No love for synthetic stones?

[SilverSteel]

I see lots of comments/threads about the usage of natural stones, lapping film and diamond pasted balsa, but not that much about synthetic stones. They only ever seem to recommended as bevel setter and nothing else.

Why is it, that synthetic stones seem to be widely disregarded?

 

[cugel]

Synthetic stones work great and are quite commonly used by razor honers, myself included. That said, I get a lot more enjoyment out of natural stones and that's why I prefer them. In general, naturals are typically slower and harder to use. I don't hone to shave, I shave to hone, if that makes sense. I mainly use Japanese natural stones, but I love coticules too. Need to get an Arkansas at some point. I do use and love synthetics for repair work and most bevel setting because of speed; I don't have a fast natural bevel setter-type stone. I have never tried film but have tried felt loaded with 0.1 um Diamond, and it worked great: super fast, easy and keen. The fun factor was lacking, however, compared to natural stones. Just MHO.

 

[Herrenberg]

Synthetic stones aren't disregarded, but they're not as deep a subject as naturals, so they don't command as many words and debate and discussion.

I've tried a lot of synthetic stones, and for razors, I prefer the Shapton Glass stones (HR or HC, both good) over all others I've tried, until you get to the finisher.

For finishers, my opinion is:

Suehiro Gokumyo 20K > Shapton Glass 30K > Naniwa 10K

Haven't tried the Naniwa 12K. Also the gap between the Suehiro and the Shapton finishers is, for me, quite large. It's the difference between "yeah, this works well" and "wow." The Naniwa is a friendlier edge than the SG edge, but not keen enough to shave nearly as close, as easily on my face.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I hear what you are saying, but most of us hone on synthetics and finish on naturals. There is not a synthetic that can finish a razor as well as a natural stone.

Yes, you may be able to get a sharper edge from a good high grit synthetic stone, film or paste. But shaving is not about just sharp, sharp is easy.

Sharp and comfortable is what shaving is all about.

Yes, I know a lot of new guys rave about film and paste, because it is easy. But if all you eat is McDonalds, you will never know what a good well grilled steak tastes like.

To each their own, look at the multi blade cartridge market, lots of those guys think they are getting great shaves…

 

[global_dev]

I see lots of comments/threads about the usage of natural stones, lapping film and diamond pasted balsa, but not that much about synthetic stones. They only ever seem to recommended as bevel setter and nothing else.

Why is it, that synthetic stones seem to be widely disregarded?

I love the choseras and snow white, the green brick, the kuromakos and the few g7s i have and no complaints at all.

A few others that work great.

 

[SilverSteel]

most of us hone on synthetics and finish on naturals

I allready thought that this might be the case, thanks for the confirmation. So, many of you actually use sythetic stones for the bevel setting and the preparation for the finisher. It's propbably so common, that it's simply not discussed all that much. I was mainly asking, because I want to become a bit more serious about the honing and plan to buy some stones to replace my lapping film. Thinking about getting the following set: Naniwa Professional 1k, Naniwa Super Stone 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k, Suehiro Gokumyo 20K

Arks and Jnats are very tempting, but I came to the conclusion, that for a beginner like me it's probably better to start with the basics and gain some experience before going down this road.

 

[SilverSteel]

I don't hone to shave, I shave to hone, if that makes sense.

Thats really an interesting perspective. I never thought about that, but it makes absolutely sense.

 

[SilverGeezer]

I will never give up my Norton 4/8. It is the baseline that I measure other stones against.
I enjoy the challenge of trying to hone a great edge on a rock, but synthetics are easy and repeatable.

 

[SilverSteel]

For finishers, my opinion is:

Suehiro Gokumyo 20K > Shapton Glass 30K > Naniwa 10K

I've seen other people recommend the Suehiro Gokumyo 20K as a synthetic finisher option. From what I've read, it should be able to produce a very good edge that can only be compared with the very best natural stones. I also like the idea that I can trust that this stone has a certain quality and that it is not a gamble compared to buying natural stones.

 

[buca3152]

Synthetics are recipe honing. Once you develop an accurate stroke anyone can deliver a good shaving edge. Naturals are highly variable but if your using razor stones are easy enough once you get the hang of it. For me jnats are the best producers. But it took me a month of honing daily until I got it. A synthetic once your bevel is set is a much easier learning process. Unless you have personal access to someone who can show you in person. Then it's much easier.

 

[RayClem]

I have a collection of both synthetic and natural hones. I started with Naniwa Superstones. I have a full set from 600 grit up to 12K. I use them for bevel setting and intermediate stones. I was hoping the 12K would be a good finishing hone for me; it was not. Although the Naniwa 12K was able to produce an edge sharp enough for my beard, the resulting edge was not smooth enough for my sensitive skin. I now stop at the 10K and then move on to other finishing stones.

I also have a Shapton Glass 16K, which appears to be similar in grit size to the Naniwa 12K.

I have a Belgian Coticule that produces an edge similar in sharpness to a Naniwa 8K. Although Colicule edges are smooth, they are not sharp enough for my coarse beard.

