Sending funds to B/S/T sellers.

[Laird]

It seems a good number of folks on our B/S/T like the idea of having the purchaser send them money through Paypal using the "send money to friends/family" selection. That way they don't have to pay a seller's fee. As long as the buyer doesn't mind being complicit in a lie to defraud a Ltd. Company of it's fees and being without buyer protection. Because when I send you your money, I am paying for a good or a service, we're not related, we're not "family", it's not a "gift" and I do want buyer protection. My recent attempt to make a purchase was met with objections to the amount received because it wasn't "friends/family/gift" So he wanted more money to make up for his "loss" due to having to pay those pesky seller's fees. I sent more money. Then came objections to the shipping address that was U.S. when I live in Canada. Even after explaining that I was doing this for his benefit to make shipping easier for him as a CONUS transaction and that my mailbox in your country is completely legit, I encounter more refusals to mail it there, unless I want it shipped to Canada for more postage cost yet again. I can't see how it could possibly be made any easier than, I've given the seller what he asked for in his own currency, made up the difference for his "loss" at not being able to get out of the seller's fees and only require that he post a package from within his own country to another address within in his own country. After cancelling the deal I get shorted on the refund because the poor guy had to waste a perfectly good envelope that he (somehow) can't re-address or use in any way now. And the seller claimed that if he had received his funds as Friends/Family/Gift then he wouldn't care and would would happily ship it anywhere because if it were lost it wouldn't matter. To him I guess, as the buyer would have no recourse with that Paypal selection.

Many of you know me, I've been an active member since 2013 with over 1000 posts. I've bought many, many razors on the B/S/T and have always selected "paying for goods and/or services". Never had a problem. On "CONUS only" ads I always contact the seller and ask if they'll mail to Canada if I pay the difference in postage cost. Almost never a problem, but when the seller prefers not to, I let them know I have a 100% legitimate U.S. mailbox at a place called "Ship Happens" in Sumas Washington State if that will work for them. Never had a problem with that one, as it will suit those particular sellers. I live close, walk across, pick it up, walk back to customs, declare it, go home.

But that last deal left a particularly bad impression with me. The seller was wary of being "scammed". That somehow, I'm suspect because my Paypal (Canada) and the shipping address (Sumas) could not be "verified". All ya gotta do is Google "Ship Happens" and the Sumas, Washington State address matching the one I provided is right there.

But keep an eye out for any sketchy moves on my part, I get rich by spending my time on shaving forums speculating in razors.....(shhh, don't tell anyone. I got a good thing goin' here). I calculated that I'm making about $2.17 (Cdn) per hour all in.

 

[dfoulk]

With the BST it is in the buyers best interest to pay with good and services as opposed to friends and family. The fee is basically what you're paying in case something goes wrong. It's your insurance that you're paying the extra fee for. That being said I have used the friends and family option with people I'm very familiar with knowing that I'm taking the risk. These are people with whom I'm good friends with. People that I've sent very expensive items for them to try and they've done the same for me. I might use this option for a very inexpensive item as well knowing that the risk is limited to the price I paid for the item. A $10 soap is quite a bit different than a $500 razor.

I don't feel as though I'm defrauding the company as I'm basically declining the insurance and taking the risk upon myself. I'm not paying the fee therefore I don't have access to their claims department if something goes wrong. They do offer that option and they do charge a fee depending on how you pay them. It might be being paid by your credit card company and not you but they will come out ahead. There are plenty of fees and they will find a way to make money. If someone trusts me enough to pay me via friends and family then great but I would never insist that a buyer pay me in this manner.

As a seller I sometimes find myself looking for a way to give a buyer a better deal. I type in that they can pay me via friends and family to save the fees and then I always delete it knowing that it's going to set off a red flag for them thinking that I'm somehow trying to scam them. It couldn't be further from the truth as I'm going to package the item and send it either way. It makes no difference to me how they paid. While my reputation here is worth more to me than any item, that is not the case with some people. I'm sure there are some that would throw away their account here in order to get to keep a $500 razor. This is why it's best to always use the goods and services option for your protection. Be smart about things. I would definitely use it myself if I were the buyer of an expensive item. It's always going to be buyer beware and they'll tell you that the people that get scammed are always the ones using friends and family.

Basically you're saying that you are gifting them money when you use that option. Whether they send the item or not after that, you have no recourse as what you stated you did was to give them a cash gift. The forum can't help you and either can PayPal. If the PayPal fees are a big deal to the seller then they can always state that the buyer pays the PayPal fees or charge a little more for the item to offset the fees. This should be stated up front as there shouldn't be any after the fact additional charges.

