Third Wave Coffee - what's with the light roasting?

[EmptyB]

I have some questions for the resident coffee geeks (you know who you are). What is it about the light roasting profiles used by most if not all "third wave" coffee roasters? Sometimes the coffee doesn't even taste like "coffee" anymore. I usually enjoy the light roasts, but sometimes it just tastes too strange to me. For example, I'm drinking a Burundi from Portola Coffee Lab right now (that shop is very cool - check it out). It's pretty good today but yesterday the cup was bad. The bag is amusing with the flavor notes: stone fruit (whatever THAT is), floral aromatics, cane sugar, sweet spice, and milk chocolate finish. Where is the "coffee" flavor lol?

Is there a trick to brewing light roasts versus, say, a full city or full city + roast? My routine has settled to a ceramic Beehouse dripper, using 1.6 grams of beans per ounce of water, ground somewhat on the finer side of drip to extend the brew time somewhat. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong or the dripper is not the best way to brew light roasts? I mean, should I be using less coffee, finer/coarser grind, hotter water, blah blah blah?

Perhaps I'm brewing correct and the flavor I'm experiencing is intentional. That's a wholly acceptable conclusion, too. I just want to be sure that I'm not blowing it here.

Thanks. Cheers.

 

[Jim]

Good question.

At the end of the day if you don't like the coffee- its not for you.

For myself anything past City plus just tastes burnt. Have you played with the grinder settings to explore the sweet spot?

You can play with the dosing and see if that changes the experience, try 2g per ounce.

Stone fruit is a fruit with a pit like a peach or a cherry.

 

[JPDyson]

Stone fruits are fruits with pits. Peach is a common example, though plum and cherry qualify as well (yet are typically named explicitly in flavor notes). The rest of it is also quite common (florals, spice, chocolate). I imagine Cane sugar is a way of clarifying exactly what kind of sweetness (vs, say honey sweetness or even different kinds of sugar). The more specific flavor notes tend to draw ire and suspicion from some. I suspect this actually represents more of the affect that the primary tastes notes have on the general perception of sweetness, tartness, body, or other taste notes (for example, a coffee with peach notes and a tart finish may be described as tasting of "peach skins" instead of just peach - legit, but may sound fishy or overly embellished without further consideration).

Brewing formula: 60g of coffee per 1000g of water. This is roughly 1 liter or almost 34oz of water. Sticking to weight keeps things simple, as does using common units. You can, of course, convert as you like - but if you're having problems, simplifying the math is a good way to start. The Beehouse is brilliant - a two-hole design is my personal favorite, though mine is made by Bonmac. Do be sure you're rinsing the filter. I also grind a significant amount finer than "auto drip". It's actually in the "espresso" range on my grinder (13 on a Virtuoso). Total brew time is 2:30, from start of pre-infusion to the transition to drops instead of stream. In the end, I don't think it's out of line to suggest it should taste "different" from what you're used to in darker roasts.

Here's a counter-argument that I like to offer to opponents of light roast (not lumping you in, sir - just explaining): the darker you roast coffee, the more it tastes the same. So, maybe that "coffee" flavor you're looking for is actually roast flavor. By roasting coffee less, you taste more of what distinguishes coffees from each other, and not what you're doing to them that makes them taste the same. If you like roast flavor, that's cool - stick to darker roasts. You're certainly not alone! Some of us find the lighter roasts and brilliant, "un-coffee" flavors more enjoyable.

Don't let anybody tell you how to drink your coffee - 2nd Wave, 3rd Wave, whatever.

Addendum: Point of clarity regarding "3rd wave". This is sometimes used to reference the tendency to roast lighter, but may also reference a brew style - major up-dosing with shorter brew times, intended to extract as much of the aromatics as possible while avoiding bitter flavors (and usually, body).

 

[EmptyB]

Thanks to both of you. So, 60g/34oz of water is 1.76 g/oz, which is close to what I'm using. I'll try grinding a little finer to see if that makes a difference b/c I have heard that under-extraction may lead to sour taste. I always rinse the filter with hot water, so at least that part is right.

I hate very dark roasts, e.g., Starbucks and Peet's. My local roaster tends to roast at or near full city, so I am used to the dark side rather than the light side. I enjoy both types!

"Brilliant" is a good descriptor for the lighter roasts. Good word.

 

[Jasonian]

Third Wave has been defined as the coffee culture that focuses on quality and letting the coffee speak for itself.

