How do I know I'm done with an Arkansas - second honing

[kayvee]

This is my second honing - I honed a Bear razor - it's really beat up and I had changed the scales on it. It lacks a lot in the looks department.

Now that I have a question, I wish I had taken pictures with the scope along the way

Bevel set on Shapton 1500 (lapped with 400 grit) - circles, Ax, X strokes - I jointed at least once
9u film - circles, X strokes
Naniwa Fuji 8k (lapped 400 grit) - circles, half strokes, X strokes - used some pressure
Naniwa Fuji 8k (lapped 1000 grit) - jointed, X strokes - lesser pressure, final laps under running water
1u film - some circles - but mostly X strokes

So far so good. I used ink, periodically checked under the scope and magnifier - to make sense of how things look under both. It helped with the honing as well - I could fix a couple of issues along the way. I still can't seem to get the heel area honed properly. The toe on one side needed a rolling stroke - I had forgotten this on one of the stones and the scope helped me catch it. Long story short, The scope showed even striations, lower grit stria removed (mostly - ngl) - but felt good about the honing session. I know I can do better in the middle grits...

Instead of using copy paper and wrapping up - I now figured I'd try out the HBA (Surgical Black). So I oiled it up (50/50 mineral oil+ mineral spirits - premixed) and went at it for say a 100+ (maybe more) laps - about 10 minutes or so. Just X strokes - rolling X on one side for the toe.

I stropped and shaved - the shave itself felt fine. The toe could be sharper, I kept going back with the middle part of the razor particularly over some areas under the chin. My rolling stroke needs work.

While the shave felt good, under the magnifier, the edge now looks like an 8K edge. I'm attaching pics under the scope - but under bright light I don't see what I see with the magnifier.

How do I know I'm done with an HBA?

 

[Wid]

“While the shave felt good”

Stop right there, the shave was good. Next time out take the razor back on the Ark for another hundred and see if you feel a difference. With natural stones you don’t get that same scratch pattern as a synthetic. Get used to what it feels like first then take a look.

When I do a coti edge followed by another natural or just finish with the coti I don’t even look at the edge past a bevel set. It’s all in how the edge performs and feels on the stone.

 

[JPO]

This is my second honing - I honed a Bear razor - it's really beat up and I had changed the scales on it. It lacks a lot in the looks department.

Now that I have a question, I wish I had taken pictures with the scope along the way

Bevel set on Shapton 1500 (lapped with 400 grit) - circles, Ax, X strokes - I jointed at least once
9u film - circles, X strokes
Naniwa Fuji 8k (lapped 400 grit) - circles, half strokes, X strokes - used some pressure
Naniwa Fuji 8k (lapped 1000 grit) - jointed, X strokes - lesser pressure, final laps under running water
1u film - some circles - but mostly X strokes

So far so good. I used ink, periodically checked under the scope and magnifier - to make sense of how things look under both. It helped with the honing as well - I could fix a couple of issues along the way. I still can't seem to get the heel area honed properly. The toe on one side needed a rolling stroke - I had forgotten this on one of the stones and the scope helped me catch it. Long story short, The scope showed even striations, lower grit stria removed (mostly - ngl) - but felt good about the honing session. I know I can do better in the middle grits...

Instead of using copy paper and wrapping up - I now figured I'd try out the HBA (Surgical Black). So I oiled it up (50/50 mineral oil+ mineral spirits - premixed) and went at it for say a 100+ (maybe more) laps - about 10 minutes or so. Just X strokes - rolling X on one side for the toe.

I stropped and shaved - the shave itself felt fine. The toe could be sharper, I kept going back with the middle part of the razor particularly over some areas under the chin. My rolling stroke needs work.

While the shave felt good, under the magnifier, the edge now looks like an 8K edge. I'm attaching pics under the scope - but under bright light I don't see what I see with the magnifier.

How do I know I'm done with an HBA?View attachment 1676578View attachment 1676579View attachment 1676580View attachment 1676581View attachment 1676582View attachment 1676583

If you are only doing edge leading strokes you don't need to joint the edge after your Naniwa Fuji 8k. It is almost impossible to create any edge artifacts on this relatively soft stone.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

A good progression, except circles at the higher grits. Circles are for removing steel at bevel set or the first laps on the mid grit progression to remove the deep bevel setting stria.

