Edge Retention

[jimm262]

I'm super new at honing, and only recently (like in the past week or so) have I been able to get edges that are anywhere near the neighborhood of good (keen and comfortable). Still not great compared to the better edges I've shaved with, but definitely acceptable. Previously "ok" was about the best I could do. So there is improvement which is encouraging, but the longevity of the edge is nowhere near what I have gotten from razors honed by people that really know what they are doing. During August, I shaved every day with the same razor and I only started getting tugging the last day or two of the month. Edges I have honed myself last maybe two or three shaves before I get that same tugging. My stropping routine is the same, so I don't think that is the issue (but maybe?). I have heard mention of "over honing" and suspect that that is maybe what is going on: I've gotten the edge too thin and brittle and it's degrading rapidly. So my questions to this experienced crew:

• Any sure fire way to diagnose if over honing is actually the issue?
• If it's not that, what else could it be?
• Assuming it is over honing, any tips to avoid it going further? Is it just spend less time on the 8K and finishing stone?
• What do you do with an overhoned edge? Take it back the 8K? 4K? Joint it/kill the edge first?

 

[Steve56]

Any sure fire way to diagnose if over honing is actually the issue?

You can usually see an unstable edge with 7-10x magnification under good lights. The edge should be straight and even all along the edge with no shiny places.

If it's not that, what else could it be?

First, are we talking anout the same razor when you are comparing your edges with other edges? Different razors can hold an acceptable edge for different times. For example, a Filarmonica Sub Cero held an acceptable edge almost twice as long as a Filarmonica Doble Temple.

It could also be that your edges are not as well formed/developed as the better edges you reference, so such an edge will probably reach the ‘tug’ level more quickly than a better edge. For example, if you aren’t hitting the toe and heel the same as the middle, you’ll probably experience tugging sooner with the toe/heel.

If the razor has been restored, the temper at the edge could be bad. If so, it will have trouble developing and/or holding an edge.

Assuming it is over honing, any tips to avoid it going further?

Use light pressure and flip the blade over every stroke after you’re happy with a certain grit level. This is usually how you hone off a fin/burr/wire. You might also try stropping on linen/fabric between grits.

If you are using a natural stone, slurry can add some convexity to the edge that can add some durability.

What do you do with an overhoned edge?

If the steel and temper are good, try going back to your 4-5k stone and just re-hone up the grits, trying out the tips above.

Also try adding a layer or two of electrical tape to the spine on the last couple of stones. If the taped edge is straighter and more even, no shiny spots/areas, and the edge lasts longer, then the specific razor in question needs a higher angle on the bevel.

Good honing!

 

[Unknown Stone]

The very first thing that has to be established is whether or not the bevel is actually set or not. This is admittedly, a completely separate discussion, but it’s one that’s worth ironing out sooner rather than later because if this isn’t straightened out, you’ll misidentify faults in all kinds of places.

Try switching the scratch pattern angle.
For example you could do straight ahead scratches on 5K but maybe consider finishing on the 5K with some very very light X-strokes just to even everything out.

Next, hone on 8K at a slight heel-forward angle (roughly 20 to 30°) until the 5K scratches are pretty much gone. There are several tweaks and variations on this, but this is the basic idea.

Changing your angle on each stone can give you a fairly clear visual contrast in terms of whether to keep going at any given stage or not. This might offer a little peace of mind as far as knowing when to stop or to keep going.

It’s just something to try out.

 

[jimm262]

You can usually see an unstable edge with 7-10x magnification under good lights. The edge should be straight and even all along the edge with no shiny places.

The edge does look straight and even under magnification with no shiny places under

First, are we talking anout the same razor when you are comparing your edges with other edges? Different razors can hold an acceptable edge for different times. For example, a Filarmonica Sub Cero held an acceptable edge almost twice as long as a Filarmonica Doble Temple.

No -- very different razors. The August razor was a nice Friodur (stainless steel). This razor I am working with is an EBay beater (6/8 "Cracker Jack" whatever that is).

It could also be that your edges are not as well formed/developed as the better edges you reference, so such an edge will probably reach the ‘tug’ level more quickly than a better edge. For example, if you aren’t hitting the toe and heel the same as the middle, you’ll probably experience tugging sooner with the toe/heel.

I am sure this is part of it

 

[jimm262]

Also try adding a layer or two of electrical tape to the spine on the last couple of stones. If the taped edge is straighter and more even, no shiny spots/areas, and the edge lasts longer, then the specific razor in question needs a higher angle on the bevel.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that.

 

[jimm262]

The very first thing that has to be established is whether or not the bevel is actually set or not. This is admittedly, a completely separate discussion, but it’s one that’s worth ironing out sooner rather than later because if this isn’t straightened out, you’ll misidentify faults in all kinds of places.

I set the bevel until the edge looks even under magnification (usb microscope) with no shiny spots when I look down the edge. Anything else to look for to give me confidence that the bevel is set correctly?

Try switching the scratch pattern angle.

I'll try this

 

[Unknown Stone]

Yes, when setting the bevel it can be helpful to attempt a limited shave test after a little stropping.

An alternative would be shaving arm hair at skin level. It should cut quite easily with no meaningful resistance. Forcing the blade through the hair is a pretty good indication that it isn’t set yet.

Often times what can happen is that one may find themselves overworking the higher grit stones in an attempt to unknowingly compensate for an incomplete bevel set. In such a case it’s entirely possible that the person honing could create a lot of fatigue at the edge.

 

[jimm262]

Yes, when setting the bevel it can be helpful to attempt a limited shave test after a little stropping.

