Back to your original post, just a word of warning. Hard arks are amazing stones. But what they are not is forgiving. Lift the spine on one stroke and your going back a few steps to fix it. Not trying to discourage you from using it, just reiterating the need to be extra diligent with your technique.
How do I know I'm done with an Arkansas - second honing
- Thread starter kayvee
- Start date
Obviously, when the edge shaves well. But how the heck do you get there. A few ideas:
- Pay attention to how the edge feels on the stone with the goal of every mm on both sides feeling smooth with little to no resistance.
- Look at the edge using a loupe with the goal of consistency across the entire edge.
- Is the edge consistently undercutting the oil?
- Reaching the point where the edge really catches and cuts the hair on your forearm.
- The edge passes HHT after being stropped.
You should consider taking a break from the microscope to force yourself to focus on some of these other indicators.
And good question, BTW.
"Does this mean I need to go back to bevel set? OR does this mean I'm not as diligent on my higher grit stones?"
The 1k stria was never fully removed, as seen in photo 1 shows. Remove all the 1k stria with the next stone, 9um film in your case.
The 8k should be aggressive enough to remove it from the back of the bevel and polish the belly of the bevel or you can drop to the 9um.
Try the 8k with some diamond slurry. Once you have removed all the 1k stria then finish hone with a clean stone no slurry to restore the edge. If you hone with slurry on the 8k you can damage the edge, but not something that honing on a clean stone will not restore.
For now, drop the Ark and learn to make a shaving edge from just synthetic stones or film. Once you can make a shaving edge from the 8k, add finishing on 1um. That should give you a nice shaving edge.
Are you honing on the bench or hand held?
The 1k stria was never fully removed, as seen in photo 1 shows. Remove all the 1k stria with the next stone, 9um film in your case.
The 8k should be aggressive enough to remove it from the back of the bevel and polish the belly of the bevel or you can drop to the 9um.
Try the 8k with some diamond slurry. Once you have removed all the 1k stria then finish hone with a clean stone no slurry to restore the edge. If you hone with slurry on the 8k you can damage the edge, but not something that honing on a clean stone will not restore.
For now, drop the Ark and learn to make a shaving edge from just synthetic stones or film. Once you can make a shaving edge from the 8k, add finishing on 1um. That should give you a nice shaving edge.
Are you honing on the bench or hand held?
- Thread starter
- #24
“I’m trying to hone in hand.”
Well, there’s your problem!
No, really hand honing is when you want to minimize pressure. Learn to hone on the bench, you are not using enough pressure to grind the bevels flat and on the next grit remove ALL the previous bevel setting stria with each grit in the progression.
Learn on the bench, once you can consistently get a smoking 8k shaving edge, then experiment with other techniques and stones.
I have taught a lot of folks to hone, in person, one on one. Almost all of them were afraid of using enough pressure to set a bevel. The either had read the “Weight of the blade” mantra or hand honed.
Learn one technique, master it, then experiment.
Well, there’s your problem!
No, really hand honing is when you want to minimize pressure. Learn to hone on the bench, you are not using enough pressure to grind the bevels flat and on the next grit remove ALL the previous bevel setting stria with each grit in the progression.
Learn on the bench, once you can consistently get a smoking 8k shaving edge, then experiment with other techniques and stones.
I have taught a lot of folks to hone, in person, one on one. Almost all of them were afraid of using enough pressure to set a bevel. The either had read the “Weight of the blade” mantra or hand honed.
Learn one technique, master it, then experiment.
- Thread starter
- #26
Alright - lessons learnt from previous honing (amongst others)
- my hands are light on pressure,
- I wasn't able to maneuver the razor with one hand (so use bench honing),
- guide razor with the left hand over the toe,
- use plenty of ink (which I've been doing),
Things done differently
- bust out a brand new strip of 9um film
Mistakes made
- I let the stabilizer run over the film - that is scraping the film. Need to be careful here.
I went back to the 9um, and then the 8K. Here are the pics after the 8K. I see one spot near the toe (first picture far right) which didn't get honed properly. I need to think through what I could do differently.
Seems like everything else went well. Here are some pics - for validation (I know I know .... I'm going to shave with this edge tomorrow)
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Are you using slurry on your 8k?
The Fuji 8k is quite soft. A little too much pressure if combined with slurry will eat up your apex.
Don't use slurry if that is the case.
To me the apex looks rounded. You should not be able to see the apex at this magnification level. It is difficult enough using higher magnification.
The Fuji 8k is quite soft. A little too much pressure if combined with slurry will eat up your apex.
Don't use slurry if that is the case.
