My strange progression on learning to sharpen kitchen knives

[NachoMamma]

I used to use the trash electric wheel on can openers. Then I got fancy and got one with just wheels, and no can opener. It worked ok on the trash stamped knives I had back then. I got my wife here from Philippines, and she was a real cook. So I upgraded to a Sam's Club Wolfgang Puck block set, and life was for a few years. I never did get good at sharpening though. So, my first foray into "pro" sharpening was a Harbor Freight 1" sanders with all manner of belt grits including leather. Also white and green polish. It went ok, but took too long. It didn't have a good angle guide, and I still sucked. Note. By this time I was also trying to sharpen a lot of fishing fillet knives. So lets toss more money at the problem right? I went out and bought a Ken Onion Work Sharp with all manner of belts. It worked great for me on smaller blades like a fillet knife, but I still had to work way too long, and wasn't getting the edge others were getting on their YouTube videos. About this time my wife says she wants a new set of "GOOD" kitchen knives. I ran out and bought her 4 Japanese Tojiro knives, and lucked out and found a brand new 8" Global at a pawn shop for $10. I also bought a handful of Mercer Millennia Colors and Victorinox Fibrox, and a 12" $25 Cook's brand ceramic sharpening rod from Walmart.

Well, the Tojiro knives were so fancy neither of us ever use them. The Mercer and Victorinox were fantastic, and best of all I could get them to push cut paper against the grain easily with the stupid ceramic rod. Now my Work Sharp and belt sander both just gather dust. I hit a blade with a few light swipes of the sharpening rod when it starts to seem a bit less sharp, and it's back to being like new. It's been a couple of years and I don't see any real wear on any of the blades yet. I still don't raise a burr or any of the real ways you are supposed to sharpen a knife. But I finally have something that works fine for us.

 

[jj_sharp]

Edited...

I still don't raise a burr or any of the real ways you are supposed to sharpen a knife. But I finally have something that works fine for us.

I intentionally try to avoid burr formation as I would then have to remove the burr. Burr formation may be the easiest way to get a new sharpening person to get good results.

What kind of ceramic rod are you using? How often are you using the rod?

 

[*stefan*]

Cutting food with dull knife

Burr removal

Daily Knife Edge Maintenance With Strop

Personally when sharpening I try end with very light alternating strokes but also include the "stropping" on stone after
the alternating strikes on the higher grit stones.

Whatever works with sharpening & cutting is a winner.

 

[cotedupy]

Burr formation is absolutely 100% necessary when sharpening any kind of edged instrument made from steel. Whether or not you personally can feel very small burrs is a matter of experience. But if you try sharpen something without raising burrs at all then you simply won't apex it.

Side note 1 - Double bevel Tojiro knives often have heavily asymmetric grinds. Google: '70:30 Sharpening'.

Side note 2 - If what you're doing already is working well for you, then don't overthink it. Ignore strangers like me on the internet telling you to try something else!

 

[Legion]

Burr formation is absolutely 100% necessary when sharpening any kind of edged instrument made from steel. Whether or not you personally can feel very small burrs is a matter of experience. But if you try sharpen something without raising burrs at all then you simply won't apex it.

Not sure I 100% agree with that. Before I got into freehand knife sharpening, all my knives were sharpened on the Spyderco Sharpmaker system. Now the method for that, as per the instructional video, is to do alternating, edge leading strokes from start to finish, with increasingly finer stones.

So... I would think, since the strokes are alternating 1:1 the whole time, no burr would form? Or am I wrong there somehow? The edges off that thing are pretty good too. Especially for pocket knives.

 

[BanjoCowboyMartaTobes]

I have thrown a lot of money on many of the new and “improved” sharpeners. After finally dedicating a bunch of sessions on the fancy sharpening steel which totally failed, I ended up with a Smiths $8 little ceramic that does a great enough job. 30 passes, once a month and we can slice tomatoes like no business.

Also if I learn to sharpen like grandpa then next I’ll have a bunch of straight razors lol. Yeah, can’t have that. Great luck gents!

 

[cotedupy]

Not sure I 100% agree with that. Before I got into freehand knife sharpening, all my knives were sharpened on the Spyderco Sharpmaker system. Now the method for that, as per the instructional video, is to do alternating, edge leading strokes from start to finish, with increasingly finer stones.

So... I would think, since the strokes are alternating 1:1 the whole time, no burr would form? Or am I wrong there somehow? The edges off that thing are pretty good too. Especially for pocket knives.

Err... yeah, it does *kinda* depend on exactly how and where you define what a 'burr' is.