I have a couple of hones that produce an edge similar to a Naniwa 10K. They include a Vermont green slate and a modern Thuringian hone (not an Escher). The produce a smooth edge, but not one that is sharp enough for my beard.

I have a couple of natural stones that produce an edge similar in sharpness to the Naniwa 12K. They include a Chinese Guangxi stone and a Tsushima Ocean Blue stone. They produce an edge sharp enough and smooth enough, but I prefer an even finer finish.

My favorite natural stones are the Greek Vermio, the Zulu Grey, Llyn Mellyn (Yellow Lake) Welsh slate, and the Imperia La Roccia. Either will produce a superior edge, both sharp and smooth. However, as natural stones, I cannot guarantee that any specimen you might obtain will perform like mine.

My best finisher is a synthetic, the Suehiro Gokumyo 20K. With a grit size of 0.5 micron, it produces a superb edge.

I do have a Hard Black Arkansas. Given enough patience, it will produce a nice edge. However, I lack the patience to do so.

Even if I finish on the Suehiro, I like to give my edges a final polishing with pasted strops. While many people use balsa strops pasted with diamond abrasives, I prefer using microfiber strops pasted with cubic boron nitride abrasives: 0.5 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron. When I first add the 0.1 micron to my progression, I doubted that my face would be able to feel the difference between 0.25 micron and 0.1 micron. However, it did make an improvement in the shave.

Thus, I find that using a combination of synthetic hones, natural stones, and pasted strops will produce the very best edges I have been able to achieve. Could I produce a sharp, smooth edge with only synthetic hones? Sure I could. Could I produce a sharp, smooth edge with only natural hones? Sure I could. However, I like having both in my arsenal. Sometimes different razors respond best to different hones and honing methods.

 

[Empire straights]

Thats really an interesting perspective. I never thought about that, but it makes absolutely sense.

I didn't start that way but that's how I ended up. And I love naturals. India stones are pretty great for synths for tools and knives

 

[Empire straights]

Thats really an interesting perspective. I never thought about that, but it makes absolutely sense.

I didn't start that way but that's how I ended up. And I love naturals. India stones are pretty great for synths for tools and knives

I have a collection of both synthetic and natural hones. I started with Naniwa Superstones. I have a full set from 600 grit up to 12K. I use them for bevel setting and intermediate stones. I was hoping the 12K would be a good finishing hone for me; it was not. Although the Naniwa 12K was able to produce an edge sharp enough for my beard, the resulting edge was not smooth enough for my sensitive skin. I now stop at the 10K and then move on to other finishing stones.

I also have a Shapton Glass 16K, which appears to be similar in grit size to the Naniwa 12K.

I have a Belgian Coticule that produces an edge similar in sharpness to a Naniwa 8K. Although Colicule edges are smooth, they are not sharp enough for my coarse beard.

I have a couple of hones that produce an edge similar to a Naniwa 10K. They include a Vermont green slate and a modern Thuringian hone (not an Escher). The produce a smooth edge, but not one that is sharp enough for my beard.

I have a couple of natural stones that produce an edge similar in sharpness to the Naniwa 12K. They include a Chinese Guangxi stone and a Tsushima Ocean Blue stone. They produce an edge sharp enough and smooth enough, but I prefer an even finer finish.

My favorite natural stones are the Greek Vermio, the Zulu Grey, Llyn Mellyn (Yellow Lake) Welsh slate, and the Imperia La Roccia. Either will produce a superior edge, both sharp and smooth. However, as natural stones, I cannot guarantee that any specimen you might obtain will perform like mine.

My best finisher is a synthetic, the Suehiro Gokumyo 20K. With a grit size of 0.5 micron, it produces a superb edge.

I do have a Hard Black Arkansas. Given enough patience, it will produce a nice edge. However, I lack the patience to do so.

Even if I finish on the Suehiro, I like to give my edges a final polishing with pasted strops. While many people use balsa strops pasted with diamond abrasives, I prefer using microfiber strops pasted with cubic boron nitride abrasives: 0.5 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron. When I first add the 0.1 micron to my progression, I doubted that my face would be able to feel the difference between 0.25 micron and 0.1 micron. However, it did make an improvement in the shave.

Thus, I find that using a combination of synthetic hones, natural stones, and pasted strops will produce the very best edges I have been able to achieve. Could I produce a sharp, smooth edge with only synthetic hones? Sure I could. Could I produce a sharp, smooth edge with only natural hones? Sure I could. However, I like having both in my arsenal. Sometimes different razors respond best to different hones and honing methods.

Rough that black ark to 600 and don't burnish it and see how slow it is. It'll produce a smooth, crazy sharp edge pretty darn fast if you are making contact with the entire edge and it's a really good edge at least 8k..600 is what Dan finishes them to and I find that it's perfect as is with mineral oil.

 

[cotedupy]

At least some of the reason is that synthetic stones are simply not designed for razors. Razors like hard stones, knives like softer stones. And even though tools also like hard stones, most (all?) sharpening stones are still designed for knives.

