Wanting to try a Carbon Kitchen Knife

[Legion]

@cotedupy Any UK stones recommended as a finisher would be much appreciated. I thought of going down the Jnat rd but thought I’d try something else.

I have an Idwall I keep near the kitchen that I really like for finishing knives or touch ups.

Though my favourite at the moment is a little chunk of mystery novaculite that was picked up by @cotedupy near Penrhyn(?) in Wales. I've never seen a stone that looks quite like it once lapped, and it has the magical ability to improve just about every knife edge I put on it. It's remarkable.

 

[Bowmaker]

I have an Idwall I keep near the kitchen that I really like for finishing knives or touch ups.

Though my favourite at the moment is a little chunk of mystery novaculite that was picked up by @cotedupy near Penrhyn(?) in Wales. I've never seen a stone that looks quite like it once lapped, and it has the magical ability to improve just about every knife edge I put on it. It's remarkable.

I also have an Idwall that I really like for knifes. It's not a slow stone, to coarse to finish a razor.

 

[Legion]

I also have an Idwall that I really like for knifes. It's not a slow stone, to coarse to finish a razor.

I actually can't remember if I ever tried my kitchen knife one on a razor, now I think about it. I tried it with knives first, really liked it, so it just stayed with all the knife gear.

 

[Gamma]

My Chicago Cutlery chefs knife and pairing knife are fantastic,

I have 3 CC knives, one is an 8" Chef Knife - no bolster/guard, it's excellent.
Sharpens easy. Holds edges very well. I have nicer knives in the kitchen but I use that one a lot.

And contrary to what the KFF wizards have to say, when sharpening it the burr comes up easy and removes easy and the work is quick and the edge is fine.

Some stainless is miserable on the stones, sure. Some Carbon Steel is pretty sketchy also.

@ebonysw45

I've had more than a couple softer/coarser Charns and Idwals that served well in the kitchen also.
The kitchen is where slate stones do well enough for me, Dragon's Tongue for example.
BBW....Coticules...all good

If I need to do any heavy lifting, I might grab a Binsui or an Amakusa; but more often than not I'll grab a 200-600x synth.

A lotta Jnats do very well when sharpening general purpose double bevel kitchen knives.
The speed thing is irrelevant. Sometimes slower is better. Depends on factors not seen right here right now.
I use a Binsui often in the kitchen. Not for everything but it sees action often enough with both western and Japanese knives too.
If all I had was that Binsui I'd be ok I think.

 

[ebonysw45]

Thanks for the recommendations. I will keep my eyes open for a larger specimen.

 

[cotedupy]

I have an Idwall I keep near the kitchen that I really like for finishing knives or touch ups.

Though my favourite at the moment is a little chunk of mystery novaculite that was picked up by @cotedupy near Penrhyn(?) in Wales. I've never seen a stone that looks quite like it once lapped, and it has the magical ability to improve just about every knife edge I put on it. It's remarkable.

Ah yeah, fair point. Certain Idwals and Charnleys could probably be included.

Glad you like the stone! That's a Penrhiw Hone, basically a type of Idwal from a quarry SW of Snowdon. (Penrhyn in slate quarry north of Snowdon.)

 

[Legion]

Ah yeah, fair point. Certain Idwals and Charnleys could probably be included.

Glad you like the stone! That's a Penrhiw Hone, basically a type of Idwal from a quarry SW of Snowdon. (Penrhyn in slate quarry north of Snowdon.)

My mistake, I can't keep track of all that Welsh.

Dude, go back with a wheel barrow and try to find all the ones that look like the one you sent to me. It was a bit of a pest to get clear of bad inclusions, but it works so well it is well worth it.

Tried it with all sorts of knives and it is a winner.

 

[cotedupy]

Dude, go back with a wheel barrow and try to find all the ones that look like the one you sent to me. It was a bit of a pest to get clear of bad inclusions, but it works so well it is well worth it.

Tried it with all sorts of knives and it is a winner.

Yeah I've been really impressed with them, I wasn't just saying it cos it was such a ballache to try to find the quarry. It's a first rate whetstone, right up there with the best Grecians I've had, maybe even better.

(Also - probably wouldn't have bothered sending it if I wasn't fairly confident you'd like. And I know you have good taste!)

 

[Legion]

Yeah I've been really impressed with them, I wasn't just saying it cos it was such a ballache to try to find the quarry. It's a first rate whetstone, right up there with the best Grecians I've had, maybe even better.

(Also - probably wouldn't have bothered sending it if I wasn't fairly confident you'd like. And I know you have good taste!)

I appreciate your efforts, and after so much lapping I would have been very cross if it was a dud.

