I have been tempted to take the SG20k and try a japanese style nagura progression (synth and/or natural nagura) and see what I get.
No love for synthetic stones?
- Thread starter SilverSteel
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I have been tempted to take the SG20k and try a japanese style nagura progression (synth and/or natural nagura) and see what I get.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Good to see ya back Neil!
I have tried synthetic nagura on synthetic stones and on natural stones. I only got good results on the lower grit stones. It seemed to keep the stone from loading and increase the efficiency. Synthetic nagura on higher grit stones seemed to eat up the edge and give a harsh edge. Using natural nagura on the SG20k might be worth exploring. I think you might need a nagura that does not kick up to much synthetic slurry to get optimal results.
I tried to use my shapton gs 0.44 micron stone as a slurry stone on one of my harder Jnat's. I had mixed results. The first time i tried it i only did a minimal amount of work. That edge was quite nice. The next time i tried it i spent more time working the slurry. That edge did not work.
Do some testing and post your findings. It will probably help someone.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Sakimoto (the Asano gent) uses Mikawa on synthetics, mostly a mejiro from what I’ve seen in videos. He says that the Mikawa helps keep the stone from loading/glazing (I think).
That might work. The SG20K stones are very hard and dense. Thus, if the Nagura stones are softer than the Suehiro, the progression should work nicely.
In honor of this thread I did the following progression on a newly acquired Lauterjung Liger 37 (predecessor to Puma line and a cool blade):
1.5k Shapton Professional
4k Naniwa Hayabusa
8k Naniwa Superstone
25 passes over a felt strop loaded with 0.1 um Diamond for a totally mirror polish.
Then stropped on leather.
blade passed hht with flying colors and the test shave was very nice. Still I will probably re-do it on naturals!
1.5k Shapton Professional
4k Naniwa Hayabusa
8k Naniwa Superstone
25 passes over a felt strop loaded with 0.1 um Diamond for a totally mirror polish.
Then stropped on leather.
blade passed hht with flying colors and the test shave was very nice. Still I will probably re-do it on naturals!
So many great points on this thread! You have to start somewhere and a set of Naniwas ain't a bad place to start.
Regarding finishers, use the Naniwa 12k and see what you think. I really like the edges I get from mine. Then try one of the naturals and see what you think about that. And if you find yourself not using a stone, sell it on the BST.
What i am missing with most synthetics is the feedback from the stone. I find it hard to judge edge development, especially on the higher grit stones. If i spend to long time on say an 8k superstone and it loads up to much i get an fragile edge. I get the best results if i do a full synthetic progression and spend most of my time doing the ground work. On the 8k and finer stones i only do a minimal amount of work. I know it is debatable if you are able to over hone. In principle it is just a sign that you are not doing enough work at each grit level.
I hear what you are saying about feedback on finer synthetics. I really like the feedback from my Shapton HR 4k and 8k, but I am less crazy about the feedback from my Naniwa Chosera 1k and Super Stone 12k. That said, no matter what it feels like I use my loupe, cherry tomatoes and forearm hair to guide me.
At some point, I would like to try a Shapton HR 1k, and one of the finer Shapton smaller GlassStones - like the .85 or 1.2 micron.
To me, the stone that has great feedback is the Imperia la Roccia. I know that many people shun the stone because the vendor refuses to identify the location from which the stone is mined. It is a natural stone, so quality can vary with the specimen. The one I have seems to be a very good one producing an edge much finer than a 12K Naniwa, but not as good as my Suehiro G20K. The feedback from the stone is wonderful. I usually start honing using either shaving lather or a liquid hand soap and as I hone, I will regularly add a few drops of water until the razor starts to stick to the stone. At that point, I start honing under running water. When the razor starts to stick once again, the edge is ready for stropping.
I have the gs seven 6.7, 1.2, 0.85 and 0.44. I am not that impressed with the 0.44. The 0.85 seems to polish better and the edge does not seem to improve much if i use the 0.44. They cut really fast, so i really do not need anything coarser then the 6.7 (2k).
The feedback is ok, but still not grate.
I use synthetics up to finish as it saves wear on my JNATS…but to be honest lately I have used just a 1k and then a JNAT with a nagura progression
The Shapton Glass 30K and the Suehiro Gokymyo 20K have very similar micron ratings (0.49 micron for the SG30K and 0.50 micron for the SG20K) and their prices are in the same region of the stratosphere (over $300 USD). The reviews I have read seem to favor the Suehiro. That is why I added a SG 20K to my collection of hones and have not regretted the purchase.