Roasting too dark is NOT letting the coffee speak for itself, as it destroys aromatics and imparts the tastes of roasting reactions (maillard, strecker degradation, and others) instead of the flavors inherent to the coffee itself.

It is important to remember what coffee is, and where it comes from. It is a fruit. It should not be a surprise that it tastes of fruit. Coffee is more complex (chemically and aromatically) than wine, yet you don't often hear people say something like "why doesn't my wine just taste like.. wine? Why must it taste of fruit, flowers, spices and such?"

The problem is that people are used to paying too little for a poor quality product sold as a commodity. Such a model is simply unsustainable. Saving money on the backs of others is never good practice, and yet, this is precisely what we are doing when we buy a can of commodity coffee like Folgers, Maxwell House, Yuban, just to name a few. Even Starbucks isn't exactly ethical in their approach to coffee buying. (despite what their marketing department would prefer you believe)

Specialty coffee enables us to get supremely better products that we pay more for.. our paying more enables those who grow the coffee to actually IMPROVE their quality of life (sounds very American, doesn't it?) rather than hinder it (as commodity coffee does). Keeping others in poverty to cut costs has too long been the norm in our US culture of "plenty". When coffee is grown well, harvested only when ripe, and properly processed, the result is absolutely beautiful. You have to ask yourself if you are the roaster of said coffee why you would want to hide those amazing characteristics that made you fall in love with the coffee in the first place, prompting you to buy it to roast for others. Any self-respecting coffee lover would have a hard time doing it.

So many have fallen in love with coffee and the power it has to change lives over the past ten or so years. Several had before then, too, but it really seems to have exploded recently, and the growth is continuing. I hope this helps to explain the light roast revolution.

p.s. - I do not believe that every coffee loves a light roast, but I am positive that most coffees do not preform best at French. French Roast is a four-letter word around my roasterie.

 

[JPDyson]

Glad the metaphor rang true; I was aiming for that (re: brilliant, as in colors).

I, personally, tend to think of the first signs of 2nd Crack as the wailing "FULL STOP" alarm, for any coffee I roast. Anything before that, however, is fair game. If I'm cutting a Mokha with Sumatra or Java, I might bump into FC+. Perhaps I'm not a true 3rd waver... I'm keen on their beans, but not exclusively, and their brewing leaves something to be desired. I'm waiting for Jason to weigh in here, but I suspect he'll espouse a more reliable extraction method like a properly-wielded vacuum pot or french press, over against a manual pour-over. In the latter, you're more likely to balance the aromatics and the acidity of light-roasted coffee with whatever body and middle-notes they have.

Got a press hanging around in your cupboard, by any chance? Try your coffee that way...

Edit: He DID weigh in, while I was composing this post! Oops...

 

[EmptyB]

Third Wave has been defined as the coffee culture that focuses on quality and letting the coffee speak for itself.

Roasting too dark is NOT letting the coffee speak for itself, as it destroys aromatics and imparts the tastes of roasting reactions (maillard, strecker degradation, and others) instead of the flavors inherent to the coffee itself.

It is important to remember what coffee is, and where it comes from. It is a fruit. It should not be a surprise that it tastes of fruit. Coffee is more complex (chemically and aromatically) than wine, yet you don't often hear people say something like "why doesn't my wine just taste like.. wine? Why must it taste of fruit, flowers, spices and such?"

The problem is that people are used to paying too little for a poor quality product sold as a commodity. Such a model is simply unsustainable. Saving money on the backs of others is never good practice, and yet, this is precisely what we are doing when we buy a can of commodity coffee like Folgers, Maxwell House, Yuban, just to name a few. Even Starbucks isn't exactly ethical in their approach to coffee buying. (despite what their marketing department would prefer you believe)

Specialty coffee enables us to get supremely better products that we pay more for.. our paying more enables those who grow the coffee to actually IMPROVE their quality of life (sounds very American, doesn't it?) rather than hinder it (as commodity coffee does). Keeping others in poverty to cut costs has too long been the norm in our US culture of "plenty". When coffee is grown well, harvested only when ripe, and properly processed, the result is absolutely beautiful. You have to ask yourself if you are the roaster of said coffee why you would want to hide those amazing characteristics that made you fall in love with the coffee in the first place, prompting you to buy it to roast for others. Any self-respecting coffee lover would have a hard time doing it.

