Old dog, new tricks

[Slats6NYR]

That's interesting! I've been here less than a month, and I'm only asking the question because I keep seeing it...

"Load it like you hate it" is not a question. It's your phrase. There are different answers that have been given to your questions you've asked. You have to realize that answers are going to vary from person to person.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

 

[AimlessWanderer]

It seems that this is more about your perception of the advice is given by others here.

Maybe so. Please accept these questions are genuine. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, just to understand what is being said and why.

In your Hall of Fame post, you said that in so many words, that you go against popular opinions. That's fine. It doesn't make you wrong or right. Nor does it make any else who contributes wrong or right.

Again, I accept this completely. I might walk a different path, but am still open to accepting the opinions of others. However, if I genuinely don't understand it, I will ask questions ...

If you are happy in how you shave, and what to do to achieve it, that's great. Why does it bother you that others members do what works for them and offer advice when members ask for it? You said it yourself in your first part of this thread...YMMV. Keep in mind that opinions are like a$$ho!#!$, everybody has one.

I am indeed trying to put across why I think the way I do, but I assure you, I'm not trying to say I'm right. I had hoped to have made that clear by now, and offer my apologies if this has been misinterpretted. I am asking questions to try and better understand the perspectives of others. I'm sorry if that's a problem for anyone here.

 

[Rico Suave]

A very interesting discussion so far.

When I first heard of the idea of 'cushion' with respect to lather, its meaning was not immediately clear. I inclined to the theory that lather serves largely to lubricate, and a thin film suffices for that purpose (witness brushless creams). So why the popular acclaim for thick cushiony lather? I came up with some guesses:

• It's fun and satisfying to play with lather, the bigger the better.
• The event of razor touching lather can give both auditory and haptic feedback. Thicker lather gives earlier warning of imminent razor to face contact. I appreciated this a beginner, it helped avoid stupid initial contact nicks.
• Lather dries due to evaporation. A thicker lather will dry more slowly than a thin film. Important when enjoying a long slow shave.
  
• Big lather (contra Cremo-style invisible film) provides obvious visible indication of what has been shaved versus what is still to be shaven.
  
• Gives more purpose to our brush collections.

Give some more reasons, or poke holes in mine. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

 

[Jim]

Al your question is very welcome here.
As one of the people who helped develop the "How to make a great lather tutorial", the phrase "use more product" was an outgrowth of the project when men tried to duplicate the results. That in turn lead to the "load it like you hate it" term which can be found in the 3017 "fidelity" thread.

 

[WildWest74]

That in turn lead to the "load it like you hate it" term which can be found in the 3017 "fidelity" thread.

Interesting point, @Jim! Since many who 3017 are trying to use up product, this is something I could see them advocating.

 

[Slats6NYR]

Maybe so. Please accept these questions are genuine. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, just to understand what is being said and why.



Again, I accept this completely. I might walk a different path, but am still open to accepting the opinions of others. However, if I genuinely don't understand it, I will ask questions ...



I am indeed trying to put across why I think the way I do, but I assure you, I'm not trying to say I'm right. I had hoped to have made that clear by now, and offer my apologies if this has been misinterpretted. I am asking questions to try and better understand the perspectives of others. I'm sorry if that's a problem for anyone here.

Again, think about it...it seems you want a stock answer that will fit to everyone's situation.You can only give such advice based on what a member asks about, how much information they give you themselves or situation and what you know about.

If someone starts a thread about a certain brand of razor, blade or soap, and I have experience with the product in question, I'll give them information on how it works for me. It might not work the same for them.

Other members will share information as well. All of that information given will vary to one degree or another.

As an example, go into the razor blade forum and ask for opinions on Derby. There are thousands of different feelings about them here. The same goes for a lot of different brands of everything here and how to use it.

You might not know what razor they are using...what blade...a coarse or thin beard...what condition their skin is in. I've seen threads lately that members have started about finding out they have allergies to different soaps based on the ingredients.

Each person has to figure out what will work for them. So it really up to the individual how much product they need when they lather up.

Thick or thin lather? Depends on what works for that person...the only to find out is using it. It's all trial and error.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Al your question is very welcome here.
As one of the people who helped develop the "How to make a great lather tutorial", the phrase "use more product" was an outgrowth of the project when men tried to duplicate the results. That in turn lead to the "load it like you hate it" term which can be found in the 3017 "fidelity" thread.

Ahhh, so it might be a recent crossover from that thread? Thank you, Jim. It's probably not that thread where I have seen it used so much - possibly in the shave clinic? Not sure without digging back. It did seem to be mentioned quite a few times in my recent exploration of the forum, which is why I found it confusing. It would also explain why the guy who's been here three years didn't think it was a prevailant phrase

So Jim, was it the norm that people trying to build a workable lather were possibly not using enough product, or those who were just trying to create the picture perfect lather?

 

[AimlessWanderer]

A very interesting discussion so far.

