Changing needs as I age

[jar_]

Some people … and I thought I was old and grumpy.

You narrow your search down to 5 pistols, post it, and then argue if anyone expresses an opinion over any of them.

If you can’t tolerate an 11 pound slide weight, why even put it on your list?

Good luck to you.

Because it is the reference to explain why it is NOT working.

As I explained in my posts it is pistols like my Shield 9mm & 45acp that ARE the problem. On bad days for me and almost all days for my sister and brother-in-law a Shield is simply near impossible to rack.

And I'm certainly not arguing with you, or anyone one else for that matter, but I am also not going to suggest that a 22lr is not a valid self defense option for many people. In addition I have tried to point out why the Ruger LCP II 22lr Lite Rack is on the list rather than my H&R 923 or Walther PPK/s or Beretta Bobcat or Taurus PT22Poly.

I can get my sister to learn to shoot and manage and maintain the LCP II 22lr but she will not do that with the H&R 923 or Walther PPK/s or Beretta Bobcat or Taurus PT22Poly. She tried them and simply was unable to rack the slides on any of the pistols or pull the trigger in DA on the H&R or reliably **** the hammer. And it was too heavy and too ugly. She is also extemely noise and recoil adverse.

 

[Columbo]

If you are having trouble racking pistols with heavier cartridge loads, then you might want to consider some revolver models. The only other thing I could suggest with heavier slide weights is to pre-chamber the first round when feeling your best (which on a carry you should do anyway).

There is a fairly predictable correlation between load charge and recoil spring tension on magazine fed models. Models that deviate much from that correlation tend to exhibit other issues.

No one is questioning the potential lethality of a 22 round. One round, precisely placed, may be enough. Maybe. But if not, you'll need more rounds. And the firearm better deliver them, or you're in big trouble.

The problem is asking too much of that cartridge load in a magazine model. It has to discharge the projectile, and also completely cycle the rack against that recoil spring, and operate the associated ejection and firing pin reset mechanisms. Completely. That is asking a lot out of a 22LR load, even the high velocity ones. The margin for a cycling failure is much higher with that cartridge on a slider. And that's a stone cold fact. And the last thing you want in a SD situation is your firearm to jam.

And that is all that I was pointing out.

And that is separate from the inherently higher failure to fire rates on those rimfire cartridges.

I mentioned Mrs. Columbo's little Airweight for a reason. She doesn't have to rack it, or worry about it misfeeding, and it is an enclosed hammer model. It is point and shoot, and 'almost' maintenance free. And in a SD situation, it is the rare exception that anyone ever needs more than five rounds, and with a 38 Special at nearer ranges. It is quite lethal in the hands of even a little old lady.

Something like that, or even a 22 in a revolver if you must have a 22, is a lot more dependable than a 22 slider in a life-or-death situation.

Again, good luck to you in your search.

 

[jar_]

Moving on to experience with the S&W 380EZ, Walther CCP M2 380 and the two Rugers.

As I mentioned above I first got the S&W 380EZ and then the Ruger LCP II 22lr Lite Rack. The 380EZ was simply reliable right from the beginning while the little Ruger exhibited lite strikes and failure to eject initially. Most failure to fires were actually duds from old bulk pack Federal, Remington and Aguila that I had. Initially I tested all the rounds that failed to fire by firt retrying them in the Ruger and if they failed to fire a second time trying them in my Walther PPK/s that tends to fire anything. All but one round that failed to fire twice in the Ruger also failed in the Walther. I had zero failure to load, failure to go into battery, failure to fire or failure to eject when using individual packs from CCI and Aguila. After about 250 rounds through the little Ruger even the bulk pack worked unless it was a total dud. Fortunately the slide effort on the LCP II is low enough that my sister very quickly learned to rack the slide and load a new round.

She also had no issues managing the 380EZ and the recoil impulse is really closer to 22lr from the little LCP II than even I expected.

On to the CCP and Security 380.

