The feel of the Kamisori

[Gustav]

I have been wanting to treat myself to a further new razor and I am eyeing a Kamisori. I notice however that its grind seems to be very wedge-like. Since I have found out that I have a strong preference for full hollow or extra hollow blades versus wedge or 1/4 hollow blades, I am wondering if I might be disappointed by the feel of a Kamisori because it might feel like the wedges that I used up until now.

So my question to all you Kamisori shavers is: how does it feel to shave with a Kamisori? Is it like shaving with a wedge or is it another beast entirely?

 

[oakeshott]

Erik,
This is a question more people should ask, so kudos to you for asking it.

I shave with both hollow ground and full wedges with equal alacrity...now. Initially, it took me a while to get used to wedges, but once committed to giving them a chance, it wasn't too hard to adjust my technique and get a good shave.

Kamisori posed a very different challenge and I had no idea just how hard it would be. I started off with everything in my favor. An NOS Tosuke honed by someone who knew what he was doing. The problem was with me. I just couldn't get those first few shaves right. I got a bit of coaching from Bayamontate and they improved dramatically. I commited to using nothing but my Kamisori for a month.

Well, it didn't last a month. It lasted just under three weeks. What I learned is that one can get just as good a shave with a kami as with a western straight, but it's nowhere near as effortless. It takes real concentration and technique. I think Gash once compared it to driving a Ferrari at 200mph.

Specifically, you'll use thinner and wetter lather. The blade will lay flat against your face and the cutting of the whiskers is not only perfectly silent, but with one of Nelson's edges, you don't even feel the cutting. At all. Many people will tell you to use both sides of the kami, and I did try that, but it seemed that doing so required an angle change in the blade. For the most part, I tried to get along using only one side of it. That requires holding it at some odd angles.

I have a series of very faint scars from my Kami efforts, but find I keep returning to it. It reminds me of what some friends of mine who are serious hunters are doing today after decades of hunting. Using regular firearms just became too easy so they took up muzzle loaders. After a while, that was too simple so they went to bows. Finally, one of my old co-workers even gave up using a tree stand for deer and stalks his prey using a bow he made by hand. Any other method, he told me, bored him.

That is what using a kami is like. It's a challenge. It's about as simple and direct a method for cutting whiskers as there is, but it requires attention, skill and patience to get right. I wish I could quit it, but I cant.

 

[Lmarkow]

I think Mark pretty much nails my experience too, especially shaving with two different angles on the two different sides. I would add, though, that the smaller blade really does/should add some maneuverability, but that was offset for me by trying to figure out angles and hand positions again.

My last significant scar was courtesy of my kami.

 

[gash]

I agree with the gentlemen above. Also:

The two sides of my kamisori feel quite different from each other, and they shave me differently, too. I think of the cross section as being like a giant letter 'C', with the bottom terminus being the cutting edge. When I shave with the convex side against my face, the shave is smooth as silk. When I flip the blade over and have the concave side against my skin, the shave is generally smooth, but I can feel the edge digging in a bit, especially during an against-the-grain pass. (Obviously, the 'C' is an exaggeration, and the blade is shaped differently, but it's an easy way to explain the sensation.) The difference is enough that I'm beginning to use only the convex side during an against-the-grain pass. This has led to some interesting grips. The resulting shaves have felt much smoother.

For me, the kamisori has been far sharper than Western straights. There's debate about which is usually sharper, which can be made sharper, etc., and I don't want to rekindle that discussion. My experience with my razors has been that the kamisori needs to be sharper than the Western straights in order to shave well. This has led to a lot of excitement/terror during my shaves. If I make a little mistake, my Western straights warn me before I cut myself. My kamisori may give me a tiny warning, or it may just lop bits of flesh off. I love it.

All of the Western straights I've used have had hollow grinds, so I can't compare a kamisori and a Western wedge. If I had to guess, I'd say that there's a good chance you'd be disappointed with the feel of a kamisori. There's only one way to know, though, and if you bought one and didn't like it, I think you could sell it without losing much.

 

[mantic]

I've been on my own kamisori journey and I've pretty much come to the same conclusion as the others commenting here. I was really hoping it would be a more effortless shave but I think it is not to be. But unlike the OP I have discovered the opposite: I prefer wedge-like grinds. Kami's work OK for me if I'm very mindful but I prefer the Hart Steel straight I have. I have a couple full hollow straights but I don't get as good of a shave from them.

 

[Gustav]

Thank you all for your enlightening answers. To begin with I felt a bit put off to tell you the truth but then again I will not be satisfied until I have tried. The impression I get is that it seems to be a different beast which really makes it even more interesting.

 

[rockviper]

I have, and use, both an Azuma kamisori and two western straights, both Wapienica's. Since Sep.2012 I've tried a bunch of different grinds and find that I prefer the heavier ones. Hence, the blades I have.

If you are looking for a kamisori that has the same shaving sound as a hollow grind, I think you're going to be disappointed. Mine is a silent killer of whiskers with nothing sounding at all like the "scraping toast" of a full hollow. Grips are slightly different as well, but I go back and forth between my straights without issue.