When I first heard of the idea of 'cushion' with respect to lather, its meaning was not immediately clear. I inclined to the theory that lather serves largely to lubricate, and a thin film suffices for that purpose (witness brushless creams). So why the popular acclaim for thick cushiony lather? I came up with some guesses:

• It's fun and satisfying to play with lather, the bigger the better.
• The event of razor touching lather can give both auditory and haptic feedback. Thicker lather gives earlier warning of imminent razor to face contact. I appreciated this a beginner, it helped avoid stupid initial contact nicks.
• Lather dries due to evaporation. A thicker lather will dry more slowly than a thin film. Important when enjoying a long slow shave.
  
• Big lather (contra Cremo-style invisible film) provides obvious visible indication of what has been shaved versus what is still to be shaven.
  
• Gives more purpose to our brush collections.

Give some more reasons, or poke holes in mine. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

Some very interesting suggestions there, Rico. There's certainly some aspects there I hadn't considered. Thanks for the input.

 

[Jim]

Our research in the How to build thread was that many men were not getting enough product off the puck to create an optimal lather. Especially when first starting with creams, transition to a hard soap was was difficult.
A good dense lather is a great tool to acomplish a close and comfortable shave.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Again, think about it...it seems you want a stock answer that will fit to everyone's situation.You can only give such advice based on what a member asks about, how much information they give you themselves or situation and what you know about.

If someone starts a thread about a certain brand of razor, blade or soap, and I have experience with the product in question, I'll give them information on how it works for me. It might not work the same for them.

Other members will share information as well. All of that information given will vary to one degree or another.

As an example, go into the razor blade forum and ask for opinions on Derby. There are thousands of different feelings about them here. The same goes for a lot of different brands of everything here and how to use it.

You might not know what razor they are using...what blade...a coarse or thin beard...what condition their skin is in. I've seen threads lately that members have started about finding out they have allergies to different soaps based on the ingredients.

Each person has to figure out what will work for them. So it really up to the individual how much product they need when they lather up.

Thick or thin lather? Depends on what works for that person...the only to find out is using it. It's all trial and error.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

I agree on everything you said ... except the first line.

Maybe I've been making "my" style of lather so long, I simply couldn't perceive why anyone would want it differently ... so I asked.

Rico's post above was very useful, as was Jim's. I now have a better understanding of why others might be batting that phrase about which I'd seen used a fair bit and you hadn't, and what factors might be beneficial for someone liking a thicker lather than me. I don't think you and I were quite on the same page, but I think (hope) we're all getting back on track now

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Our research in the How to build thread was that many men were not getting enough product off the puck to create an optimal lather. Especially when first starting with creams, transition to a hard soap was was difficult.
A good dense lather is a great tool to acomplish a close and comfortable shave.

Thanks Jim

I think you and I have slightly different perspectives on what gives each of us a "good" lather, (I have difficulty effectively working in a rich and product heavy lather, and end up with the situation I illustrated above) but if the main problem that new people were having was trying to use bubbly "froth" rather than a creamy lather, that makes a lot more sense.

 

[Slats6NYR]

"BUT ... and this is the important bit ... what advice do we give the newbie?
This is the underlying factor that I am trying to understand. I really don't care if someone here likes to apply it two inches thick and decorate it with chocolate sprinkles. Good luck to them. If it works for them, I wish them many years of pleasant and enjoyable shaves. I'm talking about the guy who has just unwrapped his birthday present and it's a starter kit of razor, soap and brush. Or maybe a guy who's new to wet shaving and happens to be searching for how to avoid razor burn. He has no idea what he's supposed to do, so he comes to this community. He hears the term cushion being used, and the phrase "load it like you hate it"."

These are your words from post#14 of this thread, and that is what I was addressing when I said you seem to be looking for stock answers.

Also, I remember you saying in another thread (if I am not exact, I apologise) that you have been DE shaving for about 25 years, using the same razor, same brand of blades, and same brand of soap, and here, that you like an thinner lather. If I remember right, you were questioning why people have many different soaps. Again, what you do works for you, and there is nothing wrong with it.

Since you've only been coming to the forum for less then a month, and seeing how much things vary from your own routine, it has to be a lot of information that you weren't expecting. In many ways, you are learning too. Good luck with it.



Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Also, I remember you saying in another thread (if I am not exact, I apologise) that you have been DE shaving for about 25 years, using the same razor, same brand of blades, and same brand of soap, and here, that you like an thinner lather. If I remember right, you were questioning why people have many different soaps. Again, what you do works for you, and there is nothing wrong with it.

Pretty much. In round numbers, I'd say 25 years of DE shaving, with the first 20 of those being self taught with essentially the same set up (same razor and blade and various different canned gloop). Since expanding to four razors, MWF and a boar brush, I've found that what I learned was easily transferred to the new razors and blades, and I can get great results from all of them with minimal adjustment on my part - better if I don't switch around too much.

I don't think I questioned why folks have so many soaps, but I did question why people were so opinionated of different blade brands, as I found myself adjusting between them quite easily - easily enough that which blade I had in my razor was pretty much irrelevant after the first pass or two.

