PILS Stainless Steel Razor...WITH RUST!

[shecky]

However, to expect stainless steel to be invulnerable to corrosion is an unrealistic expectation.

Is it really that unrealistic? It isn't a matter of being absolutely invulnerable to corrosion. But rather, relatively invulnerable to corrosion, such as the conditions encountered in the average bathroom, by the average razor.

Why is it my stainless Swiss Army Knife can survive much more adverse conditions, including salt water, than any razor, for years now, and not have a spec of rust anywhere without being babied in the least? And that's cutlery steel, likely with higher carbon and less chromium than the steel the PILS is made from. I would expect the conditions the average PILS would encounter to be much more mild. Under these conditions, if one cannot expect a stainless razor to be pretty much stain free, then the stainless selling point is pretty much meaningless unless one is looking for an overpriced trinket.

 

[Groat]

Is it really that unrealistic? It isn't a matter of being absolutely invulnerable to corrosion. But rather, relatively invulnerable to corrosion, such as the conditions encountered in the average bathroom, by the average razor.

Indeed. People aren't expecting them to be rust-free under the worst conditions, but shaving with them once a day is far from the worst conditions. Personally, I would expect the Pils to be able to withstand day to day life better than plated razors. That's really the selling point here. If these 'stainless' razors are going to rust after a few months of use and be functionally useless after a few years, why even bother making one?

 

[KenS]

For the price of a Pils (or Feather) I'd expect a metal that was not going to rust or stain under anticipated shaving conditions. I would also expect a razor costing that much be held to exact tolerances. Further; sloppy work should not be accepted, especially at premium prices.
Ken.

 

[kg0mz]

Looking at the photos, I'm not sure the rust rate on his Pils is going to render it useless anytime in the next decade. Granted, there ought not be any rust, but I don't see it eating metal at an alarming rate.

 

[papi]

Hello, I did not read every reply, because I dont have the time right now. The key to this is the term impurities. The stainless has bad particles of metal in the make up. If you use a metal polish made in germany called Flitz. It will clean it and prevent it some what. I was told to use it on my german knifes. Its not toxic and its the best polish you can get. keep in mind that my knife set is worth about 6 times what the razor is worth, and I still had problems. Thats the way they make stuff now. Its not like it use to be.

 

[Im_leary]

I have been following this thread with interest. I am adding this reply in order to clarify some ambiguity regarding stainless steels.

If one includes the super-alloys, such as the nickle-based Hastalloys, Inconels and so on, stainless steel alloys number in the hundreds. Each one of these was derived for a particular purpose, be that exceptional corrosion resistance, high tinsel strength, casting quality, machinability, and on and on. Literally, there are as many design criteria as there are stainless steel alloys. Corrosion resistance is by far the most prevalent quality designed into stainless steel, however, this quality may be subordinate to other requirements.... like being able to shape the metal into something useful. In fact, if corrosion resistance were the paramount quality in a metal, some would suggest we make all metal objects from Hastalloy-B. Problem is, although this alloy is superbly impervious to most corrosive environments, it is also very difficult to machine, is problematic to cast, and it is horribly expensive.

In terms of manufacturing a safety razor, the primary metallurgical requirements would include corrosion resistance, ease of machining, and ease of casting. I have included casting because, on inspection, I believe the top and bottom sections of the razor head assembly are investment castings. Among the stainless steels suitable for this purpose are 302, 303, 304, 304L, 316, 316L, and 317 SS. As one progresses up the list, each alloy has an increasing content of chromium, nickel and molybdenum. The amount of the different materials included in the alloy changes very little as one goes up the list of progressively increasing corrosion resistance. For instance; 302 SS is 18% Cr, 9% Ni, and 1% Mn, 316 SS contains 18% Cr, 12% Ni, 1% Mn, and 2% Mo, the balance being iron in all cases. But, at the same time the alloy will increase substantially in cost, difficulty in machining, and (to a lesser degree) difficulty in casting. What this means to a consumer is that the more cost effective choices, such as 302 and 304 SS will tarnish and, if exposed to salts like bromides, chlorides, fluorides and sulfides, corrode. Incidentally, my data can be found in the Corrosion Data Survey, NACE - 1985.

As to precisely which alloy the PILS razor head assembly is made, I do not know with any certainty. I offer the following thoughts as being possible factors leading to the corrosion found on some of these razors:

1. I suspect is that different lots of these razors may have been fabricated from different alloys.
2. As mentioned earlier, the head assemblies may have been machined with cutting equipment used on carbon steel production earlier... however this seems less likely because later reports have stated that the rust can not be easily removed. Smearing, as it is called, can normally be removed quite easily.
3. Contamination of the casting material with incompatible additives

 

[Tordu]

one thing is sure , the PILS razor is having some bad press lately on the forum.

