second round honing

[Hunter Bock]

Have a couple of vintage razors, a Clover and an Oxford, that I'm trying to get into shape. My first round of honing went from 800 - 10000 combining lapping film and corundum stones. No shaveable results. Before starting again I wanted to check forum wisdom. Should my next round of honing start at sub 800 grit? (What's a good starting grit for difficult blades?) Under 10X inspection the edges do not appear damaged & it's unlikely I've over-honed. My honing technique and materials worked quite well on a Wester Bros razor so I don't think these are issues.

Counsel on tips & tricks much appreciated.

 

[stone and strop]

You did not fully set the bevel.
Looking at the edge even with high magnification will not tell you if the bevel is set. You must test it.
Then proceed as normal.

 

[Hunter Bock]

You did not fully set the bevel.
Looking at the edge even with high magnification will not tell you if the bevel is set. You must test it.
Then proceed as normal.

Thanks -- can you elaborate?

 

[cugel]

A set bevel should easily shave arm hair

 

[steveclarkus]

Have a couple of vintage razors, a Clover and an Oxford, that I'm trying to get into shape. My first round of honing went from 800 - 10000 combining lapping film and corundum stones. No shaveable results. Before starting again I wanted to check forum wisdom. Should my next round of honing start at sub 800 grit? (What's a good starting grit for difficult blades?) Under 10X inspection the edges do not appear damaged & it's unlikely I've over-honed. My honing technique and materials worked quite well on a Wester Bros razor so I don't think these are issues.

Counsel on tips & tricks much appreciated.

If you search “the Method” and read all the material and follow the instructions precisely, you will be getting good edges in a week or two. Simple.

 

[Sdm84]

Honing eBay razors is a challenge. It is likely the razors have a frown, warp, heel problem or other issues. Learning in a blade that has such issues can be very discouraging.

If the razor doesn’t pass the shave test, the bevel wasn’t set as others have correctly said.

From time to time razors come on the BST in the 20-40 dollar range that are in good shape and good “practice” candidates.

I’m going to get on my soapbox a bit and give you my educated opinion...please resist the urge to “correct the geometry”. There are no shortage of videos out there showing you how to correct blades. Don’t do it. If a blade is that far gone it is not going to be easy to hone and will frustrate you. Likewise “restoring” a rusty relic. Save that rabbit hole until you have a firm grasp of the basics and can get consistently outstanding edges. Not just good edges or shaveable edges.

OK now- ask lots of questions and do edge swaps with people around or a little above your current skill you can learn a lot. Send your blade to an experienced honer for feedback. There are many ways to improve.

I will be glad to help you any way I can as others did for me when I started out. Just ask.

It’s a great and rewarding hobby enjoy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Biglo13]

10k should give you a good shave. Chances are you are missing something in ore finish levels. IF bevel is set properly I would not re hone at 800 or 1000 grit to conserve metal. previous posts provide good advice. sharpie test will give you tons of information!!

 

[Slash McCoy]

How did you set the bevel, and how did you verify that the bevel was set? You should never move up into the progression unless you absolutely know that the bevel is set. Don't rely on faith based honing and never for an instant think that it is okay to move up from the bevel setter without sure knowledge that the bevel is set. No edge can be worth shaving with, if it did not start with a good bevel.

 

[stone and strop]

Thanks -- can you elaborate?

As mentioned, if the bevel is fully set it will shave arm hairs at skin level. It will bite into the skin unless very careful. If you didn't do that then polished your way to finishing it had no affect on the edge at all.
There are many ways to tell if you have set it properly - magnification is NOT one of them.
Shaving arm hair, cherry tomato, grape or similar item. It will easily slice into the smooth skin side of these items along the entire edge.
I test the edge on the hair of the arm only. Its what I am used to.

 

[Hunter Bock]

To date: pretty sure I got the bevel set on the Clover -- Burr method, 500 reps each side, passed cherry tomato test. Then honing stones 3K, 6K, 8K & 12K. Then stropping no paste. There's some shaving activity when I tested the Clover, but not satisfactory (sub--electric shaver results).

Whither?

 

[stone and strop]

To date: pretty sure I got the bevel set on the Clover -- Burr method, 500 reps each side, passed cherry tomato test. Then honing stones 3K, 6K, 8K & 12K. Then stropping no paste. There's some shaving activity when I tested the Clover, but not satisfactory (sub--electric shaver results).

Whither?

This makes no sense.
Something wrong with the method or the razor.
From your original post - there is no reason to drop below 800 grit unless you have some serious metal to remove.
If you are not doing one stroke per side when finish setting the bevel then you are still left with the burr.
I do not think the burr method is a good idea anyway. As someone else had noted - why make a burr then struggle to get rid of it properly.
Learn to set the bevel without raising a burr and you will be further ahead.

 

[Hunter Bock]

Bevel setting was 500 strokes one side, then 500 the other with 1000 stone. Cherry tomato passed. After bevel setting I began honing at 3000. Can a faulty razor pass the bevel setting?

What are my alternatives to the burr method?

Thanks stone & strop.

 

[Slash McCoy]

If you have a bright light and a magnifying glass or a good loupe, you can visually verify the bevel. I like to use visual feedback along with the tactile feedback of the burr. The burr is more simple and straightforward and foolproof, IMHO but combining in the visual can be more efficient.