Shaving-wise, kamisori's have a reputation of being bloodthirsty (I've been bitten a bunch), so I muted the toe and heel and now it's all good. The smaller blade length means that you're taking more strokes, which means you're putting blade to face more often. When starting out with the kamisori and the tweaked grips you need, this probably means a few more cat scratches than you're used to.

End result: At the end of the day, a great shave is a great shave, irrespective of how you got there.


PS. I like kamisoris

 

[oakeshott]

Mine is only a romantic theory, but after having shaved with at least a dozen Japanese western style straights and 4 different Kamisori, I suspect that the great Japanese blade smiths enthusiastically embraced the western style after being exposed to them. Like so many things that were invented elsewhere, the Japanese seem to have perfected it in Japan. I hypothesize that many of their craftsman immediately recognized the superior utility of the Western straight over the traditional Kami and then threw themselves into making the very best versions of that technology. Historically, artisanal craftsmen have resisted substantial changes in the design and manufacture of traditional products. Looking at it from a very, very long way away, that doesn't seem to have occurred here. Though he made Kamis right up to the end, I can easily imagine Iwasaki keeping a bathroom full of western style razors in a drawer for daily use and only having a kami or two for show. You know, in case his in-laws came to stay for a day or two.

With that deeply speculative observation, I still have to say that there's something about a Kami that tugs at one's imagination. I love looking at mine and the feel of it and I even enjoy the challenge of using it. I'm also a little scared of it. I think if an evil Ouch (is there another sort?) took all my razors in the middle of the night leaving only the Kamis, then I would screw myself to the sticking place and shave every day with what I had. At the end of a year, that Kami would probably be as natural in my hand and on my face as my favorite Western straight. But, were I to pick up a conventional straight at the end of the year, it would astound me with its ease of use and the quality of the effortless shave. I think that must be what the Japanese experienced when Western straights were introduced.

 

[Doc226]

Used a few, did not use long enough to really get used to it, I am so used to western straight that I just did not feel comfortable. The two spike point also can give you double kisses

 

[Bayamontate]

Like Rolls razor blades, I honed over a hundred Kamisori before I actually used one. Some may think this strange but I did do very extensive research on all things Kamisori before proceeding and after formulating several different approaches have been very successful honing them. I will say that after purchasing my first three Kamisori and shaving with them exclusively for over six months I did gain a higher level of understanding on how they work and how to hone them more effectively. Recently I've had to tweak my approach to accommodate Kamisori users opting to use both sides, not a big deal actually, altering ratios and a different approach on the Ura side of the razor facilitate this shift in operation very well.

Lathering is another important consideration. I noticed the Japanese are not into using copious amounts of lather and use lather of a waterier consistency. I figure that with the Omote (more blade portion in use than a Western razor) being flat of the face glide would be a added consideration. To help me in this area I went to a brush with minimal loft and it works well.

I've never subscribed to the Western/Kamisori razor being better argument, I feel that they are simply different. With some time and patience both are great ways to shave, having your Kamisori properly honed is a good first step.

 

[oakeshott]

Like Rolls razor blades, I honed over a hundred Kamisori before I actually used one. Some may think this strange but I did do very extensive research on all things Kamisori before proceeding and after formulating several different approaches have been very successful honing them. I will say that after purchasing my first three Kamisori and shaving with them exclusively for over six months I did gain a higher level of understanding on how they work and how to hone them more effectively. Recently I've had to tweak my approach to accommodate Kamisori users opting to use both sides, not a big deal actually, altering ratios and a different approach on the Ura side of the razor facilitate this shift in operation very well.

Lathering is another important consideration. I noticed the Japanese are not into using copious amounts of lather and use lather of a waterier consistency. I figure that with the Omote (more blade portion in use than a Western razor) being flat of the face glide would be a added consideration. To help me in this area I went to a brush with minimal loft and it works well.

I've never subscribed to the Western/Kamisori razor being better argument, I feel that they are simply different. With some time and patience both are great ways to shave, having your Kamisori properly honed is a good first step.

And here's the guy to do it. I hone all my own razors, but the Kamis go to Bayamontate.

 

[Bayamontate]

Thank you Mark. Kamisori are special, and as such, require special consideration. Unfortunately Omote Assassination occurs at an alarming rate.

 

[global_dev]

I felt similar, I wanted to try it, and I just just, for some reason, didn't
T enjoy the couple shaves I had. I regret getting rid of it, but it's not a painful regret..

 

[Lmarkow]

Thank you Mark. Kamisori are special, and as such, require special consideration. Unfortunately Omote Assassination occurs at an alarming rate.

Is resuscitation possible? [. . . . He cautiously asks having just mailed his kami for some "special consideration."]

 

[Bayamontate]

It is possible. But, it is labor intensive.

 

[Bayamontate]

lmarlow, the Omote on your Kamisori was not quite assassinated but a serious attempt to take its life was made.

I'm happy to report that she's going to be fine.

 

[Lmarkow]

Phew, thanks Bayamontate. I look forward to its healthy return.

