The “other” components in the reformulated MWF shaving soap.

[Brutus]

The news that Mitchell’s Woolf Fat has dropped tallow as ingredient has many shavers up in arms.

There is a thread growing like wildfire and it has grown to a size that it already risked a few times jumping off the rails by side discussions that distract from the original tallow/non-tallow MWF discussion.


What puzzles me, however, is not the loss of tallow but what MWF has replaced the tallow with.
(So I would ask you please to refrain in this thread from contributions that refer to tallow related subjects.)

- Sodium Palmate
- Potassium Palmate

These two are now the first mentioned (meaning: highest proportion) ingredients on the label.
Much has been made about the fact that MWF may want to cater to people (not necessarily vegan) who prefer to buy products where no animal was harmed in their production.
Not only are such concerns legitimate, they may even be applaudable.


But what about raw materials like palm oils and palm kernel oils that are used in the production of Sodium Palmate and Potassium Palmate and which contribute extensively to deforestation, reduction in biodiversity, and have serious social and environmental effects?

Before my retirement from active flying, I flew over Malaysia (25% of 2021 palm oil world production) and Indonesia (59% of 2021 palm oil world production) and have seen what recurring smoke haze, a form of air pollution linked to the burning of rainforest and peat swamp forests to clear land for palm oil plantations, can do to the environment, biodiversity, wildlife, and human health.

Therefore, both in the EU, UK and USA initiatives are now under way to phase out the import of unsustainable palm oil.


So did MWF replace tallow, an ingredient “undesirable” to some, with two ingredients that are made from equally “undesirable” raw materials that in the near future may be banned, restricted, or where the import may require certification as produced under environmentally sustainable methods?


I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this dilemma…



B.


Here some resources:

EU Deforestation Regulation: Implications for the Palm Oil Industry and Its Financers - Chain Reaction Research

This report discusses the EU’s regulation on deforestation-free products and how its requirements will affect the palm oil industry, one of the key commodities driving deforestation. The upcoming law, expected to be implemented in 2023, will have implications for palm oil supply chain actors and...

chainreactionresearch.com

Palm oil: A climate change culprit – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet

Vital Signs of the Planet: Global Climate Change and Global Warming. Current news and data streams about global warming and climate change from NASA.

climate.nasa.gov

Social and environmental impact of palm oil - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Palm oil - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What is Palm Oil? Facts About the Palm Oil Industry

As palm oil plantations spread rapidly, deforestation impacts wildlife habitats and human communities. The sustainable production and harvesting of palm oil is imperative.

www.worldwildlife.org

 

[NorthernSoul]

Someone from Men's Room Barber Shop posted some correspondence with Mitchell's about the change. It sounds like more of a business decision related to consistent cost and availability of the ingredients. I don't think environmental concerns were behind it.

Mitchells Wool Fat Shaving Soap is no longer Tallow based

WSP Formula T is an excellent tallow soap. :) Think I'll use the WSP Formula T Tobacco today. :)

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I spent some time yesterday reading about tallow production, demand across industries etc and posted about it in a different thread. But basically, the supply is inelastic, animal production is entirely driven by the food industry, and while rendered fats are quite valuable (up to 20% of the total value of a carcass), that's not going to drive increased production. The biggest change in demand pressure has been use in biofuels, but there are other industries that use tallow too: it's used as a lubricant in cold rolling steel, it's used as a base for other lubricants, non-cosmetic cleaning products, and various animal feeds. Now, most of the biofuel use is grade 3 tallow which isn't going into shaving soaps, but it puts a demand pressure on the higher grades. Also, in the EU all cosmetic as well as animal feed use is grade 1 edible tallow whic represents less than a quarter of the total rendered product. This may be the case in the US too but I wasn't able to confirm that. At any rate, there are some applications where tallow cannot be replaced by vegetable fats or synthetic lubricants. Cosmetics, however, can use vegetable oils, and while palm has environmental and ethical impacts, it's currently readily available and more price-stable.

