Questions re: AR-15 ammunition

[sfeile]

First, good on you sir for training. That is the most important part of any firearm. Remember, you aren't going to have a lot of time. Your firearm needs to be a part of you so you can concentrate on threat level, target identification, and family etc... in the area.

And I would also agree to stay away from steel cased ammunition. It is dirtier, corrosive, doesn't expand/contract well, and the lacquer can build up and stick as well. It is also hard on extractors and chambers leading to premature wear.

I have an H&K usp .40 that is pushing the 75,000 round mark right now. Early on I was given 200 rounds of steel cased ammunition to try. In the first box of 50 brand new, non-surplus steel cased ammunition, 3 cases split and hung in the chamber. I gave the rest back with a "no thank you". These are the only rounds other than a few of my own re-loads I screwed up the crimp on that I have ever had a problem with in this pistol.

In an IDPA match where I used to shoot a lot, one of the shooters had a Beretta brigadier and had seven cases split and not eject in a 70 round match. Even setting aside the fact that this is absolutely no good when you NEED the firearm to function, think of the abuse this puts on the chamber and extractor.

 

[tromboneliness]

FYI, picked up the rifle yesterday. Barrel is stamped 5.56 NATO 1:9.

sfeile, defense training is not only mandatory in my mind, but some of the most fun you can have with a firearm. I can put holes in paper all day but it doesn't begin to cover home defense.

We'd both like to do a Project Appleseed session--it sounds like something that would get my rifle marksmanship back in gear.

 

[dsonyay]

For shooting at the range .. Plinking.. I'm shooting any 5.56mm ammo I can get for under .30 cents per round.

Right now, at volume pricing there's plenty under that. Try sgammo.com or palmetto state armory. They often have sales of good milspec 55gr or 62gr for under 30cpr (that's 6 bucks per 20 rd box). I buy 1000 at a time to save loads of money. Sometimes I do a group buy with a couple friends and we save so much money.

Another superb round is the .223 Wolf Gold. It is a brass cased 55gr/fmj round that is an excellent buy at about 28cpr. Made in Taiwan not Russia. Sgammo sells it quite often. You need to buy at the case to get this price. Shipping is low.

For SD, any of those rounds will do. Who wants to get hit by a 55gr fmj? No one. These rounds do big damage especially under 100 yards where most all will fragment.

Also, any 55 or 62 gr soft point will do very well for Self Defense. This round performs well on white tail deer.

 

[accunlmtd]

There is an old saying, your handgun is to give you time to get to your rifle. That said, unless you are VERY proficient with a hand gun (read that as LOTs of training, and even more practice, in defensive scenarios...not plinking on the range), a light rifle such as an AR is the way to go for home defense.
Ditto on a tactical flashlight on the barrel. A good Tac-Light will cause temporary blindness on the perp. That gives you two advantages, One is time, secondly, it also tells the perp that you mean business and to take his trade elsewhere. The last thing you want to do is have to pull the trigger, but it is there as a last resort.
Ammo.... for home defense, any of the ammo loaded for varmint shooting, they open very fast. Accuracy at 15 ft is of no matter.
Please take a home defense class (or two or three), from different instructors. Consider it good insurance.
If the class has a law enforcement officer and an attorney as part of the training...EVEN BETTER. You absolutely need to know how to deal with the aftermath of a shooting (like you WILL probably be arrested and will spend time in jail pending bail), and what to say (OR NOT SAY).

With respect...
Al in Colorado

 

[sfeile]

For a defense ammo, I would recommend hornady TAP or winchester PDX1. Not that either of these perform any better than many others on the market, but the both say specifically on the box they are for defense.

Let me first state that I AM NOT A LAWYER, but there is a good chance if you (hopefully never) ever have to use it, it will be brought against you in court, and you will end up in court, if you use a "hunting" round that was "intended to kill".

This is only a recommendation, so take it however you will, but it is a very good idea to help CYA.

 

[accunlmtd]

For a defense ammo, I would recommend hornady TAP or winchester PDX1. Not that either of these perform any better than many others on the market, but the both say specifically on the box they are for defense.