At 8k you should have a pristine straight edge and near mirror bevel,( no deep stria touching the edge). Circles add random stria and potential micro chippy edge.

10k to 1um film should be a sideways move in terms of finish, (edge, and bevel), drop the film from the progression. The 10 k should be a nice jumping point to a natural. Arks require a pristine edge unless you are prepared to do a lot of laps.

Under magnification, (photo editor) the edge looks a little chippy.

Do as Rick suggest, just do more laps on the Ark to further refine. This will tell you a lot about your Ark and its finish, (test shave). Arks are stone face finish dependent. I finish one side to 600 wet & dry and the other to 1k W&D and burnished for a dual grit Ark progression.

Then try a super light joint, flat on the stone face, on the 10k, tape the spine with another layer of tape and reset the edge in 10-20 light X laps. Now go back to the Ark and do another 10-20 lite X laps. You just want to make a micro bevel and straight edge.

When you finish on an Ark, the edge must be pristine and super straight, so a bit more edge prep, straighter edge will help .

You are probably very close to a smoking edge. At this stage it is the little thing that can make a difference. Simplifying your progression, especially finish can just complicate the finish. You are using 3 finishers.

I have been experimenting with the 10k a lot lately with impressive results. It is aggressive and can finish or pre finish to a high level, a “Film killer”? Maybe.

Do not be afraid to joint a finished edge, (8k or higher). Once the bevels are flat and you remove microns by jointing, the bevels will come back to meeting in a few laps. A finish Ark may be a bit more depending on the stone’s finish.

Micro bevels can tell you a lot about your technique and are easy to make and undo. Just remember it should be micro, it does not take many laps to make a micro bevel. Ink the bevel to see just how little it takes.

If you make a micro bevel, it is easy to polish, compared to the whole bevel.

Compare the more laps Ark edge to the 10k micro bevel and Ark polish. They should shave a bit differently. If the 10k is an improvement, you will know that the issue is not finishing the 10k edge, prior to the Ark.

You are close, good work.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“If you are only doing edge leading strokes you don't need to joint the edge after your Naniwa Fuji 8k. It is almost impossible to create any edge artifacts on this relatively soft stone.”

True, but when you are learning, try everything and test shave to find out for yourself.

If you can benefit from jointing at high grits, depends on what the edge looks like.

I often Joint a finished edge on an Jnat with misty slurry, strop on firehose linen and reset the edge in 3-5 laps on the Jnat to finish.

No harm to jointing a finished edge, yes you may be wasting microns of steel, Oh well.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Yeah, skip the 1μ film after the Fuji, it's superfluous.

Depending on how you surfaced your ark, the bevel may not look as pretty as the edge of the Fuji, but that is not the point. It will take some experience to get the feel of when the ark is "done" (sometimes I'm still not sure) but the good news is you aren't going to hurt anything by doing more laps. Unless you have a bad stroke and lift the spine. Don't do that.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

When you go to the Ark you are just polishing the bevel and further straightening the edge. If your 10k edge is good, Straight, no burr, and no remaining low grit stria on the bevel near the edge, you just want to polish the bevel.

A micro bevel can be polished in a handful of laps 10-20, if you are polishing the whole bevel, it will take more laps on the Ark and as said a lot depends on how your ark is set up, what you finished the Ark on and to what level. For example, a 600-grit finished Ark may be faster than a 1k and burnished stone face.

Once an Ark is flat and finished the stone face can easily be changed in a matter of minutes with Wet and Dry or India or Silicone Carbide stones. You will need to experiment with the different finishes to find one that suits your honing technique.

The good news is, at this level of finish if you are not happy with the edge for what ever reason, all you need to do is joint the edge straight 1-3 lite strokes and reset the edge on the 10k with a handful of laps.

Surprisingly the Shehiro is also stone face, finish dependent, which is why they give you two finishing stones.

