When I started to read more about straight razors on the internet and their sharpening/honing I found out that there is or are proponents or some unusual method of sharpening/honing of (razor) blades, socalled pyramid method of honinh. If I understood correctly that means you repeat honing (or sharpening) on lower grit stone after you have honed it on some higher grit stone and go back to higher grit stone, then again you go back to lower grit stone, but with different number of passes then previously and so on. My immediate thought was, does this make any sense at all? I think if you have done sharpening/honing at every grit properly it doesn't make sense at all. In my opinion this socalled pyramid method has been concieved and used by those who haven't got proper sharpening skills and use some trial and error method to hone his blade. If a person does a good job at every grit level there is not need going back to the previous grit, let alone in a manner of some weird numerical sequence.
Pyramid honing method?
- Thread starter Hyperborean
- Start date
Taken straight from the SRP forums;
What is the pyramid method of honing?
The theory behind the pyramid system is simple: You alternate between hones of two different grits, using a lot of strokes on the coarser side to start out, then using fewer and fewer as you continue. Usually, the pyramid is done on a Norton 4000/8000 grit combination stone, which was popularized by Lynn Abrams, SRP's founder.
It's called a "pyramid" because the strokes on the coarse side of the stone taper off as you go: You might start with 10, for example, then 5, then 3, then 1.
The pyramid is a popular approach because it's simple and it works. As you progress in your honing abilities, you'll develop theories as to why it works, but even some of the more advanced honers seem to disagree on the theory behind it. For right now, let's just say that it helps you avoid some of the vexing problems of honing and creates a clear path for you to follow. It helps you avoid the dreaded "overhoned edge," and it partially answers the question "how many strokes do I do?"
You'll frequently hear two different pyramids mentioned, the "conservative pyramid" and the "aggresive pyramid." Here's how the conservative pyramid works:
1 stroke 4K, 5 strokes 8K
3 strokes 4K, 5 strokes 8K
5 strokes 4K, 5 strokes 8K
3 strokes 4K, 5 strokes 8K
1 stroke 4K, 5 strokes 8K
See how the number of strokes on the 4K side of the hone increase and then decrease? There's your "pyramid."
The whole thing is fairly controversial, but a lot of people agree that it works consistently enough and is a valid honing technique.
What is the pyramid method of honing?
The theory behind the pyramid system is simple: You alternate between hones of two different grits, using a lot of strokes on the coarser side to start out, then using fewer and fewer as you continue. Usually, the pyramid is done on a Norton 4000/8000 grit combination stone, which was popularized by Lynn Abrams, SRP's founder.
It's called a "pyramid" because the strokes on the coarse side of the stone taper off as you go: You might start with 10, for example, then 5, then 3, then 1.
The pyramid is a popular approach because it's simple and it works. As you progress in your honing abilities, you'll develop theories as to why it works, but even some of the more advanced honers seem to disagree on the theory behind it. For right now, let's just say that it helps you avoid some of the vexing problems of honing and creates a clear path for you to follow. It helps you avoid the dreaded "overhoned edge," and it partially answers the question "how many strokes do I do?"
You'll frequently hear two different pyramids mentioned, the "conservative pyramid" and the "aggresive pyramid." Here's how the conservative pyramid works:
1 stroke 4K, 5 strokes 8K
3 strokes 4K, 5 strokes 8K
5 strokes 4K, 5 strokes 8K
3 strokes 4K, 5 strokes 8K
1 stroke 4K, 5 strokes 8K
See how the number of strokes on the 4K side of the hone increase and then decrease? There's your "pyramid."
The whole thing is fairly controversial, but a lot of people agree that it works consistently enough and is a valid honing technique.
Never did much for me. I'd rather set the bevel (if needed!) and spend the appropriate amount of time on each subsequent hone.
The guy that came up with it, popularized it, and still propounds it is *the* honemeister among honemeisters here in the US, so your second to last sentence is incorrect. I'm guessing you haven't sharpened many straight razors. Honing razors isn't quite like honing knives or chisels, and guys that approach razors with the same mindset fail spectacularly until they make the mental adjustment. You don't hone to a burr at one grit before moving to the next one, for example, and you don't want to have any burr at all when you finish. With knives you just don't worry about that microscopic burr from your final hone, with chisels and planes you strop it off when you're done leaving a clean sharp edge. But if you try this with a straight razor you'll wind up with an unshaveably dull edge that will likely scar you in the process as that burr winds up embedded in your skin to rust. So somehow you've got to hone the edge until it's perfectly sharp without going too far, and without the assistance of burr formation to tell you how the edge is coming along. This is *not* an easy task - there is no good way to judge how much time or how many laps will be needed on each hone, though it is possible it takes a *lot* of experience and isn't really a teachable skill. You'll find that many of the guys that eschew the pyramid also have to finish their edges on an abrasive paste because their assessment of the edge during the honing progression isn't really as good as they think it is.