That method - alternating edge leading stokes - is exactly how I finish quality knives/steels when I'm sharpening freehand. But when your edge is apexed then any stroke at the correct angle will form a burr (however small it is). What you're doing is whittling down the fatigued steel to a stage where you would no longer call it a 'burr', and that depends on what you're using your blade for. If you tried to use a SR like a kitchen knife on a chopping board - then the edge would crumble and you'd say it had a 'burr' or 'wire edge'. When you use it for shaving - then it doesn't.

If you don't apex an edge then you won't form a burr (however small it is). And you won't whittle it down. And you won't make your blade any sharper than it was before.

To sharpen something you have to apex it, and to apex something you have to form burrs. It's inescapable.

 

[psfred]

Get a 1000 grit stone of some sort (for the Tojiro knives, a Japanese waterstone) and a 6k waterstone. Also something to flatten them with, can be as simple as wet/dry silicon carbide paper and a marble tile.

I use a Bester 1200 since it's a bit finer and wears slowly, and a King 6k. Not everyone likes the King, but I find it works well on knives and plane blades or chisels for me.

Learn to hold the angle while sharpening, for Japanese style knives two nickels under the spine is about the right angle, maybe a bit more. There are slip-on guides that work well.

The Tojiro's are great knives, lose that super sharp edge pretty fast, but the remaining sharpness lasts a long time -- I hone mine once or twice a year but I don't use them every day. DO NOT use the ceramic rods on them, you are very likely to knock chips out of the edge, assuming they are the DP line, which I recommend.

I think you will like the edges from stone better once you figure them out, but except for the Tojiro knives, those ceramic rods work pretty well. Sharp knives are a good thing!

Belt sanders should never be used on quality knives. Beater German "chef's knives" maybe, but anything with high hardness steel will suffer badly!

 

[Legion]

Err... yeah, it does *kinda* depend on exactly how and where you define what a 'burr' is.

That method - alternating edge leading stokes - is exactly how I finish quality knives/steels when I'm sharpening freehand. But when your edge is apexed then any stroke at the correct angle will form a burr (however small it is). What you're doing is whittling down the fatigued steel to a stage where you would no longer call it a 'burr', and that depends on what you're using your blade for. If you tried to use a SR like a kitchen knife on a chopping board - then the edge would crumble and you'd say it had a 'burr' or 'wire edge'. When you use it for shaving - then it doesn't.

If you don't apex an edge then you won't form a burr (however small it is). And you won't whittle it down. And you won't make your blade any sharper than it was before.

To sharpen something you have to apex it, and to apex something you have to form burrs. It's inescapable.

Ok. So I think it is a matter of terminology? When you say burr you mean apex, perhaps with a microscopic lean to one side or another, which will happen even with alternating strokes. Where as I am thinking of a wire edge that sticks out beyond the apex, and has been drawn out by repeated work on one side, then the other, and needs to be broken away.

 

[cotedupy]

Ok. So I think it is a matter of terminology? When you say burr you mean apex, perhaps with a microscopic lean to one side or another, which will happen even with alternating strokes. Where as I am thinking of a wire edge that sticks out beyond the apex, and has been drawn out by repeated work on one side, then the other, and needs to be broken away.

Yep, exactly.

Tbh - I probably use the term ‘burr’ on things that are smaller and less noticeable than a lot of people would, because I’m quite highly attenuated to it. Every stage of how I sharpen involves near-constant checking of the edge with my fingers or thumbnail.

(But even so - you can’t apex/sharpen something without raising some kind of burr at least once. It’d be physically impossible).

 

[DrStrange]

Not sure I 100% agree with that. Before I got into freehand knife sharpening, all my knives were sharpened on the Spyderco Sharpmaker system. Now the method for that, as per the instructional video, is to do alternating, edge leading strokes from start to finish, with increasingly finer stones.

So... I would think, since the strokes are alternating 1:1 the whole time, no burr would form? Or am I wrong there somehow? The edges off that thing are pretty good too. Especially for pocket knives.

I recall a YouTube of a Spyderco guy demonstrating HHT5 with his pocket knife.

I felt jealous.

 

[Herrenberg]

I recall a YouTube of a Spyderco guy demonstrating HHT5 with his pocket knife.

I felt jealous.

What gets me are the ones who whittle hair; that is, they draw the edge down the side of the hair and take off a slice.

 

[psfred]

Well, sharp is after all sharp! You can put a pretty good edge on a kitchen knife using a concrete sidewalk if you know what you are doing. Might take a while though.

As far as raising a burr goes, very hard steel does not deflect much and will not bend easily, so getting the sort of burr one normally gets on much softer knife steel isn't going to happen, it will fracture instead.