Except for Feathers. I haven't mastered those yet. But I will

Since you've only been coming to the forum for less then a month, and seeing how much things vary from your own routine, it has to be a lot of information that you weren't expecting. In many ways, you are learning too. Good luck with it

Very much so! Which means there might be a lot more questions after this one

 

[Slats6NYR]

Pretty much. In round numbers, I'd say 25 years of DE shaving, with the first 20 of those being self taught with essentially the same set up (same razor and blade and various different canned gloop). Since expanding to four razors, MWF and a boar brush, I've found that what I learned was easily transferred to the new razors and blades, and I can get great results from all of them with minimal adjustment on my part - better if I don't switch around too much.

I don't think I questioned why folks have so many soaps, but I did question why people were so opinionated of different blade brands, as I found myself adjusting between them quite easily - easily enough that which blade I had in my razor was pretty much irrelevant after the first pass or two.

Except for Feathers. I haven't mastered those yet. But I will



Very much so! Which means there might be a lot more questions after this one [emoji3]

Keep asking.... that's what this place is about...and you'll get a thousand different answers. But, you'll find a lot of good information. When I knew next to nothing about DE shaving 3 years ago, I learned most of it from the members here.

As for the Feather blade, don't be afraid of it. Use it with a mild razor to start with, nothing adjustable. If you've been DE shaving for this long, you'll find your groove with it and then try it in your other razors.
It's one of the few brands that has an overall great reputation on B&B. When I have an event that I'm going to and need an easy BBS, it is the blade I go to.


...of course...I could be wrong...YMMV,..[emoji16]

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I have used Feathers a few times, and have managed to keep the red runny stuff inside my face but I've chucked them early because I found them a little too scratchy. I just haven't given myself enough time with them, as it was too easy to move onto any one of the others that I'd got kicking about.

I'm a bit of an oddbod round these parts in some ways. 25 years experience and asking questions can seem odd to many people, and so I can totally understand why you might have thought I was being a bit of a smart alec before. Trust me, you'll know if I think I'm right, and someone else is wrong. I'm not backwards at coming forwards However, if I didn't think there was anything left to learn, I wouldn't have signed up here. I am a little set in my ways, but also keen to sniff out if there's something I've missed. As to the vintage stuff I'm playing around with (3 hollow ground SE razors and a straight), I'm very much a beginner.

I'm also quite settled in my kit, even though I might badger people with awkward questions occasionally However, I've no aspirations to start collecting or try every product under the sun, which is why I signed myself up as a minimalist. My aspirations are basically to restore and get competent with using and maintaining the vintage stuff (no interest in buying more) and see if I've missed any tricks in the DE world, or if I've already learned everything I need. I know I already get good results and good blade life, but not how much - so signed up to the Excaliber club.

I'm sure I'll be both handing out advice like an old timer, and asking questions like a noob - often in the same post Don't worry, you'll all get used to me eventually

 

[psfred]

I agree with your take on shaving soap -- the only thing that counts is how slick it makes your skin. I get lovely, irritation free shaves with Williams (or Conk) with very thin lather that barely accumulates on the razor. It's slick as anything, though, and I can barely feel the edge. Great shaves -- I'm working on getting my lather wetter, mainly by loading less.

I suspect there is a tendency to think a hard, dry foam will "protect" the skin from the blade, when what actually protects the skin is the slickness of very wet lather. More is indeed not better here.

No problem with big fluffy clouds of lather so long as it is wet enough to shave well, but my current position on the matter is that you can't get loads of lather wet enough to get really superb shaves to stay put, it will slide off! I've seen people on youtube load enough soft soap to shave three people for a week and then complain it's not protective enough and they want more. I'd suggest much less, just enough to make the skin very slippery, and use care with the razor!

It's always a learning experience -- I've been shaving regularly since 1974 or so, and I sure wish I had known half of what I know now! I'd still be using that old injector razor, and Williams soap.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I've seen people of youtube load enough soft soap to shave three people for a week and then complain it's not protective enough and they want more. I'd suggest much less, just enough to make the skin very slippery, and use care with the razor!

I know what you mean I have tried building "richer" lather a few years back, and can get it so it feels slippy and not tacky between the finger tips, but can't get it everywhere it needs to be in the beard. I find it so much easier to apply at skin level when it's thinner ... not to mention cheaper. We're all different though ...

I will also add that I have never had an issue with my sink drain getting clogged either. So there's another potential bonus with thin lather.

 

[psfred]

I've become fond of shave sticks for that reason, although I hate wasting the lather left in the brush. Wipe the stick over your wet face and lather up, it's plenty when you get enough water in it to make it almost slip off. Shaves wonderfully. Less than half a gram per shave.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I've become fond of shave sticks for that reason, although I hate wasting the lather left in the brush. Wipe the stick over your wet face and lather up, it's plenty when you get enough water in it to make it almost slip off. Shaves wonderfully. Less than half a gram per shave.

I actually tried one for the first time earlier tonight!

Applied directly to the face, and lathered with wet fingertips - no brush. It worked great, but it won't replace the MWF and boar brush for home use.