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@cotedupy sent me a King 1000 in a stone PIF. That should be close enough to the King 800. I may have found a use for those Coticules after all.
Wanting to try a Carbon Kitchen Knife
- Thread starter Tomo
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I like Kamo knives. I have a Nakiri and Santoku in AS and am pretty happy with them.
+1. Opinel carbones are great to learn on. Carbon steel deburrs easier and, all else equal, tends to abrade easier on sharpening stones than stainless. They're also made from thin stock, so you don't have to remove as much material to apex. On top of that, they have a pronounced belly to practice on and a sharp point to practice not rounding off. They're nearly perfect practice blades. And they're cool knives to boot.
I have a bunch of Carbon Steel cutlery. Some stainless too. Someone mentioned Chicago Cutlery earlier in the thread, which is the keyword that got me here actually, which is stainless but it's stainless that rusts. They sharpen easy, hold an edge well enough, and they tune up very easily too.
There are a few vintage Thiers, and some Japanese blades too.
As for a bargain synth and a BBW doing most of what Jnats can do, maybe if the user doesn't know how to use Jnats, or doesn't want to go for a high polish edge, or they're sharpening Farberware knives - ok.
I do keep a BBW in the kitchen, fwiw. But it is what it is and to be honest most of the time I'd rather use a mid-range synth.
Usually, for me, I go for mostly utilitarian edges. My Nakiri gets done on synths and not so high up the ladder. Same for the Deba. The Usuba and Kodeba get done on Jnats most of the time - the Kodeba gets used often so i might just run it on a synth for a tune up now and then. They're all different steels tho, blue, blue super, white. I have a white steel Higo that sharpens reallly easily and keeps the edge well. Had a blue steel one that would take effort to sharpen, I don't think it ever really got dull.
Thing is, there are way too many generalizations made about Carbon Steel, and carbon vs SS I think. Yes, a lot of carbon steel is thinner but not all of it, some of it is harder than I'd imagine and getting the edge 'there' can also be harder than imagined. The almost generic kitchen stuff make in the US was a dream to sharpen usually, so easy, stayed sharp unless the edge killing gnome decided to open a box of frozen chicken nuggets with it. But a good carbon blade is good and a good SS blade is good. There are not so very good blades made from both too. My favorite blade in the kitchen is SS, 80s Henckels 9" Chef Knife. The knife I use the most is also SS. The Usuba is so ridiculously sharp though; it have to laugh when I cut stuff with it.
I don't sweat patina or whatever, I just wipe dry and leave out to dry. I will put some mineral oil on them sometimes. The Japanese pieces are all Kuro Uchi so they have a bit of scale to keep the oxidation to a minimum. I prefer that style over all, it's easy for me to just use it and not think about a mirror polish getting cloudy.
There are a few vintage Thiers, and some Japanese blades too.
As for a bargain synth and a BBW doing most of what Jnats can do, maybe if the user doesn't know how to use Jnats, or doesn't want to go for a high polish edge, or they're sharpening Farberware knives - ok.
I do keep a BBW in the kitchen, fwiw. But it is what it is and to be honest most of the time I'd rather use a mid-range synth.
Usually, for me, I go for mostly utilitarian edges. My Nakiri gets done on synths and not so high up the ladder. Same for the Deba. The Usuba and Kodeba get done on Jnats most of the time - the Kodeba gets used often so i might just run it on a synth for a tune up now and then. They're all different steels tho, blue, blue super, white. I have a white steel Higo that sharpens reallly easily and keeps the edge well. Had a blue steel one that would take effort to sharpen, I don't think it ever really got dull.
Thing is, there are way too many generalizations made about Carbon Steel, and carbon vs SS I think. Yes, a lot of carbon steel is thinner but not all of it, some of it is harder than I'd imagine and getting the edge 'there' can also be harder than imagined. The almost generic kitchen stuff make in the US was a dream to sharpen usually, so easy, stayed sharp unless the edge killing gnome decided to open a box of frozen chicken nuggets with it. But a good carbon blade is good and a good SS blade is good. There are not so very good blades made from both too. My favorite blade in the kitchen is SS, 80s Henckels 9" Chef Knife. The knife I use the most is also SS. The Usuba is so ridiculously sharp though; it have to laugh when I cut stuff with it.