Neither my sister or her husband have experienced either of those but I've run several hundred rounds through both.

The CCP like the 380EZ is a slim grip single stack with eight round magazines. Both came with two magazines and the 380EZ mags have helper posts to aid in loading. The CCP mags are the 9mm Luger mags with a spacer to guide the shorter 380. The slide serations on the CCP are really sharp (particularly on the left front) and honestly were the least comfortable of all the four pistols. It has been improved over the first version and now take down is tool less. BUT as a striker fired system you do need to pull the trigger and since the Walther also has a magazine disconnect you need to have an empty magazine to field strip. Field strip was pretty simple though while reassemble takes some practice.

The CCP unlike the other 380s is a fixed barrel recoil spring around the barrel Browning design. To make it low recoil impulse though Walther uses a piston delay system. There is a small hole right at the end of the chamber that bleeds off gas while the bullet itself is still in the barrel and keeps the slide from moving until the bullet leaves the barrel. Then the slide can begin moving rearward as the piston forces the gas back out through the tiny hole further softening recoil and spreading it over a slightly longer period.

But on reassembly you have to guide the piston back into its cylinder and honestly, it took me a half dozen or so reassembly sessions before I got the hang of it.

That piston delay system, fixed barrel and the utterly fantastic grip made the CCP the easiest and most accurate of the group. As it came from the box it shot about two inches low at seven yards but the gun does come with two additional height front sights to adjust vertical corrections and a easy to adjust rear for windage rear sight. The front sight accepts any Glock 19 sights and installs with a Phillips head bolt. You do need to drive out a pin and get the piston out of the way but once that's done changing the front sight is simple.

The trigger on the CCP has a definite split personality. If you try to stage it what you feel is a mushy, gritty trigger with no real discernible wall. If you simply smoothly pull through though it is delightful. For bullseye or accuracy I'd say it sucks but for SD it was near ideal.

Like all the pistols on the list the CCP also has a thumb safety and in my estimation, one of the best. It's small enough to not be an obstruction but so easy to use that it quickly became natural.

The safety and showing the slide in field strip mode.

 

[Filudo]

I hope the CCP Mod2 improved how you take it apart, as it was a real nightmare. Check SW Equalizer, just like the EZ but more rounds if you live in a free state.

 

[jar_]

I hope the CCP Mod2 improved how you take it apart, as it was a real nightmare. Check SW Equalizer, just like the EZ but more rounds if you live in a free state.

The Equalizer is only 9mm Luger for now. And the CCP M2 is a no tool take down now. Pull trigger to releader striker then puch in the circle and slide to right.

 

[Filudo]

Nice change to the system. The 1st version 9m, was a night mare to take a part, it even broke once. Size almost like G19 and if you fire many rounds, gets very HOT where the piston lives...

 

[joel]

No fancy electronic sights to break, no batteries to find dead, when you need them most. Just have to keep the frames wet. If I get lazy enough, I may trade them both for wheel guns, and call it a day.

I did this years ago. Interestingly enough - my nightstand gun was also a P220. Nothing beats a revolver as a home defense gun likely to be neglected for many years. I have a few stashed around the house in speed safes. The main nightstand HD revolver is a S&W 8 shot Performance center M&P with a light and laser mounted to it loaded up with Hornady critical defense sitting in moon clips, with 2 mon clips loaded up next to it ready for action. Absolute tack driver - I’d be confident taking 100 yard shots with that gun. Elsewhere in the house, I’ve got multiple S&W performance center 7 shot 586 L-comps with moon clips. The compensator does magic with .357 mag - and they can be rapid fired with ease. Highly recommend both.

The above said - they‘re both 36oz guns, so they‘re larger/heavier and the double action trigger pull - and .357 mag recoil would not be kind to arthritic hands.

 

[jar_]

Nice change to the system. The 1st version 9m, was a night mare to take a part, it even broke once. Size almost like G19 and if you fire many rounds, gets very HOT where the piston lives...