I'm not sure this is still the case, but 10-15 years ago there were significant tax benefits for using tallows in biofuels in the EU because it was considered a byproduct, not a primary agricultural product, like soy or other crops. The oleochemical industry was lobbying to change that even then because it was impacting the availability of their raw materials.

I even read another paper that predicted the US would likely become a net *importer* of tallow because of domestic biofuel demand.

So, even though the tallow grades going into biofuels wouldn't be going into cosmetic soaps, the demand pressure it puts on other industries (steel, industrial lubes, non-cosmetic soaps, feedstocks) is ultimately felt by the cosmetics industry in both consistent availability and price.

The decision to use palm is not ethics, it's economics.

 

[Guido75]

The decision to use palm is not ethics, it's economics.

I believe this is indeed the case for MWF. And adds to @Brutus point. I don’t think a vegan fan base is the driver here, but simply economics given the fact that MWF is now produced outside of the EU following Brexit.

Quite early in my shaving I made a decision to at least try and minimise my palmate intake. That’s harder to do than I thought especially with Dutch soaps being palm based quite often - or even worse: the producer (despite laws) keeps us in the blind. I know it may not attribute to anything, but I try. I could argue of course that this reasoning should apply to tallow as well - and I think most of my current soaps actually do have tallow ingredients.

I am on my first MWF puck so I can enjoy it for a lengthy period ahead and it is the old formula. I think my shave shop in the next town only has the old formula in stock so maybe I need to stock up.

Guido

 

[Mike M]

I'm afraid I agree with @Brutus it seems to be cost not animal welfare concerns. The shift to plant based products started a couple of years ago though tallow prices have been rising since 2012-13. Palm oil has similarly been rising in price but is still much cheaper than tallow and although prices have dropped a little this year they are supposed to rise again in the second half probably leading to another increase in soap prices.

It looks like the shavepocalypse is upon us!

 

[Messygoon]

Mitchell’s quiet reformulation bothered me. So, I paused to contemplated why. The answers came fast.

• I dislike manipulation. Movies with an agenda get turned off. Reducing product in a repackaged consumer good (shrinkflation) leads me to switch brands. Retaining “Wool Fat” in the name was deceptive. Tallow (now absent) is a true fat, lanolin (still present) is not.
• I appreciate heritage. The art of wet shaving, with old school razors and hand-tied brush knots reminds me daily of the men who shaped my life. Knowing I am using the same soap dad could have used while in service in WW2 is comforting.
• I value passion over profit. Most, if not all of my shave den items were created by individuals who passionately pursued their dream. Economics were far down on their lists.

Mitchell’s Wool Fat was a personal favorite, conjuring images of a peaceful Yorkshire hillside. Tabac in its tallow form was also once a favorite. Now, neither are in reserve, neither will be purchased again. Disappointed? Yes. Bitter? No. There are too many other fine soap makers (tallow or otherwise) earning my support who are committed to their craft and loyal to their clients.

 

[BigJ]

Mitchell’s quiet reformulation bothered me. So, I paused to contemplated why. The answers came fast.

• I dislike manipulation. Movies with an agenda get turned off. Reducing product in a repackaged consumer good (shrinkflation) leads me to switch brands. Retaining “Wool Fat” in the name was deceptive. Tallow (now absent) is a true fat, lanolin (still present) is not.
• I appreciate heritage. The art of wet shaving, with old school razors and hand-tied brush knots reminds me daily of the men who shaped my life. Knowing I am using the same soap dad could have used while in service in WW2 is comforting.
• I value passion over profit. Most, if not all of my shave den items were created by individuals who passionately pursued their dream. Economics were far down on their lists.

Mitchell’s Wool Fat was a personal favorite, conjuring images of a peaceful Yorkshire hillside. Tabac in its tallow form was also once a favorite. Now, neither are in reserve, neither will be purchased again. Disappointed? Yes. Bitter? No. There are too many other fine soap makers (tallow or otherwise) earning my support who are committed to their craft and loyal to their clients.

View attachment 1661132

Well stated, Sir!!

Sorry, but they have lost an old customer with this move!!

 

[RayClem]

Many European producers are dropping tallow based soaps. Part of it is due to the cost of tallow and some is socially driven.