The pyramid is a darn-near foolproof way of achieving the proper sharp burr-free edge on a razor using the predominant hone of the day, the Norton 4k/8k combination hone. When you're just beginning to learn how to hone a razor, foolproof is good, and when you're honing razors for thousands of people each year foolproof is also good. The foolproof nature of this technique had a great deal to do with the expansion of straight razor shaving here in the US, since it allowed the first few generations of new straight razor shavers to achieve quick success with their Norton hones.
By alternating between the 4k and 8k sides of the hone and gradually decreasing the laps on the 4k side, you can tiptoe up to that perfect edge without going over. As the various parts of the edge get sharp (because it unfortunately doesn't all get sharp at exactly the same rate) and those parts develop a burr, by alternating back to the 4k side of the hone will knock those burrs off, and over the course of the pyramid (or multiple pyramids if needed) the entire edge comes up to perfect sharpness with any incipient burrs knocked off before they can cause harm to the edge or the hone, leaving you with a perfect edge at the end.
Personally, I don't use the pyramid. I think it's a bit slow, and I believe that for most beginners the use of an abrasive paste is both more cost-effective and easier to learn. But on the Norton 4k/8k hone the pyramid is still a great technique to use since that otherwise excellent and inexpensive hone is prone to producing a burr unless you really guard against it.
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Quoted for posterity. Deleted the parts I don't agree with.
Mparker has nailed it. The pyramid wasn't invented by Lynn, but he did popularize it. Its pretty much SR dogma now. No guide to honing can be complete without mentioning the pyramid method. Its that pervasive and popular.
It gives new honers structure that they otherwise would not have. I know you can't imagine this, but this is what would happen if you were to try the step method without a good understanding of the sharpness tests. You'd spend either too much time or too little on the 4k stone. If you spend too little on the 4k stone, it can be compensated by even more strokes on the 8k stone, but thats just a huge waste of time. The 8k stone theoretically cuts 2x less quickly than the 4k, so for every stroke you miss on the 4k thats 2 you have to do on the 8k.
If you do too many strokes on the 4k, at best you've just wasted your time. At worst, you could create a burr or wire edge.
Once the pyramid is done, you test shave. If its shave ready it shaves. If not, you go back a few steps and keep doing it until it shaves. See, very structured.
If you did that with the step method and it didn't shave, well, do you go back to the 4k? Do you do 10 more laps on the 8k? Without dozens of honings under your belt, you really can't know. I know, but I've been doing this for all of my adult life.
All that said, I use the step method. Its how I learned (yes I learned the hard way, I did not have razor forums back then, in fact I don't think I even had broadband). I've used the pyramid method, I can attest to the fact that it works, but thats not how I prefer to do my honing. It takes longer for me. I also don't like switching between hones, an even bigger waste of my time. But remember, I've honed hundreds of different razors and have honed my own for close to a decade. YMWV.
It does give the n00b some structure but doesn't remove the guess work - it bears mentioning that one pyramid might not do the trick. It could take two, three or more to get the job done.
Hmmmmm Interesting !!!!
The guy that made it popular yeah he honed a few razors, 10's of thousands...
But hey what does he know right
Anyway here is my sugestion get 20 e-baybe's and start honing... try all the "expert" advice and by the time you get all 20 of those shave ready you will figure it out.... or flat give up in frustration
The guy that made it popular yeah he honed a few razors, 10's of thousands...
But hey what does he know right
Anyway here is my sugestion get 20 e-baybe's and start honing... try all the "expert" advice and by the time you get all 20 of those shave ready you will figure it out.... or flat give up in frustration
All I am saying is that it didn't work well for me, not that it didn't work - I learned more from stepping through a series of hones. I found it easier to gauge the affect each hone had on the razors edge that way.
Here is the "Rub" until you learn the feel of the edge to know when to change grits/stone the Progressive method is not a good one..
This is why it is considered a slightly more advanced method, not because of the method but because the Honer needs to have a little experience on the hones before it becomes an effective means of honing....
Nobody ever says the Pyramid is the best it just is a good solid starting point... as it allows one to sneak up on a sharp edge
This is why it is considered a slightly more advanced method, not because of the method but because the Honer needs to have a little experience on the hones before it becomes an effective means of honing....
Nobody ever says the Pyramid is the best it just is a good solid starting point... as it allows one to sneak up on a sharp edge
+1
I tried it when I first started and hated it. I set the bevel and progress up in grit accordingly. Going back and forth between hones is a big waste of time to me.