Let me first state that I AM NOT A LAWYER, but there is a good chance if you (hopefully never) ever have to use it, it will be brought against you in court, and you will end up in court, if you use a "hunting" round that was "intended to kill".

This is only a recommendation, so take it however you will, but it is a very good idea to help CYA.

Excellent point sir, that was why I recommended a home defense class that includes sections taught by law enforcement and lawyers (the classes that my club has, includes both).
this very serious business, and one must be prepared for all the steps...before, during, and after. It will not be pleasant, and taking a life, any life, even one of a dirt bag will have consequences.

al in colorado

 

[sfeile]

Excellent point sir, that was why I recommended a home defense class that includes sections taught by law enforcement and lawyers (the classes that my club has, includes both).
this very serious business, and one must be prepared for all the steps...before, during, and after. It will not be pleasant, and taking a life, any life, even one of a dirt bag will have consequences.

al in colorado

This is another reason I prefer a handgun over an AR for defense. The press and everyone are so worried about the "black/assault rifles" and have vilified them so bad, it is another potential to hang yourself in court.

 

[williaty]

This is another reason I prefer a handgun over an AR for defense. The press and everyone are so worried about the "black/assault rifles" and have vilified them so bad, it is another potential to hang yourself in court.

From all the research I've done into the cases where self defense has gone to trial, and from all experts like Ayoob and the lawyers that speak at the training here, it doesn't matter. If the cops or DA wants you to go down for daring to defend yourself, you're going down, good shoot or not, using a pink pistol or an AR-15 because they've made a political decision, not a realty-based one. If the cops and DA believe in the right to self defense and you were legally justified in the use of lethal force, then it, again, doesn't matter what you used to defend yourself.

The one and only thing I've ever seen or heard of making a difference in court is using reloads vs factory ammo. The forensics experts will draw conclusions, and explain those conclusions to the jury, based of testing of factory ammo. If your reloads behave differently, such as in the amount of powder residue, you could be SOL. The case in question was a man who had made low-recoil reloads for his wife. When she shot herself, he was charged with her murder because the custom reloads didn't produce the expected amount of powder residue on her that was expected if the gun was close enough to be in her hands. Due to the lack of residue, they concluded that the gun must have been in his hands with him standing just outside contact distance.

 

[tromboneliness]

Thanks for the advice above. One of our instructors is a veteran and retired cop, with good insight into shoot/no-shoot scenarios. I worry a bit more about that than using a rifle.

Let me first state that I AM NOT A LAWYER, but there is a good chance if you (hopefully never) ever have to use it, it will be brought against you in court, and you will end up in court, if you use a "hunting" round that was "intended to kill".

I'm curious: this would differ from using a SD round in a handgun exactly how?

 

[thematthatter]

The allowable chamber pressures for 5.56 are higher than for .223. A chamber designed to withstand 5.56 will be safe with .223. On the other hand, a chamber designed for the lower pressures of .223 may not withstand a 5.56 round. Therefore, NEVER shoot 5.56 in a .223 barrel! While sometimes the safety margin in the .223 barrel might be large enough to get away with it, you don't want to be that one guy in 100,000 who's barrel literally blows up in his face.


If your barrel turns out to be .223, it's quite easy and relatively affordable to switch barrels on an AR.

Now they have the new lead free 5.56 rounds, the m855A1 which supposedly have an even higher chamber pressure.

 

[sfeile]

From all the research I've done into the cases where self defense has gone to trial, and from all experts like Ayoob and the lawyers that speak at the training here, it doesn't matter. If the cops or DA wants you to go down for daring to defend yourself, you're going down, good shoot or not, using a pink pistol or an AR-15 because they've made a political decision, not a realty-based one. If the cops and DA believe in the right to self defense and you were legally justified in the use of lethal force, then it, again, doesn't matter what you used to defend yourself.

The one and only thing I've ever seen or heard of making a difference in court is using reloads vs factory ammo. The forensics experts will draw conclusions, and explain those conclusions to the jury, based of testing of factory ammo. If your reloads behave differently, such as in the amount of powder residue, you could be SOL. The case in question was a man who had made low-recoil reloads for his wife. When she shot herself, he was charged with her murder because the custom reloads didn't produce the expected amount of powder residue on her that was expected if the gun was close enough to be in her hands. Due to the lack of residue, they concluded that the gun must have been in his hands with him standing just outside contact distance.