 

[ssultan]

True...I had to go home during lunch on Monday to make sure mine wasn't having issues...so far so good...

 

[proxymoron]

one thing is sure , the PILS razor is having some bad press lately on the forum.

Not quite schadenfreude but I doubt you'd see as many guys chiming in on a $20 razor with issues. Still, what a bummer.

 

[poonjaji]

one thing is sure , the PILS razor is having some bad press lately on the forum.

I do not think anyone is pointing fingers, but I was not trying to generate bad press for PILS. I was truly more interested in letting other PILS owners know I am having an issue with mine, and I hope it does not happen to theirs. As I wrote in my original post, I have treated the PILS with the same attention to detail as I do all of my razors. After reading the various comments, I now recognize I was a bit naive in thinking it would not rust, and possibly a bit negligent for not oiling it after each use. (I do not shave with straights, but I know that is basic care for such razors.) Maybe it is my own fault for it occurring, but I certainly am not discounting my feeling of disappointment when I discovered it. As proxymoron noted, if I had paid $20 for the razor you likely would not have heard a peep out of me.

 

[Tordu]

I totally understand your feeling and would have the same if my pils shows rust. I think that some guys , including me have been a little too enthusiast one this one. Its a good thing that you have post about this problem.

 

[Haiku]

I do not think anyone is pointing fingers, but I was not trying to generate bad press for PILS. I was truly more interested in letting other PILS owners know I am having an issue with mine, and I hope it does not happen to theirs. As I wrote in my original post, I have treated the PILS with the same attention to detail as I do all of my razors. After reading the various comments, I now recognize I was a bit naive in thinking it would not rust, and possibly a bit negligent for not oiling it after each use. (I do not shave with straights, but I know that is basic care for such razors.) Maybe it is my own fault for it occurring, but I certainly am not discounting my feeling of disappointment when I discovered it. As proxymoron noted, if I had paid $20 for the razor you likely would not have heard a peep out of me.

You were not naive in thinking it would not rust. My 1925 Darwin has not rusted.

You were not negligent in not oiling your razor. Oiling DE razors is one of the stranger pieces of advice that seems to be current on this and other shaving boards.

I've never oiled any razors and not one of them has rusted. I own far too many vintage Gillettes, a vintage Merkur, the 1925 Darwin, a number of Rolls Razors, a French Gardette as well as a current Merkur HD, Slant, an OC and a Mergress. I also own a "banned vendor" stainless steel razor as well as a stainless steel Polish LUX. I know I've left out a few of the DE's and I won't mention the SE collection. I repeat: I've never oiled a razor. I've never had a razor display even a hint of rust. Not one not ever.

I am willing to bet that no one on this board has ever had a stainless steel straight razor rust. If anyone has, it will be a rare and extremely exceptional thing to have happened. Carbon straights rust if not dried and a drop of oil put on the pivot, but not stainless steel straights.

The rust on your PILS is a manufacturing defect plain and simple. Whether it was caused by the type of steel used, or the process, it is without question a manufacturing defect.

And by the way, I expect that oiling the razor would make no difference to the rust. If the defect is part of the head, it will likely also be part of the handle and the rest of the razor. Unless you store the whole razor in a jar of oil, simply oiling it won't help.

 

[Im_leary]

Haiku,

Just one point regarding the handle; the handle has apparently been cut from bar-stock. Since bar stock is rolled in large batches and spooled onto reels of up to 200 tons, attention to quality control is far more rigorous. You can imagine how costly it would be to scrap or rework a 200 ton reel of bar stock. In the case of the razor heads, I would think that they are cast in lots counted in hundreds... and a relatively small error in the alloy process can, and will, become apparent as soon as the part is machined. On inspection of poojaji's photos, the discoloration seems to be found only in those portions of the head which have been milled.


With any luck at all the handle of poonjaji's razor should not develop rust.

 

[Wil Dorenbos]

You were not naive in thinking it would not rust. My 1925 Darwin has not rusted. You were not negligent in not oiling your razor.

I am not technical, or handy, but I agree on this. I have never oiled a razor, and unless is says so in the manual, I will not do that. For me the OP does have an item with his Pils, and I hope he can work it out.

 

[woodfluter]

Poonjaji. so sorry to hear of your rust problems.

I won't go into the numerous posts on metallurgy here. I have some technical background in this subject and found some of it informative, some on target, some a bit misleading. But in the final analysis not relevant.

I use a lot of "stainless" items in field conditions (I'm a geologist), and have a lot of knives and other tools that I've used to cut plant material, exposed to salt spray for a week at a time, etc. None of them have developed rust. A bit of discoloration for some high-carbon stainless tool steels due to plant acids, absolutely nothing for the rest.