To me the apex looks rounded. You should not be able to see the apex at this magnification level. It is difficult enough using higher magnification.
- Thread starter
- #28
Yes I did use slurry. But I went over again with a clean home as well afterwards.
- Thread starter
- #29
Shave test: It felt good to shave with a blade that I honed - but I realized I was a little tentative in my strokes. I was able to completely shave two days of growth. The blade cut well but felt a little sharp at times. I'd normally shave ATG (2nd pass) on the neck - I skipped that in favor of a second WTG pass. No nicks, weepers etc. A little burning after alum - 3 spots; felt minimal frankly and maybe due to my technique. Mango (my cat) was constantly needing my attention during the shave - that didn't help either 
I think I should try to shave one more day with the same edge before moving on to the HBA.
I think I should try to shave one more day with the same edge before moving on to the HBA.
Still not enough. Stay on the 8k until all the deep stria are gone and the edge is straight, no chips.
Looks like large chips in photo 1 on the right side. Lots of deep stria and chippy edge in all the photos, the last photo when enlarged shows a very chippy edge.
The Ark will not improve that edge. Diamond slurry the 8k and stay on it with a little pressure, until all the stria are gone. Then wash the stone and stay on it until the edge is chip free and laser straight.
The Ark is a polisher, it will not remove enough steel to bring the bevels to meeting.
If you cannot shave ATG comfortably the razor is not keen enough. You have a lot of micro chips at the edge that must be removed.
Looks like large chips in photo 1 on the right side. Lots of deep stria and chippy edge in all the photos, the last photo when enlarged shows a very chippy edge.
The Ark will not improve that edge. Diamond slurry the 8k and stay on it with a little pressure, until all the stria are gone. Then wash the stone and stay on it until the edge is chip free and laser straight.
The Ark is a polisher, it will not remove enough steel to bring the bevels to meeting.
If you cannot shave ATG comfortably the razor is not keen enough. You have a lot of micro chips at the edge that must be removed.
- Thread starter
- #31
A thick 8K diamond slurry (like cream) should get that out easily. It is an aggressive stone. Keep the slurry wet, leveling the stone make it much easier to keep slurry and water on the stone. I hone on a Steelex stone holder on a plastic food tray and shim the tray with 2, strips of 6mm yoga mat.
I once removed 2 large chips and bevel set a razor with a 12k Super Stone in about 80 circles and 206 half laps. Google (12K Chip Removal/Bevel Setting).
Slurry will make these stones more aggressive but damage the edge, so once the stria is removed, wash the stone and reset the edge without slurry.
I once removed 2 large chips and bevel set a razor with a 12k Super Stone in about 80 circles and 206 half laps. Google (12K Chip Removal/Bevel Setting).
Slurry will make these stones more aggressive but damage the edge, so once the stria is removed, wash the stone and reset the edge without slurry.
- Thread starter
- #33
Try the 1k if it is not making black swarf in a couple laps just add 400 slurry. If you feel the slurry smoothing out, not cutting add more slurry or rinse off the stone and make new slurry.
Mark a line from the chip to the spine, use colored sharpie so the chip is easy to locate without magnification, a quick look.
Mark a line from the chip to the spine, use colored sharpie so the chip is easy to locate without magnification, a quick look.
This is why I touched up my razor after every shave when I first started honing and most of the time I still do. Each time I put razor to finishing stones it's just polishing and straightening the edge. I'll admit that I've never looked at one under a microscope or loupe but I got a 200 year old magnifying glass that let's me see well enough but usually I go by touch. Those edges just get better every time, even with the same stone. Most coticules can be pushed way farther than most people give them because you can keep refining them with the right touch and oil/lather. Arks are three same, if fun this test with knives a lot too. Weird stuff, I don't know any of the science.
- Thread starter
- #36
Learnings:
1. I'm still not using enough pressure
2. Use White light (not warm light) to observe razor under loupe. I believe I can now make out the chips at the edge in such conditions
@H Brad Boonshaft
I tried 1000 slurry a couple of times. Not satisfied. So tried 400 slurry on the 8k stone. Seemed to have gotten rid of the chips. However, if I understand the commentary about earlier pics, I believe I still have deep stria. Can you confirm?
If so, am I using too much pressure? Not enough pressure? Not enough time?
1. I'm still not using enough pressure
2. Use White light (not warm light) to observe razor under loupe. I believe I can now make out the chips at the edge in such conditions
@H Brad Boonshaft
I tried 1000 slurry a couple of times. Not satisfied. So tried 400 slurry on the 8k stone. Seemed to have gotten rid of the chips. However, if I understand the commentary about earlier pics, I believe I still have deep stria. Can you confirm?