Based on my extensive evaluation of shaving soaps, I have concluded that stearic acid is one of the primary components of a great shaving soap. Tallow is one source of stearic acid, but stearic acid is found in some vegetable fats like Shea Butter Mango Butter, and Cocoa Butter. Many of the newer vegan soap formulations are based on Palmitic fatty acid derived from palm oil and palm kernel oil These oils are very inexpensive, so they are ideal for bath soaps. Palmitic acid also makes are a very slick soap, but it does not make the most stable or protective lather. Unfortunately, many native forests have been cut down to make way for palm tree plantations.

Palmitic fatty acid is based on a C16 hydrocarbon chain. Stearic acid is based on a slightly longer C18 hydrocarbon chain. Oleic fatty acid is also based on a C18 hydrocarbon chain, but unlike stearic acid, which is a saturated fat, oleic acid is mono-unsaturated. Thus, they do not perform the same.

To me, the key to a great soap is providing the right balance of fatty acids. While palmitic acid, oleic acid, linoleic acid, rinicoleic acid and others can be used, if they are not balanced with a suitable amount of stearic acid, the performance will suffer. I look for either tallow, tallowate, stearic acid or stearate to be near the top of the ingredient list. Including things like Shea butter, Mango butter, and Cocoa butter are also helpful.

For those who are satisfied with a shave soap that provides slickness alone, a soap based on palm oil and palm kernel oil is sufficient. However, if that is the only thing you require, you might as well be shaving with a consumer grade bath bar like Irish Spring. It makes a super slick lather, but the lather dissipates quickly and provides little protection.

 

[Guido75]

And then again on the subject is palmate - Truefitt & Hills 1805 hard soaps had palmate in it. Same goes for TOBS and Mühle hard soaps. I haven’t tried these but I believe they get great reviews.

 

[RayClem]

And then again on the subject is palmate - Truefitt & Hills 1805 hard soaps had palmate in it. Same goes for TOBS and Mühle hard soaps. I haven’t tried these but I believe they get great reviews.

These products used to be based on tallow or stearic acid. You are correct that they are now based on palmitic acid, although they do contain stearic acid. I never even considered their stearic acid based soaps to be any better than Tier III, so I have no interest in trying their palmitic acid products. The reputation of these brands was based on products from decades ago.

 

[AJMiami]

What I find most disappointing is their decision to remove tallow only from their shaving soap, while continuing to include it in their bath soap.

 

[geneaut]

What I find most disappointing is their decision to remove tallow only from their shaving soap, while continuing to include it in their bath soap.

They may have different suppliers for the two different products.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Two key points from other threads need to be mentioned. There are very, very, few top tier shave soaps that don't contain some form of stearate as one of the primary two ingredients.

The other point is that tallow is made up of about 30% oleic acid, which has skin moisturizing properties. If you don't factor in a large quantity of oleic acid to replace what is being removed with the tallow, the end product will never compare to the tallow based formula.

While it is possible to make a great vegan base, the ingredients list for the new MWF formula read almost identically to the blue Lea shave stick. The post-tallow version which was around for a year or two, that they reformulated again, because it was utter garbage.

This does not bode well for MWF's long term prospects at all. Either they will go back to the old tallow formula, or they will quickly change to another formula. Their current one will eventually kill their shaving soap's reputation.

 

[PLANofMAN]

They may have different suppliers for the two different products.

They do.

 

[RayClem]

Two key points from other threads need to be mentioned. There are very, very, few top tier shave soaps that don't contain some form of stearate as one of the primary two ingredients.

The other point is that tallow is made up of about 30% oleic acid, which has skin moisturizing properties. If you don't factor in a large quantity of oleic acid to replace what is being removed with the tallow, the end product will never compare to the tallow based formula.

While it is possible to make a great vegan base, the ingredients list for the new MWF formula read almost identically to the blue Lea shave stick. The post-tallow version which was around for a year or two, that they reformulated again, because it was utter garbage.

This does not bode well for MWF's long term prospects at all. Either they will go back to the old tallow formula, or they will quickly change to another formula. Their current one will eventually kill their shaving soap's reputation.