Most people here are good people who'll do the right thing however on a forum this large it's almost a certainty that not everyone will do the right thing. You will eventually get burned.

In terms of shipping to Canada if I'm including CONUS postage, I'll give up my time to go inside the post office and stand in line to fill out the customs for but, I'll usually charge the buyer only the difference in postage. If the buyer wanted the item shipped to an unverified address I can understand the concern. At that point though I'd probably look at their duration on the forum and post count to potentially offset my concern. The higher the item price the more likely I would be to scrutinize. Understanding the postage box situation definitely helps as I do have some Canadian friends that cross the border on occasion to buy specific items that are cheaper here, like gas and groceries for example. You're allowed to cross a specific number of times in a year and many that live close to the border do so on a fairly regular basis. Personally, I've been here a while so I do recognize your username here and wouldn't have questioned it myself.

Another thing to consider is insurance. Some of the items that we buy and sell here can get very expensive. As the seller you are responsible for the item until it's delivered. So if you sell a $500 razor be sure to insure it for full replacement value when you send it. From the buyer's side it's not their responsibility if your item gets lost in the mail. So in mailing an item without insurance you are taking a risk. I have had items lost on me and I have filed insurance claims. It does happen.

 

[Tester28]

Buying and selling should be with Paypal Goods & Services....this activates
protections for both buyer and seller....otherwise there's nothing if things
go wrong.

I price my items to be "all-inclusive"....they include exactly what the buyer
will pay to have the item delivered to his door. I also only ship to the address indicated by Paypal on the
transaction page....if you ship elsewhere...to the buyer's buddy for example, Paypal will not intervene
in the event of a dispute.

 

[Bakker1964]

In terms of shipping to Canada if I'm including CONUS postage, I'll give up my time to go inside the post office and stand in line to fill out the customs form . . .

I have shipped (admittedly) a few items to the US. Never had to fill out anything beyond declaring the nature of the item when paying the postage. Is it really that onerous a task on the US side? Genuinely curious, as many people make it sound like it is the worst thing ever . . .

Or, is it just a case of convenience?

 

[dfoulk]

I have shipped (admittedly) a few items to the US. Never had to fill out anything beyond declaring the nature of the item when paying the postage. Is it really that onerous a task on the US side? Genuinely curious, as many people make it sound like it is the worst thing ever . . .

Or, is it just a case of convenience?

I suspect it's more for taxation purposes in your country. It's a small declaration form stating the address of the recipient, an item description, a value, weather it's a purchase, gift, etc. Not very time consuming overall but it necessitates you standing in line to get the form instead of using the automated machines and being in and out of the post office much quicker. What it comes down to is it's a small inconvenience.

 

[OldSkoolMillennial]

I suspect it's more for taxation purposes in your country. It's a small declaration form stating the address of the recipient, an item description, a value, weather it's a purchase, gift, etc. Not very time consuming overall but it necessitates you standing in line to get the form instead of using the automated machines and being in and out of the post office much quicker. What it comes down to is it's a small inconvenience.

Can't you get the forms online?

 

[Tester28]

Its a form called CN-22... standard all over the world...takes a few seconds to fill and stick on the package.
I have to visit a counter at the post office anyway to have the item weighed and stamped.

I keep a stack of CN22 stickers at home and have the package ready before I visit the PO.

Never sent more than 10-15 minutes mailing stuff off.

 

[Bakker1964]

Thanks, guys. I have never experienced this. but then, most of what I have shipped is <$100.00 anyway.

 

[Acmemfg]

PayPal...opinions will vary. Tomes have been written about their “Buyer Protection Services”.
The abuses of the aforementioned “service” have been often documented. Yes it can happen and does. Basically all a buyer has to say is “I don’t want this”; PayPal will refute this claiming there must be a legitimate reason for having to issue a refund....uh huh.
Years back I sold a Wade & Butcher straight (clue #1, Wade and Butcher) to someone.
Sent many pictures and accurate description. Razor had just been professionally honed and a slight frown corrected. Razor shipped. Buyer wanted to return it.....after using it and advising it was a good shaver. Later, decides it wasn’t what he expected. First said it wasn’t the correct size (blade was advertised as 6/8..buyer acknowledged it was 6/8). Then started moaning about imaginary pitting (clue #2..recent professional honing and edge correction-no mention of any problematic pitting by honemeister) and other ridiculous issues which only started once I told him is was “item as described..no refunds”. I’m not a retail operation. I see a classic case of “Buyer’s Remorse”.
So...enter PayPal. He tells them he wants a refund because the razor was “old”!
Like there are NOS W&B razors flooding the market. PayPal refunds him without talking to me.
I decide phooey on PayPal....they turn the case into their Collection Agency. I start getting calls from some Rocco type guys...forget it. I decide it isn’t worth it.
Epilogue...The much maligned Wade & Butcher eventually found a home where it was loved and appreciated. The unhappy first buyer moved on.
Ironically...I have never had a problem sending items and using PayPal F&F. Go figure