I liked it so much I carved it a little wooden stand.

 

[Gamma]

"I don't think anyone could reasonably argue with this statement."

Disagreeing based on personal experience over more decades than I care to count is absolutely reasonable.

What I've experienced is something else, and my experiences are certainly not unique.

I have owned, used and sharpened SS that would burr easily, deburr easily, and get very sharp just as easily as carbon steel.
There has been some difficulty with some SS but it wasn't burr related.

 

[Empire straights]

I have an Idwall I keep near the kitchen that I really like for finishing knives or touch ups.

Though my favourite at the moment is a little chunk of mystery novaculite that was picked up by @cotedupy near Penrhyn(?) in Wales. I've never seen a stone that looks quite like it once lapped, and it has the magical ability to improve just about every knife edge I put on it. It's remarkable.

Can I have a picture, please good sir?

 

[Empire straights]

I also have an Idwall that I really like for knifes. It's not a slow stone, to coarse to finish a razor.

I got one of those cream and green swirly ones like @cotedupy (thought I'd bought it from him at first) that's coarse(about 1k-3k I'd guess but I only use naturals so I'm not a great judge) and it leave an insanely toothy edge on knobs that are very very aggressive by still fine enough to do quarter butchering with, without using pressure at all. Very good stones. I'll never sell mine and I'll haunt my kids if they do.

 

[Legion]

Can I have a picture, please good sir?

This is the Idwal in question. Maybe a Grecian? Not sure.

 

[JPO]

I'm looking for suggestions on a carbon kitchen knife. Nothing fancy just something half decent to try it out. Second hand would be ok too.

After my experience with straight razors, I've lost my fear of carbon steel. I'd like to see if I'm able to put a better edge on a high carbon knife. I also suspect that these knives will respond better to my natural knife finishers. The trouble is that everything in the shops seems to be stainless these days. Western style is prefered but I'm happy to try a Japanese style if someone can explain how to hone the asymmetrical edge.

I would also like to try a carbon kitchen knife at some stage. However, after getting to know the cheap stainless steel i do have well, i do find it works really well on most natural stones.
If i just avoid the temptation to create a big burr i usually don't have any issues removing it on stainless steel, or carbon steel.
I have never understood the need to create a big burr. By the time you have removed it, after flipping it several times you have introduced too much edge fatigue. If you overworked the steel it really does not matter if you have the best steel in the world.
Different synthetic stones also creates different burr's. So, having stones that work well with a certain type of steel is also important.

It is easier for me to sharpen my knifes frequently then it is to teach my family members how to threat a knife. The carbon steel knifes i have also have a tendency to chip easier. That is really not something i like to deal with. It is much easier to fix a rolled edge then to take out chips.

 

[cotedupy]

This is the Idwal in question. Maybe a Grecian? Not sure.

View attachment 1716474

Mmm... yep, I'd say that does look very Grecian-like to me. Doesn't surprise me at all that's a good knife stone.

I appreciate your efforts, and after so much lapping I would have been very cross if it was a dud.

I liked it so much I carved it a little wooden stand.

View attachment 1715576

Well that's feckin AWESOME isn't it!

Superb stuff.

 

[frbock]

Back when I was shorter than a fence, It was carbon, or stainless. Carbon could be sharpened easily, needed extra care, and stainless was bulletproof and miserable to get a good edge on.
At some point, high carbon stainless got developed.
Probably not as ultimately sharp as an old carbon steel. On the other hand they don't rust, and most modern versions will sharpen at 15 degree instead of 20, and keep the edge.

 

[frbock]

Going back in history, carbon steel took an edge well, and stainless was damn near impossible to get a good edge on.
At some point, high carbon stainless started showing up. The edge didn't rust like carbon, it took an edge unlike stainless.
A couple years ago, America's Test kitchen ran a Kramer Carbon knife against a Victorinox Fibrox.
They were closely matched. The Carbon knife got the edge when cutting on glass cutting boards.
I don't use them because blades tend to slide.. and accidents occur.
I like the stamped blades because they are light and nimble...which works to my skills. Forged blades have more mass, and I found it slowed me down.

 

[helicopter]

Going back in history, carbon steel took an edge well, and stainless was damn near impossible to get a good edge on.
At some point, high carbon stainless started showing up. The edge didn't rust like carbon, it took an edge unlike stainless.
A couple years ago, America's Test kitchen ran a Kramer Carbon knife against a Victorinox Fibrox.
They were closely matched. The Carbon knife got the edge when cutting on glass cutting boards.
I don't use them because blades tend to slide.. and accidents occur.
I like the stamped blades because they are light and nimble...which works to my skills. Forged blades have more mass, and I found it slowed me down.