Animal tallow is a complex blend of various fatty acids. There are also differences in the fatty acid composition between various animals: beef, lamb, pork, bison, duck, bear, emu, etc. Knowledgeable soapmakers can take advantage of these differences to achieve the correct balance of fatty acids in their product. Some of my favorite soaps contain lamb tallow and/or duck fat.

Tallow also contains palmitic acid. There is nothing wrong with palmitic acid in a soap formula as long as it is balanced with a suitable amounts of other fats. Oleic acid can be a lather killer if the concentration is too high, but appropriate amounts of oleic acid can be good for the skin.

 

[PLANofMAN]

An interesting point brought up in the MWF reformulation thread is that Palm oil is going to be heavily restricted if not outright banned by 2030 in both the EU and UK. That means this current (new) formulation of MWF has a 7 year lifespan, at best.

Anyone care to speculate on which direction they will go on their next reformulation?

 

[Brutus]

An interesting point brought up in the MWF reformulation thread is that Palm oil is going to be heavily restricted if not outright banned by 2030 in both the EU and UK. That means this current (new) formulation of MWF has a 7 year lifespan, at best.

Anyone care to speculate on which direction they will go on their next reformulation?

I hate to speculate, but potassium stearate and sodium stearate (neither of which has to be made from palm oil) would be the logical choice.

Except for costs, I find it difficult to understand why they didn’t go this route in the first place when they decided to move away from tallow.


B.

 

[NorthernSoul]

An interesting point brought up in the MWF reformulation thread is that Palm oil is going to be heavily restricted if not outright banned by 2030 in both the EU and UK. That means this current (new) formulation of MWF has a 7 year lifespan, at best.

Anyone care to speculate on which direction they will go on their next reformulation?

Some blend of fractionated vegetable oils, other than palm, I'd guess. That's IF they actually are able to restrict palm oil.

The biggest problem with palm oil is what should be used instead. The largest volume oil crops after palm are soybean, canola (rapeseed) and sunflower. There is not enough of those oils produced to replace palm. Those oil crops also require more land to produce the same amount of oil as palm would. They are not making any new land, so where do you plant these hypothetical replacement crops?

Something like two-thirds of palm oil produced is currently going into foods. In future years, there will be more demand for vegetable oils for bio fuels. It will not be cheap or easy to replace palm oil.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Some blend of fractionated vegetable oils, other than palm, I'd guess. That's IF they actually are able to restrict palm oil.

The biggest problem with palm oil is what should be used instead. The largest volume oil crops after palm are soybean, canola (rapeseed) and sunflower. There is not enough of those oils produced to replace palm. Those oil crops also require more land to produce the same amount of oil as palm would. They are not making any new land, so where do you plant these hypothetical replacement crops?

Something like two-thirds of palm oil produced is currently going into foods. In future years, there will be more demand for vegetable oils for bio fuels. It will not be cheap or easy to replace palm oil.

If only there was some animal based oil/fat they could use...

 

[geneaut]

I hate to speculate, but potassium stearate and sodium stearate (neither of which has to be made from palm oil) would be the logical choice.

Except for costs, I find it difficult to understand why they didn’t go this route in the first place when they decided to move away from tallow.


B.

Working in manufacturing during these trying supply chain times, I have a hypothetical scenario that possibly describes the whole thing based on things that have happened to the company I work for:

MWF Purchasing "Hey, Giant Soap noodle manufacturer A, we'd like to order a whole bunch of our regular shave soap base. Load us up."

Giant Soap noodle manufacturer A "No problem. By the way, we aren't offering your regular soap base A any longer, but we have soap base B"

MWF Purchasing "What's the difference?"

Giant Soap noodle manufacturer A "Nothing much. Just substituting some ingredients. You won't notice a thing."

MWF Purchasing ( nervously checking on hand stock versus undelivered customer orders) "What ingredients?"

Giant Soap noodle manufacturer A "We dropped Tallow. Substituted palm. Barely an inconvenience. Your customers won't notice a thing. Who reads product labels?"

MWF Purchasing ( breaking out into a sweat ) "Let me call you right back."