I think they may have also made some changes related to the area under the piston getting hot. I ran a full box of ammo through it and the area under the piston didn't seem particularly hot. Certainly not as hot as the slide near the muzzle.

 

[jar_]

The Ruger Security 380:

The Ruger Security 380 Lite Rack is a hammer fired, staggered stack model. Like all the others it has a manual thumb safety but unlike the others, it also locks the slide. With the other four pistols it is possible to work the slide with the pistol safety on. For new users in particular that can be a very good thing letting them safely & comfortably check to see if a round is chambered. The safety is unusual pivoting from the front. That makes it easy to swipe down for fire but difficult to accidentally swipe it off to safe. Again, for new users that can be a very good feature.

When swiping up with your thumb you first contact the fixed pivot point. To safe the pistol you need to touch the rear end of the lever and that means either shifting the grip in you dominate hand or using the other hand which naturally hits the rear edge first.

As a staggered stack design the grip is slightly wider than any of the others and that extra width does help spread any recoil impulse over a larger area. In most states it comes with 10 & 15 round magazines or 10 & 10 where required by law. Ruger also includes an aid for loading the magazines.

The slide is lightened with cut outs and indentations to also reduce the mass as much as possible.

Field strip procedures are classic Ruger, there is a pin that needs to come out. Unlike most other Ruger pistols you need to hold the slide back slightly to align with a slide cutout. In the view of the left side it is seen right in front of the take down pin. Fortunately the slide effort is so low that both my sister ad her husband could easily line things up. Surprisingly I found I could get the pin out using a finger nail. Insertion on reassembly also requires lining things up until the pin simply slips into place.

The front sight is a green fiber optic and really easy to pick up while the rear is a simply blacked out notch. Both are dovetail.

Shooting was similar to the others, really really soft. Accuracy was about the same and again, very repeatable.

None of the pistols was significantly more accurate or reliable or softer shooting than the other 380s. They all just worked.

 

[Ad Astra]

"What will you shoot in your 70s and 80s" is a valid question, IMO.

I am related to a very good man. Lifetime LEO. Unfortunately, he did not plan for the succession of his firearms ... and had only daughters, with, shall we say, antigun leanings. He had a knee issue, went in for surgery, and now's dumped in a facility. In a rush to steal his home and stuff, the daughters disposed of everything "Papi" had, but ignorant of the value and of course inspired by ideology, simply took his pistol collection to the local police office. (Who gladly accepted them, waited for the door to close, and passed them out to each other - I bet.)

Have a plan. Guns outlive us, or so my 1923-made DWM Luger tells me. It would know, it's 100.


AA

 

[jar_]

"What will you shoot in your 70s and 80s" is a valid question, IMO.

I am related to a very good man. Lifetime LEO. Unfortunately, he did not plan for the succession of his firearms ... and had only daughters, with, shall we say, antigun leanings. He had a knee issue, went in for surgery, and now's dumped in a facility. In a rush to steal his home and stuff, the daughters disposed of everything "Papi" had, but ignorant of the value and of course inspired by ideology, simply took his pistol collection to the local police office. (Who gladly accepted them, waited for the door to close, and passed them out to each other - I bet.)

Have a plan. Guns outlive us, or so my 1923-made DWM Luger tells me. It would know, it's 100.


AA

For me there are two answers. On a good day it's "Anything I want" while on far too many other days it's "What I can".

And have Simpson's on speed dial.

 

[jar_]

Back on my experiences along this journey.

Before I found the S&W 380EZ I had let my sister and her husband try quite a few of my handguns but with only limited success.

My brother-in-law did like my Tisas 1911 Carry (a commander size) 45acp but after living with it he decided it was simply too heavy. I then swapped my S&W Shield 2.0 45acp for my Carry and he liked the weight better, but found that racking the slide was simply too much.

Neither of the pair found my S&W Airweight Centennial usable even with reduced weight hammer and trigger springs and they both found the recoil impulse from factory 38 Special painful and return to POA difficult and slow.