A Zwilling knife that is a licensed Kramer design. More of an official replica, as it is a factory knife.

 

[psfred]

There is a lot of variation in knife steels, especially stainless, and several philosophies on usage. Japanese knives tend to be specialized for a task, and carbon or stainless, have very hard edge steels usually backed with non-hardening steels or plain iron. There are plenty of mono-steel Japanese knives, but they much less common and harder to maintain. Usage expectation is for very acute, sharp edges for fish and vegetables, while less acute edges are used for other things.

European style knives have long tended to softer steel that can be "wiped back up" into an edge, or even actually sharpened with a serrated knife steel (which is somewhat harder than the knife itself). Durability takes precedence over actual sharpness, and CroMoVa steels typical in European knives have coarse carbides, giving them great edge holding ability but since the base steel is softer, less acute edge cabability. The edge fails by bending, and can be "stood back up" with a smooth steel easily for a long time. They cannot be honed to a super fine acute edge, as the carbides get ripped out leaving a swiss cheese edge of softer steel that fails very quickly.

So it's really a matter of how you want the knives to work and how you want to maintain them. Modern stainless steels can be as good as carbon steel (VG1, VG10, various Udeholm razor steels) in terms of edge acuity and ability to hone to a very fine edge, but that means they are brittle and prone to chipping if handled like CroMoVa steel knives. European knives can be terribly abused without chipping, and while they won't be anywhere near as classically sharp as Japanese stainless knives, they can be held at a usable level of sharpness far longer. They also tolerate rotating the edge on a cutting board, being dropped, being tossed into a knife drawer unprotected, and so forth.

Lots of personal preference there. I have a variety of knives of various ages and styles and steels, and I like all of them. The 440 stainless knives need sharpening a lot more, and I need to use the steel all the time on them, the Japanese knives get sharpened once a year or so and excel at slicing because they are much more rigid. I have some carbon steel butchering knives my Dad bought, and they work fine, just need sharpening more often than hard stainless.

I've never had a problem with burr removal, but I tend to sharpen in a way than minimizes burr formation on the principle that breaking off a burr is an invitation to a ragged edge, not a clean apex. I prefer to abrade them off during sharpening rather than raise a big burr to tell me when I'm at the apex.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Going off of @Gamma's mention of CC...


Chicago cutlery are along with several other brands... what I always think of as rental knives. (Though I'm sure they have OTHER knives/home lines/nice looking and different types of steel... I always picture them as those basic colored impact plastic handled chefs knives that start like 4" deep so they hold up to decades of grinding, and that's what I'm talking about.)

Designed to be very easy to sharpen, hold an edge well enough to go 1-2 weeks of heavy use (with steeling) until they swap them out for sharpened ones.

They're some of the easiest knives to own, appropriately affordable (Used to sell in restaurant supplies in chinatowns around the country for under $5 each), and can do everything a home cook needs. These sort of knives are what 99.99% of professional cooks are using daily. Every day Tens of Thousands of these (and almost identical but other brands) knives are slapped for a few seconds on a grinding wheel then a charged felt wheel and put right back into service of all the folks cooking for you every time you go out. There's a whole industry built around renting and sharpening these knives. They go in dishwashers and no one cares. Dropped on a tile or stone floor? Who cares? Prolly dinged the tip a tiny bit if anything. There'll be a new rental here in a few days... grab one of the other 8 off the wall and get back to work.

The drawback? They don't impress anyone.


I could hand someone a low quality fake damascus knife with an ok edge and a maxxed out CC knife that's substantially sharper...


99% of people are gonna tell me the damascus is a light saber and might say the CC is sharper than they expected.

People want to be impressed.

If you're having trouble visualizing the knives I mean... this is an example under the "Choice" brand. But I've seen plenty of Chicago Cutleries and a dozen other names slapped on these. Dexter Russel was a big one. SOMETIMES they come in a nicer looking 3 rivet wood or black handle, but usually it's this dipped and glued plastic thing.

Choice 10" Chef Knife with White Handle

Provide your staff with a versatile, highly efficient knife like this Choice 10" chef knife! Thanks to a professional-grade, high carbon 420 stainless steel blade, this 10" chef knife serves as the perfect all-around kitchen utensil. Hand-honed edges are designed for maximum cutting performance...

www.webstaurantstore.com

That's not to dissuade anyone from getting spendy on a REALLY nice knife, especially if it's handmade and supporting an artisan making something that you'll treasure. I own several high end knives.

But never think you NEED an expensive knife. These aren't a tool where there aren't good, functional, well-designed cheap options.