Shapton 30K . . . anybody use it?

[dmcconnell]

I'm using Shapton to 16K and finishing on a CrOx strop and stropping on cotton and horsehide. I agree with the thoughts in this thread (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=150341) on this setup and find it to deliver super consistent results with smooth shaving, durable edges.

How many of you Shapton guys use a 30K? What does it add to the edge beyond the 16K + CrOx strop? It is an expensive stone that probably has you into Japanese Natural territory . . . anybody think it is worth its price tag?

 

[mparker762]

Some of us use them. I've been using one for three years or so. You don't need chrome oxide if you have one, assuming you've got a reasonable touch. Hones aren't as forgiving of sloppy technique as a pasted strop, after all.

Some guys prefer the Nakayama, personally I prefer the Shapton. But I've been using it a lot longer than my Nakayama...

As for whether it's worth the investment, that's hard to say. The glassstone is a lot cheaper than the 30k professional stone (which is something like $700), but pastes are awfully cheap after all.

 

[TstebinsB]

Some of us use them. I've been using one for three years or so. You don't need chrome oxide if you have one, assuming you've got a reasonable touch. Hones aren't as forgiving of sloppy technique as a pasted strop, after all.

Some guys prefer the Nakayama, personally I prefer the Shapton. But I've been using it a lot longer than my Nakayama...

As for whether it's worth the investment, that's hard to say. The glassstone is a lot cheaper than the 30k professional stone (which is something like $700), but pastes are awfully cheap after all.

I've purchased the Shapton Pro #30000 numerous times and it's never cost me more than $375 shipped.

 

[mparker762]

I've purchased the Shapton Pro #30000 numerous times and it's never cost me more than $375 shipped.

Sounds like prices have come down since I last looked at them. They were $700+ at one time. Needless to say they were pretty rare around these forums - I think Lynn may have had one, but I'm not sure. Once the glass stone 30k came out then Chris Moss and I both jumped at it and fell in love.

Back to the OP's point, the Shapton 30k is by no means the end-all to sharpness. The Nakayama, 30k, 0.5 micron chrome oxide, and 0.5 micron diamond will get to the same ballpark of sharpness if you do your part, as will any number of other hones like the coticule or escher. You can even go crazy and get paddles with 0.25 micron diamond or 0.1 micron diamond, or even 0.05 micron aluminum oxide. The pastes are cheaper, the stones are more esthetically pleasing, and probably more convenient if you're honing a lot of razors (though lapping film is even more convenient in this situation). But mostly it's just a matter of preference. Some guys just strongly prefer stones, or really like the "feel" of a certain stone (the coticule and nakayama seem to be particular favorites of these guys) and are willing to pay to indulge this preference. Some guys don't, and use the pasted paddles. I've got a variety of stones and paddles, and don't really seem to have any long-term preference one way or the other.

 

[jendeindustries]

There are 2 Shapton 30K's...

The Professional Series was $700 until recently. I think it is down to $500 now... The other is the Glass 30K (white), which is probably what the $375 is referring to.

I have both, and while they are different, they both produce amazingly smooth and clean edges under the scope, and on the face.

 

[professorchaos]

If I am going to drop that much money on a hone, it will be a Japanese natural. So to answer your question, no I have not used it and don't anticipate using it.

 

[Thebigspendur]

I have the glass one and agree it produces a very sharp edge but from the little I've used it the shaving edge reminds me of using.25 diamond. Kind of harsh feeling.

 

[TstebinsB]

Sounds like prices have come down since I last looked at them. They were $700+ at one time. Needless to say they were pretty rare around these forums - I think Lynn may have had one, but I'm not sure. Once the glass stone 30k came out then Chris Moss and I both jumped at it and fell in love.

There are 2 Shapton 30K's...

The Professional Series was $700 until recently. I think it is down to $500 now... The other is the Glass 30K (white), which is probably what the $375 is referring to.

I have both, and while they are different, they both produce amazingly smooth and clean edges under the scope, and on the face.

I meant the Professional #30000. I bought them two years ago for about $300 shipped from Japan. The prices have gone up a lot but you can still buy it from Takeshi of Metal Master for $395 shipped by Express Mail from Japan to the US. I wouldn't pay a penny more than $400 for it.

I've used it and it puts a great edge on razors but I wound up selling it. I never made more than 10 passes on it or else the edge would crumble. I didn't see the value in a stone that I used so sparingly.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I never made more than 10 passes on it or else the edge would crumble. I didn't see the value in a stone that I used so sparingly.

Heh... this is the exact experience I've had with my finer Jnat. I guess there's a point of refinement where the edges of these things just can't hold up anymore.

 

[DaveMartell]

I've used the Shapton 30ks on straights and while the image reflection is great the shaves weren't. I felt that the razors wanted to stick to the face. It's funny because both hones gave the same results on different razors.

For the money I say skip em.

 

[dmcconnell]

Thank guys, very helpful. I'll stick with my current setup.

 

[riooso]

I'm using Shapton to 16K and finishing on a CrOx strop and stropping on cotton and horsehide. I agree with the thoughts in this thread (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=150341) on this setup and find it to deliver super consistent results with smooth shaving, durable edges.

How many of you Shapton guys use a 30K? What does it add to the edge beyond the 16K + CrOx strop? It is an expensive stone that probably has you into Japanese Natural territory . . . anybody think it is worth its price tag?

