing out cylinder. It would be great if some of the old dogs and their copies could be bored out to take these rounds but they were almost all designed for black powder or very mild smokeless charges and the metals were not heat treated. Any attempt at that Tomfoolery would end in disaster. The Bulldog is all kinds of Victorian Era cool.

 

[MichaeltheRomanHistorian]

Consider the small favour done (my apologies for not responding sooner as I have had a friend visiting from out of town). I measured my unmolested .455 revolvers and they look like approximately 37mm (maybe 37.5mm) in length for the cylinders still in .455. The Bulldog isn't something I've begun acquiring yet, myself. I have tended to only collect WWI era Lugers and Webleys (alas, none of my Broomhandles are WWI issue but they're still quite fun).

To all of you: There's something about British semi-auto pistols and revolvers which I just love. It's hard for me to not want more!

noelekal: The 1914 Mk V is my favourite. Can you believe she's 100 years old now?

Michael

Michael, outstanding collection. Would you mind doing me a small favour? Can you take a measurement of the .455's cylinder length? I have this fanciful notion of someday badgering a replica revolver company into making a copy of the Webley Bulldog I posted earlier. I always wondered if a repro could be made to hold the various short rounds for autos like .45 acp, 9mm Luger, .40 saw and so on.

With modern metallurgy pressures are no problem but Webley style revolvers would not look right with modern length revolver cylinders. The Bulldog was dead simple and the rimless cartridges are no issue since the Bulldogs are solid frame revolvers with an ejector rod like a single action Colt. No swing out cylinder. It would be great if some of the old dogs and their copies could be bored out to take these rounds but they were almost all designed for black powder or very mild smokeless charges and the metals were not heat treated. Any attempt at that Tomfoolery would end in disaster. The Bulldog is all kinds of Victorian Era cool.

 

[Phog Allen]

Thank you Michael. 37-38mm is about perfect for any short auto round or even custom wildcat revolver rounds like .45 Colt or .44 Special shortened to case lengths of around .800 or .900 (22-23mm). Loaded with semi-wadcutter or truncated cone bullets these would be fabulous little shooters but still have enough authority to use for self defense if the need arose. A gent wrote an article in Guns & Ammo decades ago about his use of a .45 acp loaded with 250gr. lead swc bullets at around 900 fps . He lived and hunted in South Africa and used the combo to hunt a lot of game you would have thought was out of its class. The British learned a long time ago that a big blob of lead at 600-800 fps is very potent bit of medicine.

 

[noelekal]

No, Michael. 1914 doesn't seem as if it could now be a century in the dim past. There are a whole host of guns in the 100-125 year old range that I'd still feel very well armed with.

 

[Phog Allen]

To whomever corrected my original thread title spelling, thank you. I was unable to do it and it bothered me to have the misspelling in such a glaring way.

 

[RichieRich3902]

I hope your project works out since I love old webleys and bulldogs. The common problem with top break revolvers chambered for even light .38 special loads like the ones used in cowboy action is the eventually shoot loose. The split frame isn't strong enough and has a limited service life. This is why you don't see top break revolvers anymore other than the scholfield copies used in CAS.

 

[lewwallace]

Here'some of my solid frames. Guess what they are and I'll send ya a cookie!