My sister loves the little Pico with it's purple frame but simply cannot rack it.

As I mentioned I did get each of them a Handi-Racker that fit their pistol but that is not practical for a SD carry option. The thing works and if we were only talking range toys would be a viable option.

I do have a few handguns so they did get to try a bunch of options yet so far, the S&W 380EZ and the Ruger LCP II 22lr Lite Rack seem the best choices.

They can both load and shoot and field strip and reassemble the pistols. They can both shoot the pistol accurately, quickly and repeatedly.

Sure, neither 380 or 22lr are what most folk consider viable SD cartridges.

But performance and reliability and availability are getting better almost daily. The little LCP II 22lr has been super reliable after about 300 rounds and I put in a heavier extractor spring and lighter firing pin spring. Since then I haven't had any light strikes or failure to eject even when shooting bulk pack ammo. It also has the lightest average slide effort of the group and so racking in the case of a total dud cartridge is reasonable and with failure drill practice not a serious problem. But so far I haven't had a single dud show up when using the individual pack CCI Mini Mag or Aguila Super Extra ammo.

 

[OkieStubble]

So does old age really have that big of a significance on racking slides and charging firearms in order to carry?

Is there something us aging CCW carriers can do to either prevent or slow down the inevitable of not being able to function the manual of arms with the pistols we already have, instead of having to find something else that we still can?

Is keeping one’s arms and grip strength with weight resistance training and drinking protein supplements to help keep muscle mass with our aging body’s a viable plan or option?

An inquiring mind would like to know?

 

[jar_]

So does old age really have that big of a significance on racking slides and charging firearms in order to carry?

Is there something us aging CCW carriers can do to either prevent or slow down the inevitable of not being able to function the manual of arms with the pistols we already have, instead of having to find something else that we still can?

Is keeping one’s arms and grip strength with weight resistance training and drinking protein supplements to help keep muscle mass with our aging body’s a viable plan or option?

An inquiring mind would like to know?

You gotta ask them what are young rather than those of us who have already acquired our disabilities.

It's a day by day thing so far. Most days I can rack the Shields with relative ease. Then there are the days when that just ain't gonna happen. And rack the slide on my Savage 1907?

It's not just racking slides.

I was watching some Little League games last season and those ten to twelve year old kids regularly took falls and dives and got back up like nothing happened. I take a fall on carpet and I don't just get back up without at least taking inventory and running a series of function tests.

And then pretty much that same routine first thing when I wake up for the next few days.

There's a reason so many manufacturers of all kinds of products are building things that require less strength and dexterity.

My sister and brother-in-law are in pretty good shape, active and shes over a decade younger than me. She was a professional photographer constantly lugging sets and equipment and decades of working with little kids, lifting them up onto stands for pictures and even did school pictures for her church school. Those days she'd probably lift almost a hundred squirming 50-60 pound uncooperative kids a day then get them to pose the way mommy wants them to look rather than as the actually look. But she simply can't physically do that anymore.

And there are more and more of us every day.

 

[Columbo]

So does old age really have that big of a significance on racking slides and charging firearms in order to carry?

Is there something us aging CCW carriers can do to either prevent or slow down the inevitable of not being able to function the manual of arms with the pistols we already have, instead of having to find something else that we still can?

Is keeping one’s arms and grip strength with weight resistance training and drinking protein supplements to help keep muscle mass with our aging body’s a viable plan or option?

An inquiring mind would like to know?

I cannot speak for the other gentlemen. But for me, it's the fingers. The fingers, most of all.

While lifestyle can alter the trajectory, much of things are ultimately a matter of genetics. Arthritis is in mine. It is all through me at this point. Advil and Aleve are my best friends on the very worst days. My father's fingers were a tangled mess of agony in his last years. While I don't think it will get that bad, they ache most days, and especially so on wet and/or cold days. It absolutely affects grip strength and manual dexterity.