If so, am I using too much pressure? Not enough pressure? Not enough time?
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- #37
- Thread starter
- #38
Just stropped and shaved on the new edge posted at #36 above. Completed my usual 2.5/3 pass shave including ATG on the neck. Got a DFS, though I felt the blade was sharp at times. I could use the entire blade (well almost... does anyone really ever use the heel?) including the toe which had troubled me earlier. Couple of irritations but no weepers, nicks etc...
Like I said - a DFS. I should try and stop smiling
Like I said - a DFS. I should try and stop smiling
The edge looks much better. You can load the photo in a photo editor and enlarge it further to zoom into specific spots, the edge.
Yes, there are still some deep stria, when you use a thick slurry and circles you will get some deep stria, circles can also impact the edge. Hard to say if the stria in the photos is bevel setting stria or from slurry.
The goal is to get the bevels flat and or remove deep stria with circles and slurry. Once that has been achieved, then another series of straight or X strokes will remove all the circle slurry stria, (random angled or horizontal stria) and bring the bevels back to meeting fully.
A simple way is to use Ax Method half laps, I do 2 sets of 10, then single set of 5,3,2, and single finish laps. If that does not remove all the stria or straighten the edge do another set of 10,5,3,2, and single laps.
Once all the stria is removed and the edge is straight, no chips, (look straight down on the edge with magnification, any shiny spots are chips or where bevels are not meeting), then wash the stone and razor, strop on linen and do light X laps on a clean stone.
Now strop and test shave.
It is not so much clear water, but a clean stone.
Yup, I shave with the heel and toe all the time. If you have any issues ATG, keenness can be improved, aggressive edge is usually a micro chipped edge.
Yes, there are still some deep stria, when you use a thick slurry and circles you will get some deep stria, circles can also impact the edge. Hard to say if the stria in the photos is bevel setting stria or from slurry.
The goal is to get the bevels flat and or remove deep stria with circles and slurry. Once that has been achieved, then another series of straight or X strokes will remove all the circle slurry stria, (random angled or horizontal stria) and bring the bevels back to meeting fully.
A simple way is to use Ax Method half laps, I do 2 sets of 10, then single set of 5,3,2, and single finish laps. If that does not remove all the stria or straighten the edge do another set of 10,5,3,2, and single laps.
Once all the stria is removed and the edge is straight, no chips, (look straight down on the edge with magnification, any shiny spots are chips or where bevels are not meeting), then wash the stone and razor, strop on linen and do light X laps on a clean stone.
Now strop and test shave.
It is not so much clear water, but a clean stone.
Yup, I shave with the heel and toe all the time. If you have any issues ATG, keenness can be improved, aggressive edge is usually a micro chipped edge.
So, once you can consistently get an edge to this point, there is still a lot of room for edge improvement.
That is why we tell new honers, if you like your edges now, a year from now your edges will be much better. From here it is all the little things that perfect the shaving edge.
You can shave very well from an 8k edge, add some Chrome Oxide and you have a smoking 20k edge.
Now that you have a good shaving edge, here is where your Arks comes in. Arks are very stone face dependent. Your Ark will improve or degrade your 8k edge depending on how the Ark is finished.
If it degrades it, you need to re surface the Ark face and take it to 600 grit, lap the other side smooth/flat and take it to 1k, then burnish with a large flat carbon steel knife, plane blade or chisel until glass smooth. Now you have a dual grit Ark finisher. Try it again on a pristine 8k shaving edge.
An Ark should polish the edge, a few laps on the Ark every few days will keep you shaving well for a long time.
Good work, enjoy. There is shaving, and there is, SHAVING.
That is why we tell new honers, if you like your edges now, a year from now your edges will be much better. From here it is all the little things that perfect the shaving edge.
You can shave very well from an 8k edge, add some Chrome Oxide and you have a smoking 20k edge.
Now that you have a good shaving edge, here is where your Arks comes in. Arks are very stone face dependent. Your Ark will improve or degrade your 8k edge depending on how the Ark is finished.
If it degrades it, you need to re surface the Ark face and take it to 600 grit, lap the other side smooth/flat and take it to 1k, then burnish with a large flat carbon steel knife, plane blade or chisel until glass smooth. Now you have a dual grit Ark finisher. Try it again on a pristine 8k shaving edge.
An Ark should polish the edge, a few laps on the Ark every few days will keep you shaving well for a long time.
Good work, enjoy. There is shaving, and there is, SHAVING.