You make a good point sir, and I have the utmost respect for anything Ayoob has to say. Like I said I am no lawyer, and these are things that just help your chances. Just yesterday there was a shooting less than 20 miles from my house. Should be a justifiable defensive shooting, however from a past issue, the shooter had put the name of the man he shot on a bullet. Stupid things like that will get you fried.

Thanks for the advice above. One of our instructors is a veteran and retired cop, with good insight into shoot/no-shoot scenarios. I worry a bit more about that than using a rifle.



I'm curious: this would differ from using a SD round in a handgun exactly how?

Again, I am no lawyer, but it is the wording of the ammo. Just a recommendation to help CYA. Not law by any means, or a requirement, Just a thought for worst case scenario.

 

[gdgeorge]

You might want to look at Freedom Munitions. It's reloaded but fine for plinking.

 

[jumper]

For home defence, where does one keep their semi automatic assault rifle? Under the pillow or under the bed. I'm trying to wrap my head around this need.

 

[Rockminer]

For home defence, where does one keep their semi automatic assault rifle? Under the pillow or under the bed. I'm trying to wrap my head around this need.

Please stop using the term assault rifle. It only perpetuates the inability of people to actually understand the concept between a fully automatic weapon, and a semi auto that is no different than a hunting rifle. I'm not saying you don't know the difference, just that there are others with no clue when it comes to those words. But to answer your question, wherever one keeps their shotgun, hunting rifle, or any other self defense weapon.

 

[williaty]

For home defence, where does one keep their semi automatic assault rifle? Under the pillow or under the bed. I'm trying to wrap my head around this need.

There are a number of devices now that allow you to keep an AR-platform carbine securely locked up while being quick to access at need. ShotLock was the first company I know of to do it, but there's others now. So you can responsibly lock them up behind a door, in the closet, under the couch, wherever you think they'd be close at hand when the need arises.

To address the other portion of your question, the reason that some are interested in using an AR-platform carbine for self defense is that it's easier to use than a handgun. A long gun is almost always preferable to a handgun when it comes to self defense; the problem is that it's unwieldy to carry a long gun with you when you leave your house. The long gun is more likely to stop the threat, easier to aim under stress (which means safer for everyone around you), and easier to retain if someone tries to take it away from you. The downsides are, of course, the difficulty in carrying it with you, the dramatically higher cost to buy and to train with, and the increased noise when fired (which is a big deal). Of course, the last one can be moderated by using a suppressor, which is why you see so many home defense AR-platform carbines with a suppressor on them. It saves the hearing of everyone involved.

 

[the_ogre25]

S&W does not really recommend steel cased ammunition (I asked a factory rep once). They claim as the aluminum used in their receivers is softer than steel, accelerated wear is an issue. Makes sense I'd say.

So the steel bolt carrier riding in the upper is okay? The only aluminum the case would touch is the deflector ramp, which the M&P Sport does not have.

 

[tromboneliness]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this need.

If the SWMBO in your life had arthritic hands, and pistol shooting was both difficult and painful, you'd probably see. A mag or so on the pistol (medium size 9mm) and she's done, whereas she can shoot the rifle all day. With a smile on her face!

As you know (and thank you, btw), the ability to practice sufficiently with the weapon you intend to defend your life with is important.

Also, our floor plan is big and open. Plus we're on a pretty big piece of land, so managing the zombie apocalypse can begin at longer distance.

Finally, there's a pistol in the house, by my bedside. I don't relish the idea of making a 55' shot with it under stress, but that's my problem to work on. The rifle is in the corner on her side of the bed, and she can make that shot all day.

 

[Rasputin]

Here is a well done article for you to check out:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

I use Federal 193 and 885 ball in my AR.

 

[tromboneliness]

Here is a well done article for you to check out:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

I use Federal 193 and 885 ball in my AR.

Thank you kindly, sir. Awesome article.