I weight trained heavily as a young man. While smaller today, I am not a tiny man. Again, genetics. I eat less most days than the petite Mrs. C. I may still be able to match my muscular son on a heavy task, but at the high risk of injuring something if I don't use all the leverage tricks and finesse of long experience. Those injuries now sometimes take months to heal. And I will always pay very dearly for it that night, and often the next couple days thereafter. So what's attached to my fingers remains active and capable, if more fragile.

But it all involves the hands and fingers (and to some extent the wrists) when you get down to more serious business. I can still rack my pistols. I increasingly use magazine loading aids, which I never used years ago. If you've ever suffered through a round of finger and hand cramps, you'll understand why.

The adage use it or lose it still applies. Age just demands more when you use it.

 

[jkingrph]

Way way back, before we had legal concealed carry I was into bigger guns, the S&W K series, Colt 1911 and Browning HP. After I got my concealed carry license about 30 years ago, I have been going small, first trying a S&W 342ti, and it was just too light, recoil with standard 38 special was brutal, but I carried it until my wife kept seeing it in my pocket when wearing dockers. Next was a Sig P938 which is great for pocket carry and a few years after that I got a Sig P365, and after a while got the parts and upgraded it to xl, for a little more barrel and larger capacity, and carry it inside the waistband, tucked. No one has spotted it and it is just about perfect. With a straight trigger and some spring replaement the trigger is as good as most of my single action semi autos.

 

[Rob72]

So does old age really have that big of a significance on racking slides and charging firearms in order to carry?

Is there something us aging CCW carriers can do to either prevent or slow down the inevitable of not being able to function the manual of arms with the pistols we already have, instead of having to find something else that we still can?

Is keeping one’s arms and grip strength with weight resistance training and drinking protein supplements to help keep muscle mass with our aging body’s a viable plan or option?

An inquiring mind would like to know?

Genetics is, unfortunately, huge. Basic strengthening exercise, but more importantly, flexibility, whether basic stretching or something more evolved like yoga. Both of these are lost fairly quickly over the age of 70, e.g., a bad bout of the flu putting someone down for a week will have a substantial impact on strength and endurance and it is very hard to regain.

My OMG, although I still have a few years before the deadline, is a 21A, with some alterations and additions to address the issues previously noted. I have a Twisted .22LR conversion, for an LC-9 I inherited, that is a viable candidate as well. Granted, that may change.

Primary criteria: reliable, light racking or no racking slide, easily reloaded, double-strike capability, minimal trigger-effort required.

 

[Ad Astra]

As a data point - and FWIW - the SA-35 is the lightest-recoiling 9mm I've ever shot - literally, just like shooting a 22 auto.

So a steel frame pistol - if you can lift it - contributes a great deal to reducing jump etc. I had the thought, it was an old man's gun. Someday.

AA

 

[jar_]

As a data point - and FWIW - the SA-35 is the lightest-recoiling 9mm I've ever shot - literally, just like shooting a 22 auto.

So a steel frame pistol - if you can lift it - contributes a great deal to reducing jump etc. I had the thought, it was an old man's gun. Someday.

AA

True, but still really heavy and hard to rack, particularly during failure drills.

 

[Bhugo]

My dad(77 years old) has nerve issues from his spine that affects his wrist and hand strength. He still farms, potatoes, for fun, believe it, or not, and throws around 100 pound bags constantly. He has no problem with arm or back strength. He has trouble lighting a lighter with his hands though. He has given up on carrying any pistols whatsoever. He just has no strength in his hands and is afraid what might happen if he fumbles. He is still a crack shot with his Wingmaster though, lol.

We went through the same process with him over the last decade. He has a few relatively unused semi auto pistols of various makes. He gave up on them. He liked the 642 for a while. It is a little snappy, and believe it or not, he went with a rough rider in 22 mag. I can’t remember which model he has but it’s a little short pistol with a rounded off handle. He liked it while traveling but has since stopped carrying altogether.