 

[noahpictures]

I have owned a few including an Iwasaki and a couple of other popular ones. They all felt very different not because of the blade but mainly because of the handle. I found the Iwasaki handle to be awkward and not user friendly. The same with Henkotsu. I only kept the Ochiyama Kamisori which is a joy to shave with and feels just right to hold, like an extension of my hand. My theory is that guys cut themselves due to the unfriendly handle on the popular brands. I find Kamisori to be more forgiving than full hollow blades.

 

[metatron]

Erik,
This is a question more people should ask, so kudos to you for asking it.

I shave with both hollow ground and full wedges with equal alacrity...now. Initially, it took me a while to get used to wedges, but once committed to giving them a chance, it wasn't too hard to adjust my technique and get a good shave.

Kamisori posed a very different challenge and I had no idea just how hard it would be. I started off with everything in my favor. An NOS Tosuke honed by someone who knew what he was doing. The problem was with me. I just couldn't get those first few shaves right. I got a bit of coaching from Bayamontate and they improved dramatically. I commited to using nothing but my Kamisori for a month.

Well, it didn't last a month. It lasted just under three weeks. What I learned is that one can get just as good a shave with a kami as with a western straight, but it's nowhere near as effortless. It takes real concentration and technique. I think Gash once compared it to driving a Ferrari at 200mph.

Specifically, you'll use thinner and wetter lather. The blade will lay flat against your face and the cutting of the whiskers is not only perfectly silent, but with one of Nelson's edges, you don't even feel the cutting. At all. Many people will tell you to use both sides of the kami, and I did try that, but it seemed that doing so required an angle change in the blade. For the most part, I tried to get along using only one side of it. That requires holding it at some odd angles.

I have a series of very faint scars from my Kami efforts, but find I keep returning to it. It reminds me of what some friends of mine who are serious hunters are doing today after decades of hunting. Using regular firearms just became too easy so they took up muzzle loaders. After a while, that was too simple so they went to bows. Finally, one of my old co-workers even gave up using a tree stand for deer and stalks his prey using a bow he made by hand. Any other method, he told me, bored him.

That is what using a kami is like. It's a challenge. It's about as simple and direct a method for cutting whiskers as there is, but it requires attention, skill and patience to get right. I wish I could quit it, but I cant.

this was practically poetry, and I wanted to repost this since I've just been using an Inoue Tousuke for a few weeks now, and have finally gotten comfortable enough to go whole face with it since about 2 weeks ago. The first shave it was clear that I had to take it serious, and the angles and everything I decided I would use it to a comfortable point, then switch back to another razor, and each shave I would increase that comfort zone.

Baya was one of the brethren who got me into wet shaving again full force in the first place after I picked it back up again many years back, and I still basically use the original set up he recommended. I was psyched to see his knowledge and wisdom at play here.

I can't help but make the reference to old samurai movies of which I am a fan, one of the big lines that must be delivered after a few sword exchanges is something like "DON'T UNDERESTIMATE ME" and then the swords whisper again and someone gets cut. I feel like that is what this razor is always saying to me. It really requires a type of mastery, and so far I've only needed one pass.

With that being said I don't find myself staring at my other razors the way I turn this thing over in my hand, and I catch myself taking it up to make the light dance on it's pattern welded waves before I even know I've done it lol, and once a week or so without fail I post a shave of the day pic...it's equal parts fascination and fear perhaps, or like driving a Ferrari at speed I like that.

Also, as I plan on adding a few more now, I think I have a cool use for some of my old Bolivar boxes.

 

[oakeshott]

this was practically poetry, and I wanted to repost this since I've just been using an Inoue Tousuke for a few weeks now, and have finally gotten comfortable enough to go whole face with it since about 2 weeks ago. The first shave it was clear that I had to take it serious, and the angles and everything I decided I would use it to a comfortable point, then switch back to another razor, and each shave I would increase that comfort zone.

Baya was one of the brethren who got me into wet shaving again full force in the first place after I picked it back up again many years back, and I still basically use the original set up he recommended. I was psyched to see his knowledge and wisdom at play here.

I can't help but make the reference to old samurai movies of which I am a fan, one of the big lines that must be delivered after a few sword exchanges is something like "DON'T UNDERESTIMATE ME" and then the swords whisper again and someone gets cut. I feel like that is what this razor is always saying to me. It really requires a type of mastery, and so far I've only needed one pass.

With that being said I don't find myself staring at my other razors the way I turn this thing over in my hand, and I catch myself taking it up to make the light dance on it's pattern welded waves before I even know I've done it lol, and once a week or so without fail I post a shave of the day pic...it's equal parts fascination and fear perhaps, or like driving a Ferrari at speed I like that.

Also, as I plan on adding a few more now, I think I have a cool use for some of my old Bolivar boxes.

Metatron,
Thanks for the compliment. Coincidentally I pulled out my Tosuke and shaved with it just the other day after a couple of months of not shaving with it. Went pretty well. Got a good, not great, shave but with no rearranging of the epidermis. That's a win for me. I've gotten rid of a lot of nice razors in the last year, but I can't seem to let go of my shave ready Kamis. I love having them even when I don't use them.