So many have fallen in love with coffee and the power it has to change lives over the past ten or so years. Several had before then, too, but it really seems to have exploded recently, and the growth is continuing. I hope this helps to explain the light roast revolution.

p.s. - I do not believe that every coffee loves a light roast, but I am positive that most coffees do not preform best at French. French Roast is a four-letter word around my roasterie.

The Professor speaks! Man, you sound like one of those "MWF Activists" who get their panties in a wad whenever someone says that they can't make a lather with it. Sheesh, I was just asking whether or not I'm making my morning cup right or wrong lol. Seriously, thanks for the insight, though. Always like to hear from Jasonian and JPDyson regarding coffee topics.

 

[Jasonian]

The Professor speaks! Man, you sound like one of those "MWF Activists" who get their panties in a wad whenever someone says that they can't make a lather with it. Sheesh, I was just asking whether or not I'm making my morning cup right or wrong lol. Seriously, thanks for the insight, though. Always like to hear from Jasonian and JPDyson regarding coffee topics.

I don't mean to lecture, really. It may be obvious, but I am very passionate about coffee and those who are directly impacted by it. It may be my business, but I've been this way far before I went pro. I like to give perspective whenever possible, and this just seemed like one such opportunity. If it tastes like fruit, you're doing it right.

That having been said, generic "coffee" flavor is non-specific, and is usually indicative of coffees from South America. Most commodity coffees are Brazilian, which is where the nutty flavors come from (enter: Chock Full o'Nuts), among other "coffee" type flavors. It is the result of low-altitude growing and strip harvesting (when everything is harvested, with no selectiveness implemented to whether or not the fruit is yet ripe for the picking at the time of harvest), and dry processing (imparting a heavier body and a slight sweetness). You also get a whole lot of twigs, rocks, other debris, and LOTS of defects like broken beans, full blacks, partial blacks, insect damage, quakers, just to name a few, so what you're tasting is mostly NOT what coffee "tastes like", but more like what coffee is "not supposed to" taste like.

If you want to tone down the acidity to make it more balanced, use a higher temperature and/or more dwell time. (I suggest the higher temperature first) If you prefer that your coffee not taste like fruit, I would avoid high-altitude coffees in general, and stick with low-altitude growing regions like Brazil, Sumatra, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, other islands (most of PNG excluded). It also helps to read flavor descriptors before buying.

Sorry.. I didn't mean to lecture... again.

 

[EmptyB]

If I didn't want to be educated, I wouldn't have baited you like I did. I actually made a second cup awhile ago and used a finer grind. It made a noticeable difference so maybe the last cup was simply underextracted. Anyway, thanks for the tips.

PS - I do enjoy the fruit notes, and I always read the flavor notes if they are published. However, I find that the notes do not always track the actual taste in the cup and/or that my tastebuds are dead.

PPS - if you are ever in Orange County (California), stop into Portola Coffee Lab. They have a Slayer machine, a Kyoto drip contraption, a few of those vacuum siphon gizmos, Hario V60 cones, and a Bunn Trifecta machine. It's coffee geek heaven there for sure.

 

[Jasonian]

So, they have gadgets..

How's the coffee?

If I ever am in the area again, I'll be sure to look them up. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Retiredgene]

Third Wave has been defined as the coffee culture that focuses on quality and letting the coffee speak for itself.

Roasting too dark is NOT letting the coffee speak for itself, as it destroys aromatics and imparts the tastes of roasting reactions (maillard, strecker degradation, and others) instead of the flavors inherent to the coffee itself.

It is important to remember what coffee is, and where it comes from. It is a fruit. It should not be a surprise that it tastes of fruit. Coffee is more complex (chemically and aromatically) than wine, yet you don't often hear people say something like "why doesn't my wine just taste like.. wine? Why must it taste of fruit, flowers, spices and such?"

The problem is that people are used to paying too little for a poor quality product sold as a commodity. Such a model is simply unsustainable. Saving money on the backs of others is never good practice, and yet, this is precisely what we are doing when we buy a can of commodity coffee like Folgers, Maxwell House, Yuban, just to name a few. Even Starbucks isn't exactly ethical in their approach to coffee buying. (despite what their marketing department would prefer you believe)

Specialty coffee enables us to get supremely better products that we pay more for.. our paying more enables those who grow the coffee to actually IMPROVE their quality of life (sounds very American, doesn't it?) rather than hinder it (as commodity coffee does). Keeping others in poverty to cut costs has too long been the norm in our US culture of "plenty". When coffee is grown well, harvested only when ripe, and properly processed, the result is absolutely beautiful. You have to ask yourself if you are the roaster of said coffee why you would want to hide those amazing characteristics that made you fall in love with the coffee in the first place, prompting you to buy it to roast for others. Any self-respecting coffee lover would have a hard time doing it.