 

[REV579]

@Laird - you are a scoundrel. LOL. Stand up guy. It does seem interesting that we want to pass any fees on to the seller when we are buying, but when we are selling, we want the buyer to pay all the closing costs. There is an obvious consistency present in this line of thought and behavior, but it’s not too flattering.

 

[Rrose Sélavy]

I have shipped (admittedly) a few items to the US. Never had to fill out anything beyond declaring the nature of the item when paying the postage. Is it really that onerous a task on the US side? Genuinely curious, as many people make it sound like it is the worst thing ever . . .

Or, is it just a case of convenience?

The difference can be huge. As stated above, using the automated machines in the post office to mail a domestic package means that I can sometimes be in and out within five minutes. When shipping internationally, one HAS to take it to a teller, which can mean being stuck in line for fifteen or twenty minutes. So it is often times more than a simple inconvenience.

 

[jesseix]

The difference can be huge. As stated above, using the automated machines in the post office to mail a domestic package means that I can sometimes be in and out within five minutes. When shipping internationally, one HAS to take it to a teller, which can mean being stuck in line for fifteen or twenty minutes. So it is often times more than a simple inconvenience.

Agreed. And if your PO is anything like the one closest to me, there is almost always just 1 person working (2 max), and not even an automated machine to offload the traffic. Total disaster.

 

[paintflinger]

I suspect it's more for taxation purposes in your country. It's a small declaration form stating the address of the recipient, an item description, a value, weather it's a purchase, gift, etc. Not very time consuming overall but it necessitates you standing in line to get the form instead of using the automated machines and being in and out of the post office much quicker. What it comes down to is it's a small inconvenience.

David, you can fill it out online on the USPS website.

 

[Rrose Sélavy]

David, you can fill it out online on the USPS website.

That's correct, but one still needs to wait in line to mail it. The automated machines will direct you to the counter if you say that the package is leaving the country.

 

[paintflinger]

That's correct, but one still needs to wait in line to mail it. The automated machines will direct you to the counter if you say that the package is leaving the country.

We don't have automated machines here. Didn't know it was a thing.

 

[dfoulk]

We don't have automated machines here. Didn't know it was a thing.

The automated machines are really nice. Put in your credit card, answer a few questions and out pops a label. Stick the label on the box, drop it in the bin and you're out of there while everyone else waits in the long line. Much quicker and much easier.

 

[garyg]

Used to be a Rule that BST transactions were to be Goods & Services, to demand otherwise is a violation of the Terms of Service, unless the rule has changed. So tell us (or a moderator) who the offender is ..

I have shipped stuff to Canada, but recently a Canadian buyer backed out when I wouldn't falsify the value of the item, after hinting strongly he wanted Friends & Family ..

At this point I won't sell or ship unless any offshore buyer pays all the extra fees, including insurance with tracked delivery

 

[Rrose Sélavy]

We don't have automated machines here. Didn't know it was a thing.

Really? I thought that they were in most post offices. Yeah, they speed things up a lot. That is as long as you aren't stuck behind someone that has never used the thing before!

 

[paintflinger]

Used to be a Rule that BST transactions were to be Goods & Services, to demand otherwise is a violation of the Terms of Service, unless the rule has changed. So tell us (or a moderator) who the offender is ..

I have shipped stuff to Canada, but recently a Canadian buyer backed out when I wouldn't falsify the value of the item, after hinting strongly he wanted Friends & Family ..

At this point I won't sell or ship unless any offshore buyer pays all the extra fees, including insurance with tracked delivery

Its a recommendation now, not a requirement.

 

[Rrose Sélavy]

Its a recommendation now, not a requirement.

I thought that it was recommended to use Goods and Services, but against the rules to demand that someone pay with Friends and Family. But then, I haven't been keeping up with the forum rules.