Until about 3 weeks ago I used a 30K. My upper end progression was 16K Shapton, 30K Shapton, 0.25 diamond paste,0.1 micron film then 100 laps on the leather. I found this edge very smooth and long lasting. For me, what the 30K did is stabilize the bevel and make the it possible to get 3 or more shaves out of the same razor edge that I usually got. Before the 30K I used a 0.50 paste then the rest of the progression.

I was always trying to push the envelope of keenness and polishing the bevel. I come from the fringe group that thinks that everything after about 8K is just polishing the bevel, not making the razor more keen. The 30K just fit in to that way of thinking.

Japanese Naturals are a different league completely and for the last 3 weeks I have discovered that one can control the bevel polish and keenness independently of each other, very eye opening. Unless someone is willing to help you that is very informed with J-Nats you can get your clock cleaned. I was extremely lucky to have a member help me pick a stone that is a very nice stone yet reasonably prices. The Shapton route, for me was, very predictable and almost scientific. One is looking at the scratch pattern as one hones. J-Nats are not at all predictable and there are a lot of people who get lost in the world of J-Nats, they simply do not work for them. This is a very good reason for getting a 30K if that is the edge that you desire. It was very cook bookish for me.

Progressions and what you like when you are dealing with artificial stones is very much a personal thing. Some people very much like a very keen polished edge, some do not.


Take Care,
Richard

 

[kwigibocity]

Heh... this is the exact experience I've had with my finer Jnat. I guess there's a point of refinement where the edges of these things just can't hold up anymore.

I, too, have had this same experience with the white version of this hone.

Amazing lack of friction provided to the blade on the face, to me exactly as the only natural Japanese hone I've used with any regularity. Best I've ever felt bar none.

But even with sparing use, I felt like the edge condition deteriorated too rapidly for me to want to keep chasing the feeling you'd get from shave #1.

Chromium oxide after many other options is close enough for me and gives an edge which lasts much, much longer.

 

[Seraphim]

I have never used the Shapton 30k, so take my input for what it's worth.


If you plan on still finishing with chromox, I'd say the 30K is a complete waste of money, as the edge you will be left with will be determined by the chromox, not the Shapton 30k, in other words, you may as well not even use it.

It you want to shave direct off of the 30k, then it may have some benefit to you and what kind of finish you like on your razor.

 

[mparker762]

If you plan on still finishing with chromox, I'd say the 30K is a complete waste of money, as the edge you will be left with will be determined by the chromox, not the Shapton 30k, in other words, you may as well not even use it.

+1

Assuming you've done your job at the prior stages, the only hone that matters to your whiskers is the last one that touched that blade. And even that one only matters for a few days, after which the strop takes over in importance...

 

[jendeindustries]

I've been playing around with finishing on Hand American .25 micron Chromium Oxide and the 30K Pro.

It's a tough call... I am personally liking the 30K pro after the Chromium as my finisher. The Chromium Oxide leaves a very smooth shave, and under the scope, the edge is marvelous. I've been using the 10K Glass or 15K Pro, the Chromium Oxide, then the 30K pro and the edge is different - I dare say even better. The 30K Pro has an amazing consistency.

If anyone is interested in trying a razor honed this way, just shoot me a PM.

 

[Neil Miller]

I agree with Tom's findings - for me the consistency is the key thing in the equation.

Regards,
Neil

 

[Neurotopia]

I have never used the Shapton 30k, so take my input for what it's worth.


If you plan on still finishing with chromox, I'd say the 30K is a complete waste of money, as the edge you will be left with will be determined by the chromox, not the Shapton 30k, in other words, you may as well not even use it.

It you want to shave direct off of the 30k, then it may have some benefit to you and what kind of finish you like on your razor.

I had richmondesi do mine up on a 30k, I shaved with it a few times, and then I went back and CrOxed it to see the difference. The CrOx seemed to take a bit of the harshness off, and I actually liked it better. So for myself, there was no point in investing in a stone after my C12K. I don't mind the extra laps and the CrOx gives it just enough of that extra slice (although once it was almost too much!)

 

[riooso]

All of this really is just a personal preference issue. We in this forum have very different objectives and goals, for me it is just about the shave. That is is it! But that may be the worst disorder of them all! If you have not used a 30K, 0.25 paste, then 0.1 micron film progression then there is no way that one can tell you how smooth the shave is. The edge is extremely keen and polished but it is not for everyone, there are distinct disadvantages to keen highly polished edges along with the advantages.

I have sold a couple of razors and always ask if they would like to try such an edge and if accepted, to a man, there is a reply that it was indeed an excellent edge. Sorry I just do not agree that such treatment gives a HCS razor a delicate edge or one that is harsh after 100 laps on the leather. My Robert Williams and LeGrelot razors love it and I get that "first shave" keenness for over a dozen shaves with these razors. I will agree that Sheffield razor are not suited to this type of edge because the steel, although very excellent steel, just does not have the same physical properties with steel that has been tempered to something with a 62+ HRC rating. Shaving with them is just a different experience.

Something that I have learned recently when I started using Japanese Naturals is that I will, from that day forward, be careful what I hold as "truth" about honing. There is just to much to learn! I am coming off a J-Nat in which the razor requires absolutely no stropping for a buttery smooth shave, something I never thought I would say.

I would be very open to sharing a 30K, 0.1film edge with someone if they were so inclined.

Take Care,
Richard

 

[thirdeye]

I have never used the Shapton 30k, so take my input for what it's worth.


If you plan on still finishing with chromox, I'd say the 30K is a complete waste of money, as the edge you will be left with will be determined by the chromox, not the Shapton 30k, in other words, you may as well not even use it.

+1...and time...