I also have serious doubts about the concept of rust from blades migrating to the razor in crevices. It seems unlikely because I've never seen any rust at all on my razor blades (even non-stainless), and you appear to be as OCD as I am!

Pils screwed up somehow.
You can appreciate the razor for it's good qualities.
You might ask them for a replacement - appears reasonable to me.

Otherwise, if the naval jelly treatment works, you might consider brushing lacquer into the crevices where rust appeared before. It should be almost un-noticable. It should seal off the metal from added exposure to moisture and oxygen. Just a thought.

Best of luck regardless!
- Bill

 

[michiganlover]

After reading the various comments, I now recognize I was a bit naive in thinking it would not rust, and possibly a bit negligent for not oiling it after each use. (I do not shave with straights, but I know that is basic care for such razors.)

I don't think you are at fault with this razor, and I consider needing to oil a DE razor after each use to be superbly silly. The majority of the people on this board certainly don't do it, and it is beyond silly to entertain the idea that a high end razor like the PILS would require such treatment; it's a razor, it should be designed to take some abuse, it's not a display item.

In terms of straights, it's my understanding that thoroughly drying the blade is all that is required to prevent rusting of carbon steel. Oiling the blade is done for a razor that is going into long term storage, not for a razor that is in daily use.

 

[Duncanh48]

I noticed this thread and read with some interest as I have been shaving with a Pils for around 3 months ago, although over the past couple of weeks I've been using my EJ89L.

I took a look at my Pils today and guess what; very similar discolouration was evident on the head. It's only a small amount but there is definitely something there.

I suspect what attracted many of us to the Pils was the claims of superb build quality and engineering, whatever the cause of this issue it is certainly disappointing to see this.

I haven't attempted to remove the "rust" at this point but will take a closer look over the next day or two. I love my Pils and don't really want to return it so will try to resolve without going down this road.

 

[Im_leary]

I noticed this thread and read with some interest as I have been shaving with a Pils for around 3 months ago, although over the past couple of weeks I've been using my EJ89L.

I took a look at my Pils today and guess what; very similar discolouration was evident on the head. It's only a small amount but there is definitely something there.

I suspect what attracted many of us to the Pils was the claims of superb build quality and engineering, whatever the cause of this issue it is certainly disappointing to see this.

I haven't attempted to remove the "rust" at this point but will take a closer look over the next day or two. I love my Pils and don't really want to return it so will try to resolve without going down this road.

Is the discoloration prevalent over the entire head or has it appeared in those spots which have been machined? If they appear only where the head has been machined, I may have found the answer on page 1239 in my Machinery's Handbook 24th Edition.

According to the literature, the problem is due to porosity of the steel in those locations where air may be trapped in the mold. Although molten metal injected into the mold will displace most of the air, in those areas where the air is trapped it will mix with the metal. Subsequent heating (tempering or forging for example) will cause the many small pores of trapped air to expand to form blisters in those areas where the steel was mixed with the trapped air. The discoloration problem is caused by the non-homogeneous nature of these regions populated with millions of microscopic blisters. The air (nitrogen and oxygen) trapped within these regions will have combined with the constituent components of the alloy and, due to the very high heat, will have saturated the area with oxides and nitrites... inducing a rust-colored cast in the metal. It should also be mentioned that the outer "shell" of these blistered regions will normally be well covered with a homogeneous layer of the alloy. This is due to the osmotic effect of the molten alloy wetting the inner surface of the mold. The color becomes apparent when the thin layer of alloy is machined off of the blistered region... with the resultant discoloration. I could have saved some time if I had consulted the Physical Metallurgy Handbook first (I had to borrow a copy). It seems that this problem is not at all uncommon when casting small parts having many interior nooks and crannies.

Now for the good part; this is not "rust" (Fe2O3·nH2O and (FeO(OH) in the technical sense (sorry about the confusing state of the aforementioned compounds... I can't seem to get this text editor to do sub and superscripts). Because the surrounding alloy has remained intact, the discoloration, by all accounts I have read, will not spread or increase in severity. In short, if you can overlook the discoloration, ignore it. The discoloration will in no way become a detriment to the function of the razor.

 

[Hayden]

Now for the good part; this is not "rust" (Fe2O3·nH2O and (FeO(OH) in the technical sense (sorry about the confusing state of the aforementioned compounds... I can't seem to get this text editor to do sub and superscripts). Because the surrounding alloy has remained intact, the discoloration, by all accounts I have read, will not spread or increase in severity. In short, if you can overlook the discoloration, ignore it. The discoloration will in no way become a detriment to the function of the razor.[/QUOTE]

While this is good, but for the price you pay for this razor it should look and stay immaculate for many many years

 

[Im_leary]

While this is good, but for the price you pay for this razor it should look and stay immaculate for many many years

I shall refrain from recriminations of any kind... I offer only an explanation for what has been observed.