Micro-cracks on the apex are the reason I don't recommend diamond stones for razors, same thing goes for raising a burr you can feel. In either case you will have either sharp bottom scratches that result in stress concentrations, or actual cracks, or you have steel fracturing at the apex which won't leave you a clean edge until you abrade it off with finer grit stones or much less pressure.

Plain leading edge laps, font side down the stone and back side up will prevent the formation of a large burr. On a 1k or so stone any burr from straight or x-strokes on alternating sides will be very minimal and you should stop honing on a 1k as soon as you get a clean apex.

Everything after establishing a flat bevel and a clean apex is refinement. All you are really doing with finer stones is removing scratches and reducing the "sawtooth" character of the apex by removing the deeper scratches. It's possible to fix an inadequately formed apex on finer stones, but it will take a very long time, and one goof-up will set you far back!

 

[cotedupy]

I recall a YouTube of a Spyderco guy demonstrating HHT5 with his pocket knife.

I felt jealous.

This probably HHT4 on a kitchen knife, coming straight off a Crystolon stone, ie about 300 grit. And if I'd stropped - it'd be HHT5.

There are sharpening techniques/tricks for doing this kind of thing tbh. Takes a bit of practice, but it's not as impressive or difficult as one might imagine!

 

[2bit_collie]

Well, sharp is after all sharp! You can put a pretty good edge on a kitchen knife using a concrete sidewalk if you know what you are doing. Might take a while though.

As far as raising a burr goes, very hard steel does not deflect much and will not bend easily, so getting the sort of burr one normally gets on much softer knife steel isn't going to happen, it will fracture instead.

Micro-cracks on the apex are the reason I don't recommend diamond stones for razors, same thing goes for raising a burr you can feel. In either case you will have either sharp bottom scratches that result in stress concentrations, or actual cracks, or you have steel fracturing at the apex which won't leave you a clean edge until you abrade it off with finer grit stones or much less pressure.

Plain leading edge laps, font side down the stone and back side up will prevent the formation of a large burr. On a 1k or so stone any burr from straight or x-strokes on alternating sides will be very minimal and you should stop honing on a 1k as soon as you get a clean apex.

Everything after establishing a flat bevel and a clean apex is refinement. All you are really doing with finer stones is removing scratches and reducing the "sawtooth" character of the apex by removing the deeper scratches. It's possible to fix an inadequately formed apex on finer stones, but it will take a very long time, and one goof-up will set you far back!

If there is one lesson I’ve taken to heart from both knife and razor sharpening, it is “Don’t move to a finer stone until everything is good with the bevel setter.” Get the apex set, get the chips removed, THEN move on. Otherwise you will spend an eternity on the finer stone fixing stuff that should have been put right on the previous stone.

 

[Ron R]

I sharpen my own knifes and these few tool methods work well for my self. I learned that a surgeon scalpel is the sharpest and strongest edge to put on a knife edge that is possible. If the edge is thin it will bend and break so I use a 3 facet edge(scalpel edge) works well for myself.
I also like to use ceramic round bars & diamond coated flat stones work well on most hardened knife edges, regular stones will work also but are messy to clean up IMO.
Even with a perfect stoned edge the blade will dull after a few uses because the rest of the family members cut their meats & vegetables on ceramic plates, because ceramic is harder than most steel edges so it will dull knife edges, so I just give them a touch up with a ceramic round steel or a 1000 grit diamond flat plate to rejuvenate the edge back quickly(free hand them).
Easy method to clean Ceramic and diamond flat stones is just use a common school eraser and it will clean them well enough.

(Some old archived photo's of inexpensive knife sharpening tools that get the job done quickly and will cut thin receipt paper easily.)
These are my main simple sharpeners that work well enough.(click pictures to enlarge)!
(Modified Lansky sharpener simple system. Good system for small and large knifes for quick touch ups.)

(Below photo, Ruixin pro sharpener , takes a progression of different diamond flat stones >Approx #240, 400, 600 & 1000 grit for beautiful edges.) Knife below is my Victorinox chiefs knife putting on final 40 degree included angle with a few swipes.

(Below illustration, Scalpel edges from the different tools used!> approximately 400- 500X magnification with my hoppy USB microscope)Method I use would be start to sharpen at 15 degrees angle for a (30 degree included angle) and then finish with 20 degree angle for a (40 degree included angle for a few swipes of the stone is all that is needed for a very sharp edge.)

Ruixin pro edge below using Diamond flat bars...400- 500 magnifications....... Lansky edge using round ceramic stones.

These edges cut thin paper easily and care should be taken when using these knifes of course. People who use dull knifes a lot might find them to sharp when first using them but they learn quickly hopefully to learn proper knife handling etiquette!
Enjoy some fine sharp knife edges!