I have a Shapton Glass 16K and find it to be similar to the Naniwa SS 12K in edge quality. I seldom use either the SG16K or the Naniwa 12K as I jump from the Naniwa 10K to either the Suehiro or one of my preferred natural finishers.
I started out with Arkansas stones as I liked the idea of a localized natural progression. Also, the hard stones allowed me to use more pressure, as I was wont to do in starting out, without resulting in too much damage to the spine to edge relationship. A few years later, I acquired a Suehiro 1k/3k combo and a member of a forum mentioned that that combo was an excellent set-up for naturals afterwards. So since then, I have been mostly moving to a coticule (water only, no slurry) and a Welsh purple slate (water, no slurry, or fine machine oil) with consistently good results. Main difference I think has to do with the feel of the synths compared to the naturals. Many synths are softer and sandy to silty in feel. Many naturals are harder, more like skating on ice rather than roller-skating by way of an analogy.
Given that the OP has opted for a full Super Stone progression, I would suggest trying either a coticule or a translucent or black hard Arkansas when the time comes for trying a natural stone. Not as big as the Super Stones, 6" x 2" should be enough. And maybe try using them hand-held rather than on the bench. A coticule could be used after the 3k or 5k SS as part of a progression, or even after the 8k or 12k SS to tame the edge a little. A coticule is also nice in that they can vary as to feel, so one could opt for one that either felt like a synth or like a harder natural stone. A translucent or black hard Arkansas, being more glassy and brittle in feel, is very different from a synth (or at least the resin-bonded synths). For starters, I would suggest using one to tame the edge off the 12k SS. Then, as one became more familiar with it, one could use it after the 8k or 5k adding pressure at the start as needed.
Given that the OP has opted for a full Super Stone progression, I would suggest trying either a coticule or a translucent or black hard Arkansas when the time comes for trying a natural stone. Not as big as the Super Stones, 6" x 2" should be enough. And maybe try using them hand-held rather than on the bench. A coticule could be used after the 3k or 5k SS as part of a progression, or even after the 8k or 12k SS to tame the edge a little. A coticule is also nice in that they can vary as to feel, so one could opt for one that either felt like a synth or like a harder natural stone. A translucent or black hard Arkansas, being more glassy and brittle in feel, is very different from a synth (or at least the resin-bonded synths). For starters, I would suggest using one to tame the edge off the 12k SS. Then, as one became more familiar with it, one could use it after the 8k or 5k adding pressure at the start as needed.
The Gokymyo 20K is probably a better stone for razors then the 0.44 or the 30k gs/gs seven. I would like to try it some day. I think the 0.85 gs seven should not be compared to the 16k gs. I think the particle distribution is tighter in the 0.85. Under magnification there is some rougue scratches after the 0.44 which i do not get with the 0.85.
Is there any budget friendly smaller versions of the Gokymyo 20K?
Happy honing
A Sigma 13k leaves a nice shaving edge used dampened. Dieter Schmid in Germany used to sell a smaller-sized combo that married a Sigma 13k to a 1.2k for some reason. But for the 13k side, it was quite reasonable as to price. Now no longer listed.
Is this the same stone as this 13k from Satake?
Does anyone have any experiance with it?
Haven't been near the Sigma 13k in a while, but I recall the coloration being different than what you posted, less vividly mottled. And from what I can tell, it's cheaper than the Satake 13k that turns up on a quick search.
I've used the Sigma 13k, and, as I mentioned above, it leaves a nice shaving edge. Trick for me was to use it dampened, with very little standing water on the surface.
I've used the Sigma 13k, and, as I mentioned above, it leaves a nice shaving edge. Trick for me was to use it dampened, with very little standing water on the surface.
Very surprising, since the Sigmas are built on the opposite principle from the Gokumyos.
Gokumyo: "while most of the other Suehiro stones are made balancing speed of cutting and wear resistance, the Gokumyo Debado line treats cutting speed as secondary and achieves maximum wear resistance."
Sigma: "Sintered under heat and pressure, the resulting stone readily releases new, aggressive particles during use."
The only Sigma I've tried is the 1K, which is great for making rough, toothy edges on knives, but I'd never put a razor on it.
I have one sintered soaking German 2/6 combo Wassercraft stone. It seems to cut fast, but more coarse then my shapton 2k and 6k. I never liked the stone. Other sintered stones might be different, but i do not think i would buy a nother stone of this type without good recommendations.
The surface condition/prep might be more important, bacause it is really hard.
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