- Thread starter
- #11
I must correct myself, this is not trial and error method, pyramid method is just stupid.And if it has became a dogma it is even worse. This socalled pyramid method means doing sharpening/honing without thinking. It may work for people who don't know what they are doing and people who don't have enough skill - for people who actually get the edge duller on higher grit stone instead of getting it sharper stone and they need to go to lower grit to correct the mistakes. However this pyramid method automatically assumes that even though it might not be the case. To me that's just dumb, to repeat something even if it's unnecessary, just because someone established so.
I thought that the greatest authority in the US in the field of sharpening/honing was John Juranitch not this Lynn guy.
No, sir. I have sharpened knives, meat cleavers, and axes, no chisels or razors so far. And everyone which mentioned tools I sharpened told me they could shave with it, their arm hair of course
. Why do you think I need to form a burr to get some blade sharp or that burr is automaticaly formed when I sharpen a knife blade for example? Probably you have seen that properly sharpened edge doesn't reflect any light so....I think you don't need a burr to see that
So you said, it is a method for fools (if they blindly adhere to it) and noobs
Frankly, this method is offensive to anybody who understands and knows how to sharpen blades.
I thought that the greatest authority in the US in the field of sharpening/honing was John Juranitch not this Lynn guy.
No, sir. I have sharpened knives, meat cleavers, and axes, no chisels or razors so far. And everyone which mentioned tools I sharpened told me they could shave with it, their arm hair of course
. Why do you think I need to form a burr to get some blade sharp or that burr is automaticaly formed when I sharpen a knife blade for example? Probably you have seen that properly sharpened edge doesn't reflect any light so....I think you don't need a burr to see thatSo you said, it is a method for fools (if they blindly adhere to it) and noobs
Frankly, this method is offensive to anybody who understands and knows how to sharpen blades.
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I think the "hate" towards the pyramid honing method is unnecessary. If it works for someone, who am I to criticize him? Razors are a personal thing. So is the art of honing them.
I can tell you that pyramid honing really does work. Even though I don't use it.
I can tell you that pyramid honing really does work. Even though I don't use it.
I must correct myself, this is not trial and error method, pyramid method is just stupid.And if it has became a dogma it is even worse. This socalled pyramid method means doing sharpening/honing without thinking. It may work for people who don't know what they are doing and people who don't have enough skill - for people who actually get the edge duller on higher grit stone instead of getting it sharper stone and they need to go to lower grit to correct the mistakes. However this pyramid method automatically assumes that even though it might not be the case. To me that's just dumb, to repeat something even if it's unnecessary, just because someone established so.
I thought that the greatest authority in the US in the field of sharpening/honing was John Juranitch not this Lynn guy.
No, sir. I have sharpened knives, meat cleavers, and axes, no chisels or razors so far. And everyone which mentioned tools I sharpened told me they could shave with it, their arm hair of course
So you said, it is a method for fools (if they blindly adhere to it) and noobs
Yay, stupid , burn them!!! Argh, incompetent fools, they must all die- Thread starter
- #14
LOL I suggest they stop listening to some honemeister guru and learn how to sharpen by themselves or just send the blades to a person who understands sharpening. There are people who like to sharpen blades, so that won't be a problem.
LOL I suggest they stop listening to some honemeister guru and learn how to sharpen by themselves or just send the blades to a person who understands sharpening. There are people who like to sharpen blades, so that won't be a problem.
I bow before your godlike honing prowess.
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I'm not questioning whether it works or criticizing anyone for using it. My opinion is independent of other people's experiences and entirely based on my own expertise or lack thereof.
We have heard all this before, and will most likely hear it all again just another "Knife sharpener: who shall teach all us dumb Razor people how to hone....
Later... as we can't teach anything here...by the way shaving arm hair with a razor is child's play.... what is considered sharp in everyone else's eyes is considered to be just starting to razor people...
Edit: I don't know about Mr Parker there but I just was hit with a flashback, here are he and I actually defending the Pyramid Honing Method as a viable method in this thread... When neither he nor I use it, and for true irony he and I both were at the forefront of promoting the Progressive Method a few short years ago with a few other people that know a thing or two about honing Straight Razors... that is True Irony...
Later... as we can't teach anything here...by the way shaving arm hair with a razor is child's play.... what is considered sharp in everyone else's eyes is considered to be just starting to razor people...
Edit: I don't know about Mr Parker there but I just was hit with a flashback, here are he and I actually defending the Pyramid Honing Method as a viable method in this thread... When neither he nor I use it, and for true irony he and I both were at the forefront of promoting the Progressive Method a few short years ago with a few other people that know a thing or two about honing Straight Razors... that is True Irony...
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I agree with all of the above. I've tried a couple of pyramids, they worked OK. I quickly realized that they were a waste of time and I don't use them anymore. The pyramid is a teaching aid. If you know you don't need it, don't use it. If you're unsure, try it and you'll know soon enough.
This is just awesome! And then there are all these threads in this section along with those on other shaving forums full of amazing tales 
Pyramid schemes are against the law! 
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