I don't sweat patina or whatever, I just wipe dry and leave out to dry. I will put some mineral oil on them sometimes. The Japanese pieces are all Kuro Uchi so they have a bit of scale to keep the oxidation to a minimum. I prefer that style over all, it's easy for me to just use it and not think about a mirror polish getting cloudy.
The main advantage of carbon-steel knives to me is the ease at which you can get them stupid sharp. All else equal, stainless is more difficult to deburr than carbon and therefore more difficult to get stupid sharp. Like many others, I actually like the patina on carbon steel and don't do anything to inhibit it.
If you're a sharpening geek like me, and get an unexplainable kick out of seeing your kitchen knife whittle hair — right before your spouse uses it to open that box of frozen nuggets — then carbon is usually far easier to do that with. Stainless — especially cheap stainless — can take a frustratingly long time to get to the same point, and it's all about that getting that burr off.
That said, I have only a few carbon-steel kitchen knives. Kitchens have water. Water rusts carbon steel easily. Good stainless resists rust much better than carbon does, and if you have to have it hair-whittling sharp, you can get it there, too, it just takes more patience.
And as sexy as the Hitachi's whites and blues are — and they are super sexy — there are some great stainless steels out there too. SG2, for one. That's one that I'd recommend to anyone who thinks they might not wipe off their knife before putting it down, or forget to wash it and carefully dry completely before storing it. I find myself not using my carbon kitchen knives out of fear that I'll forget to clean them up right away... or resent the fact that I have to clean it up when I'd rather wait till after I've eaten.
I never have any difficulty taking a burr off stainless; Zip, Zam, it's gone. Definitely not always harder to do than it is with Carbon steel blades. For me, it's the same process, and same effort, but the steels have to be somewhat comparable. Comparing a common utility knife from the 1930s to a modern sintered steel skinner is not a sensible scenario.
If I pull up too much burr, SS or CS, might take more an extra erg or two of effort to remove - but that's me, not the material.
Some steels are harder than others, or more wear resistant, so very hard SS takes more effort than a softer Carbon and yes the burr will be more resilient, naturally. I have worked with some CS that was ridiculously hard to sharpen.
But, when things are about equal, they're about equal.
I wouldn't call myself a geek of any sort actually, but I've sharpened more than a few things along the way to today.
I can sharpen comparable SS / Carbon blades to hair whittling degrees equally easily when the alloys are comparable.
There is no point to comparing a S30V EDC to a 1940s CS Thiers slicer - Yes, the Crucible steel is a bear to work and the Thiers will sharpen faster. The S30V will be sharper, though, usually.
But on my bench comparable steels are comparable in the work needed to get the edge there. This is why I don't like or use the common generalizations. A lot of people try to compare modern stainless steels to less complex CS alloys and sure there's a difference in work needed to get done because of the obvious differences in the materials. But I own stainless that sharpens fast and gets just as sharp just as fast as some CS.
Anyway, to me steel is just steel and none of it is particularly 'sexy'. Tamagahane might get close to that but only because of the process involved. The steel itself is still just steel. It's all just steel to me. Carbon, Stainless, etc... whatever.
But what a smith does with the steel, that's another story.
If I pull up too much burr, SS or CS, might take more an extra erg or two of effort to remove - but that's me, not the material.
Some steels are harder than others, or more wear resistant, so very hard SS takes more effort than a softer Carbon and yes the burr will be more resilient, naturally. I have worked with some CS that was ridiculously hard to sharpen.
But, when things are about equal, they're about equal.
I wouldn't call myself a geek of any sort actually, but I've sharpened more than a few things along the way to today.
I can sharpen comparable SS / Carbon blades to hair whittling degrees equally easily when the alloys are comparable.
There is no point to comparing a S30V EDC to a 1940s CS Thiers slicer - Yes, the Crucible steel is a bear to work and the Thiers will sharpen faster. The S30V will be sharper, though, usually.
But on my bench comparable steels are comparable in the work needed to get the edge there. This is why I don't like or use the common generalizations. A lot of people try to compare modern stainless steels to less complex CS alloys and sure there's a difference in work needed to get done because of the obvious differences in the materials. But I own stainless that sharpens fast and gets just as sharp just as fast as some CS.
Anyway, to me steel is just steel and none of it is particularly 'sexy'. Tamagahane might get close to that but only because of the process involved. The steel itself is still just steel. It's all just steel to me. Carbon, Stainless, etc... whatever.
But what a smith does with the steel, that's another story.