Today, I finished a razor, (today’s flea market find, a $5 Carl Monkhouse C’mon, it has some pitting) on the 10K. I had lapped the 10k clean with a 1200 Atoma. As I was doing finish laps on the clean 10k, I could see a stria pattern on the stone as the light black swarf filled the tiny groves on the white stone, where the Atoma cut into the stone face and left a visible uniform stria pattern. The edge of the C’mon was straight, but a bit Micro chippy. I had planned to finish the razor on a Jnat so was not too concerned about how the stone was finished at the time.

I re-finished the 10k under water with the White 3k finishing stone, (I keep a plastic shoe box in the sink for soaking stones and rinsing them off). Finishing the stone under water prevents the 3k slurry stone from sticking to the 10k. I also rounded all the corners of the 3k stone to prevent gouging and keep the corners from getting sharp.

I then did another set of finish laps on the 10k, the visible stria on the stone face was gone, and the edge micro chipping laser straight. The razor was very keen and shaved well off the 10k and stropped well on linen and leather.

So, make sure the 10k is properly lapped flat and clean, the corners rounded or beveled, and the stone face lapped smooth with the White 3k slurry/finishing stone. Apparently the 10k Shehiro is stone face, finish dependent, who knew?

 

[Pack line]

Seems a little over complicated. Especially in the beginning, keep it simple. No need for all the different strokes. They have their place but rolling x strokes work. Should be able to shave off an 8k. Get a shaving edge of the 8k then go to the ark.

 

[David]

Sounds like you’re close on that razor. I’d do like Rick said, just shave with that edge for a while and go back to the Ark for a touch up. If your technique is good it’s hard to over hone on a hard Ark.

 

[Gamma]

If you like your shave then that's what matters.

Looking over the process - the progression is excessively complex for no good reason.

Personally, going by what I can see in the striations, I think is that, at least, your midrange work needs refinement.
I'm not a fan of circles or joining. Circles for early work maybe, after the initial ground work no. They add striations going in directions that do not help and can possibly hinder. Yes, it's true.

Joining, jointing, whatever you want to call is, it's for sharpening chisels, not razors. If you are creating burrs to the degree that you need to remove them with that process, I'd suggest fixing whatever it is that is causing the distractions in the first place because they shouldn't be there. Proper razor honing does not create burrs that need to be joined.

There is literally no point in dulling an edge that is being refined. And at some point, the next stone might not overcome the truncations. Joining is a technique to remove an issue. Just don't create issues. Proper honing through progressively finer and finer grits while using x-strokes eliminates apex issues.

Seriously - keep it simple. There is no need to complicate the process and adding complications will not make the process or the edge any better. Learn proper x strokes, pressure, rolling xs, etc - and there is no need for parlor tricks, magic bullets, and fancy pants snake oil wizardry.

Set the bevel so you can manage a shave with it. Keep setting a bevel until you can do that.
If you can't do that, you're not there. If you can manage a shave, you're there or very close.

Hone normally. X-strokes, learn to roll, learn to roll consistently. That is what to focus on.


It's hard to judge edges via reflected light pix that aren't too sharp. But the bevel faces don't look like the mid range was done well and the condition of the apex is suspect. If that is a finished edge, after your Ark, I'd say the finish could be more consistent but you'd need better mid-range work to get a better polish.

Not saying it's a bad edge, just saying it looks like the work could be refined further and doing so could possibly render a better edge/shave.

Can't tell you how many times people have messaged me asking about their 'finish' when they need to work on their 'start' instead.
Most sharpness and keen-ness is developed and made possible by spot-on ground work, figure 1k-5k or thereabouts.
Nail the foundation and THE edge can/will appear.

 

[kayvee]

Under magnification, (photo editor) the edge looks a little chippy.

If your 10k edge is good, Straight, no burr, and no remaining low grit stria on the bevel near the edge, you just want to polish the bevel.

Should be able to shave off an 8k. Get a shaving edge of the 8k then go to the ark

Personally, going by what I can see in the striations, I think is that, at least, your midrange work needs refinement.

I agree. I noted as much in my OP -

I know I can do better in the middle grits...