Usually 500 strokes per side is plenty on the 1k. Did you feel the burr? Did it go full length? If so, you were there. All you have to do after that is to carefully hone the burr off. After that, it is a good idea to visually verify. You may or may not need to go some more regular laps before moving up the grits. Sometimes with some stones and some steel and some personal technique, bits of burr break off badly and you get a bit of tooth much bigger than the stone would normally give you.

Remember that when honing the burr away, you need to gradually diminish the pressure and end up with just the weight of the razor. Be careful not to slap the razor on the hone. Never let the spine come up off the hone.

 

[stone and strop]

Bevel setting was 500 strokes one side, then 500 the other with 1000 stone. Cherry tomato passed. After bevel setting I began honing at 3000. Can a faulty razor pass the bevel setting?

What are my alternatives to the burr method?

Thanks stone & strop.

Single strokes per side. Test edge on arm hair at 800 or 1k whatever you use.
What you have done proves that the burr method is no more helpful and maybe detrimental to getting where you want to be. You are creating something that you must get rid of in order for things to work.
Why not just not create a burr in the first place? You still need to test in the same way to ensure it is set.
The edge after bevel set on 1k will feel really sharp on the pad of the finger and will bite into it right away.
As Slash says even at bevel setting, lighten up on the strokes and always doing alternating.

A faulty razor could pass the bevel test - sure. It would just not hold an edge long.
I don't think that's the issue though. I think you had a huge burr/fin that was never fixed along the way.
Magnification, even a loupe is handy to see if the new striations completely take over the previous ones right to the edge. You should be able to see a fin as well but you will not be able to see, even with a microscope, that the bevel is set. You MUST test it.

 

[Hunter Bock]

Single strokes per side can set the bevel, always alternate -- just honing on a 1K sets the bevel?

Possibly I'm lost. What is the technique difference in setting the bevel on a 1K and honing on a 1K? I have no preference for the Burr method but it is heavily promoted in this forum. Hence my attempt.

Thanks much stone & strop.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Basically there is the Burr Method, there is Visual Inspection, there is just going goin going until it shaves forearm hair or whatever easily, along the entire edge, and there is faith-based bevel setting, where you just KNOW it HAS to be set by now. And there are combinations and mixtures of the above.

I recommend the burr method. If you tried it and it didn't work for you, let's figure out where you went wrong and fix it.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Prerequisites: You totally understand that the spine must always remain in contact with the hone, you must never let the shoulder ride up on the hone, you should use a slight X stroke even on a wide hone, you use the weight of your arm to raise a burr, no more and no less, you know that you must use lighter pressure (weight of your hand is about right, diminishing slowly to weight of razor and a finger) and regular alternating laps to hone the burr off, and you know what a good bevel looks like under a bright light.

Step One. Raise a burr. Did you get a good burr along the entire length of the edge, on one side?

Step Two. Did you get a good burr along the entire length of the OTHER side, along the entire length of the edge?

Step 2.5 Are you SURE? Be sure before you move on to the next phase.

Step Three. Hone the burr off. Simple way is to just hone, using ordinary alternating laps. When you flip the razor, always keep the spine on the hone and flip the EDGE up and over. Start with about the weight of your hand and slowly reduce pressure as you go. At the end, it should shave forearm hair easily along the whole edge and the reflection of the bevel should be in one solid strip going all the way out to the edge.

Step Four. You SURE it looks and performs as it should?

Step Five. Bevel done, so start in on your progression.

 

[stone and strop]

Single strokes per side can set the bevel, always alternate -- just honing on a 1K sets the bevel?

Possibly I'm lost. What is the technique difference in setting the bevel on a 1K and honing on a 1K? I have no preference for the Burr method but it is heavily promoted in this forum. Hence my attempt.

Thanks much stone & strop.

Yes, you can just hone on a 1k and set the bevel.
Nobody hones on a 1k unless they are setting a bevel or removing very small chips or something similar.
Once everything is shaving well, most will drop back to at least 8k for refreshing an edge then progressing back up.
The burr method is heavily prompted on this forum, but only by a few members. Nobody that has been honing for any length of time raises a burr. Its a fail safe for new honers but it leads to problems as well, as you have seen.
I've never advocated it, no reason to. You will not use it in the future so why use it now? Learn to do without it.

 

[Hunter Bock]

Is alternating each stroke on a 1K bevel setting or just honing -- one Youtube honer says 40 reps each side using small circular strokes, then standard X honing alternating each stroke. Sound correct?

Or does bevel setting mean alternating each stroke as in honing, but with more pressure?

Thx.

 

[stone and strop]

Call it what you will but at that grit range you are removing steel - I call it setting or correcting the bevel.
"Honing" is generally considered to be after about 8k, more into the finishing stages. You are really sharpening at the early stages.
Listening to someone who says "do this many strokes" etc. is not worth listening to IMO. Razors, stones and the driver are all variables. Its done when its done. With practice you will know when that is.
I don't do circles. Either straight strokes or x strokes, your choice. I don't think circles are helping anyone's edges.
I'm quite sure those that use circles are finishing with straight or x strokes - so why do circles then?