So many have fallen in love with coffee and the power it has to change lives over the past ten or so years. Several had before then, too, but it really seems to have exploded recently, and the growth is continuing. I hope this helps to explain the light roast revolution.

p.s. - I do not believe that every coffee loves a light roast, but I am positive that most coffees do not preform best at French. French Roast is a four-letter word around my roasterie.

Jasonian - well said and I agree with you 100%.

I go back to early years of coffee with the Coffee Connection (mid 1980s in Boston) following George Howell's light roasting recommendations. In the mid to late 90s we wandered the wilderness after Starbucks (Charbucks to many of us) until he started up Terroir in 2004 and brought back some real enjoyment to my daily addiction with his excellent selections : -) Now retired, I enjoy my morning two cups even more.

In the meantime I have tasted the Clover, checked out the new drip methods in a Atlanta Coffee house and enjoying the renaissance that is happening with coffee.

Gene

 

[valleyrider]

Day to Day the flavor of your coffee will change a little bit as the oils in the coffee get released, that's why you may love it one day and the next maybe not as much. Store your coffee in an air tight container and it will preserve the flavor longer.

 

[Jasonian]

Day to Day the flavor of your coffee will change a little bit as the oils in the coffee get released, that's why you may love it one day and the next maybe not as much. Store your coffee in an air tight container and it will preserve the flavor longer.

I just want to clarify something here.

The oil spotting has nothing to do with flavor unless it is going rancid (a good possibility if you don't know when it was roasted).

Coffee's flavor (combination of taste and aroma) changes over time as carbon dioxide is released, carrying aromatics out of the bean with it. Too much, and you get carbonic acid, and a handicapped extraction rate. Too little left, and you have a lifeless cup of dissolved solids.

 

[valleyrider]

Thanks for the clarification on what changes the flavor. I was told the oil thing by one person and it seemed to be logical so I didn't research it to make sure what was said was correct but your explanation does seem to be a more logical one as to the change in flavor. Guess I learned to always do my proper research before opening my mouth about something based on hear-say knowledge.

 

[StillShaving]

The oil thing would seem logical as it does appear a few days after roasting, the exact timing and degree of oiliness depends on the roast level and beans. As it is a visible marker of the bean physically changing.

 

[Redhead]

Roasting lightly means more moisture content is retained by the bean. So, a batch roasted lightly will weigh slightly more. Also, it's easier to roast fast and light to avoid a bitter brew, but you end up with a bland coffee. It could also be that they are using soft beans with a low moisture content that will not tolerate a full roast.
Red

 

[GarageBoy]

Vegetal flavors means under roasted
Bland beans will be bland regardless of roast

Roasters like Coffee Collective and Heart roast light, but have fully developed roasts

 

[xraygun]

I just ordered a scale so I can see if I'm close on these recommended measurements. Very interesting stuff.

 

[avsmusic1]

this has been one of the more informative threads i've read in a while. Thank you to everyone involved

 

[EmptyB]

Hey B&B coffee geeks (you know who you are)! As a follow up, so what is it about lighter roasts that seem to make it difficult if not impossible to get a nice bloom even though the beans are super fresh and freshly ground? Example: I just made my morning up using some Ethiopia beans from my local roaster that tends to roast almost everything close to or at full city. The bloom in my Beehouse filter was enormous, and I could actually see the bubbling and outgassing. In contrast, most if not all of the lighter roasts that I've had tend to be "flat" with little to no bloom.

Moreover, the end result in the filter after brewing is very different. With the blooming of the "darker" roasts, the wet grounds tend to stick to the sides of the filter, forming a nice uniform layer of grounds that conform to the funnel shape of the filter cone. On the other hand, the lighter roasts tend to merely form a bed of mud-like wet grounds at the bottom of the cone. This leads me to suspect that during brewing there is hot water slipping through the side of the filter rather than passing through the grounds. Does this make any sense? Is this typical of a lighter roast?

On a somewhat unrelated coffee note, I sometimes buy beans at Whole Foods. They put "roast dates" on the coffee bean bins. I think those dates are a load of crap, and might be misleading. I have purchased beans that supposedly were roasted just a couple of days before, but when brewed it is obvious that they are much older. Meh.