I agree with this. So much modern steel is garbage and people that appreciate edged implements really should be looking into time period and mfg. methods. Im looking down the barrel on forging and it's kind of intimidating. Learning about steel compositions and what not is a very parsed out science. Shaping steel(or wood, plaster, concrete, whatever) was never a problem but the "brewing" so to speak is intimidating. It's not simple as "yeast+juice+sugar+time", metallurgy is absolutly a fine art.
If it's actually that easy for you, you need to write a book to let the rest of the sharpening world know about your methods.
It's such a quandary for the rest of the sharpening community that the late Vadim Kraichuk, PhD, dedicated a substantial portion of his life's work to addressing the issue. He published the sixth edition of his book, Knife Deburring: Science Behind the Lasting Razor Edge, in late 2020 or early 2021, before dying in early 2022.
If what you're saying is true, your knowledge and skill is far beyond what he achieved through years of meticulous research and experimentation, and I think most of us considered him to be the world's foremost authority on the subject.
The 'sharpening community' is the main reason I bailed on knife forums so long ago.
I've not read his book but not agreeing 100% with Mr Vadim's opinions isn't definitely not a unique scenario.
Can't say what I agree with him on, or not, though, since I haven't read his work.
I do remember reading about a thread about Vadim's theory of high end steels requiring high end abrasives though. Regardless of whether or not I agree with that 100% or not, what I am saying about alloys being compared need to be relatively equal is tangential to that concept.
For example, if someone is saying a burr on S30V is harder to remove than a burr on a 1950s Cutco boning knife, well yeah, duh.
Won't agree with it being 'hard' to remove the burr in either of those two cases.
Trying to make edge/burr comparisons between those two steels is ridiculous though, it's beyond apples/oranges.
I have a SS kitchen knife on the counter now. If someone told me removing a burr from that blade was difficult or harder to do than it is with the CS relative sitting in the block, I'd tell them to go get some exercise and maybe start lifting weights. Seriously.
I've not read his book but not agreeing 100% with Mr Vadim's opinions isn't definitely not a unique scenario.
Can't say what I agree with him on, or not, though, since I haven't read his work.
I do remember reading about a thread about Vadim's theory of high end steels requiring high end abrasives though. Regardless of whether or not I agree with that 100% or not, what I am saying about alloys being compared need to be relatively equal is tangential to that concept.
For example, if someone is saying a burr on S30V is harder to remove than a burr on a 1950s Cutco boning knife, well yeah, duh.
Won't agree with it being 'hard' to remove the burr in either of those two cases.
Trying to make edge/burr comparisons between those two steels is ridiculous though, it's beyond apples/oranges.
I have a SS kitchen knife on the counter now. If someone told me removing a burr from that blade was difficult or harder to do than it is with the CS relative sitting in the block, I'd tell them to go get some exercise and maybe start lifting weights. Seriously.
Chicago Cutlery always ALWAYS feels like rental knives to me. I'd wager they're 99.9% identical to the rental knives you can buy for a couple bucks in china town.
Take an easy edge, but not a lightning edge; but don't hold it super well. For a couple bucks not bad... but frankly; if you get lucky and get one that isn't just plain lying in the description... some of the Chinese ultra-hard knife sets on Amazon/etc can be really good for crazy low prices. I help my in laws pick a set and I've bought a few other knives for others as gifts; and they are shockingly close to my real quality knives... especially when you consider they cost 10% or less. Now I'm sure there's plenty of bad examples out there too; but seems many/most are solid.
Craziest knife I've ever held was an old OXO chefs knife. That thing would actually take an OK edge... not good, but passable for home cooking most things... and you could hone it in literally <3-4 passes on a stone. It was like "honing" iron. Any stone would just MELT steel off it. On a RHS it rated puppy coat. Chicago Cutlery isn't THAT soft... but they sure aren't hard.
Take an easy edge, but not a lightning edge; but don't hold it super well. For a couple bucks not bad... but frankly; if you get lucky and get one that isn't just plain lying in the description... some of the Chinese ultra-hard knife sets on Amazon/etc can be really good for crazy low prices. I help my in laws pick a set and I've bought a few other knives for others as gifts; and they are shockingly close to my real quality knives... especially when you consider they cost 10% or less. Now I'm sure there's plenty of bad examples out there too; but seems many/most are solid.