So - I went back to the Fuji 8k, lapped with the 1k diamond plate and kept going with rolling X laps. Because of the loading, I lapped in between as well. I finally finished to my satisfaction. Would like to confirm if they are indeed good enough. Here are the pics. Do these look good?

 

[Gamma]

If you are loading your 8k then your early work was insuffiicient. When the groundwork is done well I wont need more than 15-25 passes on an 8k snd there is zero loading. A few light wisps of swarf maybe, but no loading.
The mid work I was referring to earlier is the pre-8k work. Apex condition can/will suffer until it’s ironed out Heavy swarf on an 8k indicates a lack of refinement from previous stages.

 

[kayvee]

Maybe I should post a picture of that I think is “loading”. Note that you’re making a distinction between loading and light swarf, I’m not sure it’s loading.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Parts of the bevel and edge looks good others have issues.

Much better photos reveal that you have not flattened the bevel completely back of the bevel, (photo 1) and lots of deep stria on the belly to the edge in this same photo. An 8k Fuji bevel should be near mirror, no deep stria. If the bevels are not FULLY flat, you are likely not honing to the edge with each lap.

Photo 3 shows a very chipped edge, here again a Fuji edge should be laser straight. If you are honing on swarf the bevel is not making full contact with the stone and is impacting (chipping) the edge with each stroke.

If you are getting a lot of thick swarf, you are not using enough water. Use a squirt bottle in place of a spray and level your bench or stone holder so the water stays on the stone. Try a Scotch Brite sponge to remove the swarf. Once it sticks to the stone you will need a slurry stone or diamond plate to remove it completely. The Shehiro nagura should be good for cleaning the 8K.

Swarf comes off with rinsing, loading is like a black plack that sticks to the stone and will not come off rinsing, it must be abraded off.

I do not think you are using enough pressure at each grit to remove the previous stria.

Fuji is aggressive enough to flatten the bevels and refine the edge. The razor steel does have some issues but should hold an edge. It is much easier to learn to hone on a razor in good condition and eliminate the razor steel as a potential problem.

 

[Pack line]

I know it has been said before but, keep it simple. 1500, rolling x strokes, set the bevel. Some pressure but not enough to flex the blade. Use sharpie on the bevel if needed to make sure your rolling is hitting the entire bevel. Go until you can shave off the 1500. Then go to the next stone or film, do the same thing, pressure will be less as you progress to higher grits. Shaving off each step of the progression will give you an idea what is happening to the edge. The more you hone the more you will develop muscle memory and feel. Enjoy the process, it is supposed to be fun. Don't be discouraged if you don't get a great edge the first time, or the second.

 

[David]

you have not flattened the bevel completely back of the bevel,

Does the back of the bevel matter? Asking for a friend….

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Does the back of the bevel matter?”

Not to the edge, a new shaving edge can be created with a micro bevel and not touch the whole bevel, except the OP is a new honer trying to learn and asking for critique. So, that the back of the bevel is not honed fully in random spots, indicates technique issue and the bevel angle is not consistently flat.

On the same side there are deep bevel setting stria reaching the edge and a chippy edge, all 3 indicate that it is a technique problem, probably not enough pressure or sufficient laps to remove the deep stria and make the bevels flat from heel to toe.

To the OP, 90% of honing is interpreting what you see on the bevel and edge. If there is an issue, find out why and eliminate that issue. The rest is just rubbing steel on rocks.

 

[kayvee]

Does the back of the bevel matter? Asking for a friend….

Frankly, it took me this exchange to understand what was even being said. Thank you!

Does this mean I need to go back to bevel set? OR does this mean I'm not as diligent on my higher grit stones?

 

[kayvee]

Swarf comes off with rinsing, loading is like a black plack that sticks to the stone and will not come off rinsing

I believe I'm having only swarf in that case. Either it comes off with rinsing or I just rub my hand on the surface under running water and it runs away.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Frankly, it took me this exchange to understand what was even being said. Thank you!

Does this mean I need to go back to bevel set? OR does this mean I'm not as diligent on my higher grit stones?

Probably just your midrange, whatever precedes your 8k.

And, I don't mean this at all in a snarky way, I think you should spend more time honing and shaving and less time looking at pictures.