An alternative would be shaving arm hair at skin level. It should cut quite easily with no meaningful resistance. Forcing the blade through the hair is a pretty good indication that it isn’t set yet.

Often times what can happen is that one may find themselves overworking the higher grit stones in an attempt to unknowingly compensate for an incomplete bevel set. In such a case it’s entirely possible that the person honing could create a lot of fatigue at the edge.

These are good tips. I have been moving on from bevel setting entirely from a visual analysis, so this helps. Thanks.

 

[albsat]

Yes, when setting the bevel it can be helpful to attempt a limited shave test after a little stropping.

An alternative would be shaving arm hair at skin level. It should cut quite easily with no meaningful resistance. Forcing the blade through the hair is a pretty good indication that it isn’t set yet.

Often times what can happen is that one may find themselves overworking the higher grit stones in an attempt to unknowingly compensate for an incomplete bevel set. In such a case it’s entirely possible that the person honing could create a lot of fatigue at the edge.

Question please as I find this comment very interesting . How high should the razor after the bevel setting be when shaving arm hair at skin level for testing the edge? I get this result if the razor is high at angle and I am not sure about this.

 

[Unknown Stone]

Question please as I find this comment very interesting . How high should the razor after the bevel setting be when shaving arm hair at skin level for testing the edge? I get this result if the razor is high at angle and I am not sure about this.

I use this roughly the same angle I would use for shaving when doing the arm hair test. As with anything, some tests can be misleading leading, which is why I would generally suggest a small test shave on the face.

While it certainly won’t feel like heaven, it’s also nothing to be afraid of. There’s another member here that has been recommending this test for probably more than 10 years now but people may have reservations about the test because of the comfort level or lack there of. Also different grit bevel setting stones will feel different on the face.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Lots of factors here. Based on my experience, your edges will improve the more you hone. And the better your edges, the longer they will shave without tugging.

Pretty soon you will be complaining that your edges are lasting too long and you no longer need to hone as frequently as in the past.

 

[Saloogie]

I've developed a habit, which might be wrong, where I do a quick stropping after the 2nd pass of a 3 pass shave.

5-10 passes on the suede side with green compound and 5-10 on leather. It gives me a closer and smoother ATG shave for the 3rd pass. It takes very little time and makes the shave a good bit closer without any chatter, especially going ATG on the upper lip.

I'm not an expert honer yet and I'm still experimenting with my stones and what gives me the sharpest and most comfortable shave. Maybe when I get better, I won't have to do extra stropping, but for now it's working well for me.

 

[psfred]

i suspect your edges, like mine, are less than ideal at the moment. As you hone more, you will discover what feedback you need to tell you when you have everything correct, and when you do your edges will last longer.

Takes some practice, and I've heard many times here that new honers suddenly find they aren't honing all the time as the edges hold up longer.

Make sure you are removing all the 1k stria on the bevel with higher grit stones, if you are not the random ones left often cause a microchip to form at the very edge when you shave with them. Use different angles on each stone as you hone, that way you can easily tell if you've removed the scratches from the previous step.

And an eBay beater is likely to have compromised steel along the edge from being battered around, and once you hone past that the edges will last longer.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

First, post photos of the razor in question both sides of the blade, to remove the razor as a possible source of the problem.

Second, how much magnification are you using?

Third, you are looking straight down on the edge with magnification, and you see not shiny reflections, like the first photo blow?

Forth are you using tape? If not use tape.

Everything you are experiencing as a new honer is very common. More than likely you are not over honing, but as said the bevels are not meeting fully or you have rolled the edge, also very common.

If you get lucky and the bevels are meeting in some spots but not all the razor will shave but not well, then you strop with too much pressure on a contaminated strop or lift the spine and the edge breaks off and is now micro ragged.

What stones do you have?

Pick one razor and learn to hone that one, once you master that razor then move on to another razor. Honing a pre shave ready razor is not like honing an eBay beater. Likely the beater will need some repair before it can be honed.

Almost set

Fully set edge

 

[Kyle89]

When I was starting out I never had issues "overhoning", my issues were always "underhoning", and bad stropping technique. Make sure that bevel is set. Make sure those striations are gone from the earlier grits. If you think you're done with midrange, do it again. And that's after being positive your bevel is set. And stropping on linen is your friend.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Pressure:

1. When setting a bevel, you need to use enough pressure to remove metal to form an apex.
2. For each subsequent stone in the progression, you need to use enough pressure to remove the scratch marks from the previous stone.
3. Finish each stone in the progression using light to no pressure (only the weight of the razor) to minimize the depth of the scratch marks from the current stone. This also tends to bring out the sharpness of the edge.
4. Using more pressure than needed for #1 and #2 just removes metal unnecessarily.

When setting a bevel, I test the edge on cherry tomatoes* and my forearm hair.

When finishing an edge, I use the forearm hair** and hanging hair tests (HHT).

*Cherry tomato test (CTT).
**FHT.

 

[rhgg2]

new honers suddenly find they aren't honing all the time

The obvious remedy to that is to buy more razors

 

[helicopter]

The obvious remedy to that is to buy more razors

It isn't a terrible way to start. Basically what I have been doing. Just buy some more shave ready razors. The more I think about it, the more I question whether it is a good long-term strategy, though.

 

[DrStrange]

It isn't a terrible way to start. Basically what I have been doing. Just buy some more shave ready razors. The more I think about it, the more I question whether it is a good long-term strategy, though.

After several years of that, you'll start to get a good idea of what your favorites are.

 

[psfred]

Oops, I already did the buy more razors part.....