Craziest knife I've ever held was an old OXO chefs knife. That thing would actually take an OK edge... not good, but passable for home cooking most things... and you could hone it in literally <3-4 passes on a stone. It was like "honing" iron. Any stone would just MELT steel off it. On a RHS it rated puppy coat. Chicago Cutlery isn't THAT soft... but they sure aren't hard.
The flat grind works well and is easy to thin along the way. If they were made in a higher quality steel or ran at a higher hardness they would be really awesome.
Different examples of CC from different eras feel different on the stones.
None are exceptionally hard. Some harder than others.
Older pieces seem to have something the newer ones don't and I am sure the newest stuff is less desirable.
I use mine daily and they do very well. Easy to sharpen, they do take a very sharp edge, and that edge lasts well.
Well, to be fair, baking can be a fine art too, it's really not just 1+2+3=6 all the time... I've put a lot of time/effort into baking bread and can require a highly refined skill set. Def an art.
But yeah... metallurgy is def a fine art and generalizations often breed confusion.
None are exceptionally hard. Some harder than others.
Older pieces seem to have something the newer ones don't and I am sure the newest stuff is less desirable.
I use mine daily and they do very well. Easy to sharpen, they do take a very sharp edge, and that edge lasts well.
Well, to be fair, baking can be a fine art too, it's really not just 1+2+3=6 all the time... I've put a lot of time/effort into baking bread and can require a highly refined skill set. Def an art.
But yeah... metallurgy is def a fine art and generalizations often breed confusion.
Not really much from the UK I'm afraid as the very large majority are more suited to razors, only thing I'd particularly recommend are Dalmores (Blue). The Holy Trinity of of knife sharpening sharpening stones are; Washita, Turkish, BBW x Coticule.
To make a massive generalization: Jnats tend to be quite slow. Which isn't good for kitchen knife edges. And the few that are relatively fast for the level they work at, are working at a level that's too fine for general purpose knife edges. There are going to be some exceptions, but even so - no jnat will be as good as the 3 / 4 stones mentioned above. I never use them for normal edge sharpening.
Where jnats excel in knife terms is for traditional Japanese single bevel slicers (yanagiba, takohiki, &c.), and for bevel polishing.
I don't think anyone could reasonably argue with this statement. Except for a tiny number of of very specific things*, stainless pretty much never deburrs like high quality Japanese 'carbon' steels.
Though I think the difference in deburring is overplayed; the large majority of stainless, especially the cheaper stuff, doesn't actually form burrs in quite the same way that the paper steels do. Because stainless generally has quite high wear resistance relative to its HRC hardness, and it simply behaves differently on stones and belts.
Those differences might be quite small, or even unnoticeable to a lot of people. But I sharpen knives for a living (probably 100+ per week), and when you do that - you notice.
* I thinned and sharpened a Japanese knife made from a steel called 'VS1' the other day. It's the only (semi) stainless I can remember that I was convinced was 'carbon' steel. In fact it was only when I tried to etch it that I realised it wasn't.
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I don't think I've ever had any experience with VS1, but I'm going to be on the lookout for it now.
I'm just a hobbiest, but I rarely have to resort to (consciously) increasing the angle to deburr carbon steel. Stainless, on the other hand — especially the cheap stuff — I sometimes have to raise the angle on. I'm not a microbevel guy, and I really like to avoid that whenever possible, but I'll do it when I must to avoid an hour on strops to get the foil off of cheap stainless.
p.s. I meant to say here: ‘The Holy Trinity of *natural* knife sharpening stones are...’
There are plenty of synths that are very good for knives!
Yeah I’d certainly reccommend keeping an eye out for VS1! I hadn’t knowingly used or sharpened it before either, but it really surprised me. So much so that I took some pics to ask on KKF if anyone knew what it was, and apparently the maker is Masashi Yamamoto. This was a really spectacular knife by the time I’d finished with it:
More generally though; like you, I often use quite different methods for the end-game of sharpening stainless vs carbon.
For most stainless (apart from some of the very posh stuff) I finish trailing, and then strop hard on leather. Which gives good results consistently and quickly on even the crappiest of steels.
For most carbon (especially the posh stuff) I finish leading and strop lightly on newspaper. This method is notably harder to pull off really well, as it masks fewer shortcomings in one’s technique or the steel. But it’s what I like to do on fancy knives, as it seems to translate a fidelity of the stone’s finish that stropping on leather obfuscates.
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My Chicago Cutlery chefs knife and pairing knife are fantastic, the rest of the knives in the block(especially steak knives) are utter trash.
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