The reason that knife sharpening stones tend to be softer is to do with feedback and angle control. It's less important that the stone is flat as a pancake, and more important that you don't roll an edge the moment your hand wobbles half a degree. That's not an issue with razors - the angle is set for you, so instead what you really need to maintain it, is flatness.

The other thing that synthetics are designed to be is fast. Important for knives because you have lots of metal to remove and knives get blunter. You want to be raising and knocking off burrs quickly, which is less important for razors, where sharpening is a more gradual and delicate refinement process. And more abrasion tends to go hand in hand with less refinement.

These two points mean that there's a far wider use of natural stones among the razor community, and synths among the knife community - natural stones are almost always both harder and slower than synthetics. Basically nobody would ever sharpen a knife on naturals from start to finish, in fact very few people use natural stones for edge sharpening at all - they're mostly used for bevel polishing. Yet I could quite happily hone a razor on natural stones from scratch.

The other thing that it means is that the synthetic stones people here tend to like for razors are harder splash and go stones; Shapton Glass, Naniwa Pro/Chosera, &c. To my mind the single most perfect waterstone ever designed is the Ouka, or Cerax 3k, but you don't see it talked about here, and I've never tried it for honing a razor. Because it's a glorious fast, muddy, soaking stone that feels like featherdown and cream.

That's my 2c anyway. The other obvious reason that synthetics don't get talked about as much, which @Herrenberg pointed out above, is because natural stones are inherently more interesting.

 

[Herrenberg]

Excellent post, but I think you've missed one corner of the synthetic stone world.

And even though tools also like hard stones, most (all?) sharpening stones are still designed for knives

There are some very interesting synthetic stones designed for tools, with potential or actual crossover for razors. Heck, the best synthetic finisher, the Suehiro Gokumyo 20K, was designed for tools. Or, really, it was designed to prioritize slow stone wear over every other consideration. Why would you do that, though, if not to sell to people trying for a fine polished edge on a chisel or plane blade, and really sick of wearing grooves in their stones? I want full credit for saying "in their stones" instead of "in their King stones."

There's a Gokumyo 2K, and the uber-dense Naniwa Hibiki series, too, both aimed at tools (I think), and both things I am playing with to try to find a good place for razors to participate. The other Debados may be in that category too. I have a lot of messing around to do before I have full opinions. The one I've played with most, the Gokumyo 2K, seems to need significant pressure to shine. That makes sense. The same reticence about exposing abrasive that makes for a beautiful, refined edge on a 20K is less desirable on a 2K, but it seems to shine as a just-after-the-the-bevel-setter stone, with some coaxing.

 

[cotedupy]

Excellent post, but I think you've missed one corner of the synthetic stone world.



There are some very interesting synthetic stones designed for tools, with potential or actual crossover for razors. Heck, the best synthetic finisher, the Suehiro Gokumyo 20K, was designed for tools. Or, really, it was designed to prioritize slow stone wear over every other consideration. Why would you do that, though, if not to sell to people trying for a fine polished edge on a chisel or plane blade, and really sick of wearing grooves in their stones? I want full credit for saying "in their stones" instead of "in their King stones."

There's a Gokumyo 2K, and the uber-dense Naniwa Hibiki series, too, both aimed at tools (I think), and both things I am playing with to try to find a good place for razors to participate. The other Debados may be in that category too. I have a lot of messing around to do before I have full opinions. The one I've played with most, the Gokumyo 2K, seems to need significant pressure to shine. That makes sense. The same reticence about exposing abrasive that makes for a beautiful, refined edge on a 20K is less desirable on a 2K, but it seems to shine as a just-after-the-the-bevel-setter stone, with some coaxing.

Ah interesting... When I was writing that post it struck me that there probably were synths that were designed specifically for tools, and that they'd probably make good razor stones too. I just didn't know about them / what they were.

I'd never even heard of Suehiro Gokumyo before joining these forums, and I hadn't heard of Naniwa Hibiki stones until you just mentioned them. Debados do get used for knives a bit, but I get the impression that people seem to like the lower grits more than higher grits. I've used a handful and they seem to get less good for knife sharpening, and more cloggy, as the grit increases.

So yes... a very useful (and interesting) addition to my random musings above. Cheers for the info!

 

[cotedupy]

I want full credit for saying "in their stones" instead of "in their King stones."

Ha... very good!

(And actually King DL 800 and 1200 are among my most used stones for knives. I do use them for razors, but only because I don't have much else in that range. I can imagine there are many better, less dishy, 1k synths for SR honing).

 

[Legion]

When I think of synth hones for tools I think of super hard ones like a Norton India. I have a king 800 which was my first bevel setter for razors, but I used to have to give it a quick lap each time I used it. Now I use it to thin knives mostly. I tried it with my chisels and plane irons, but it is too soft IMO, and it made me cringe putting any pressure on it. The India is perfect for that stuff.

 

[Ravenonrock]

My only experience is limited to Naniwa Super/Specialty stones in 1,3,5,8 and 12k. That’s what I purchased when I started honing and they work for me. I honed plenty of junk razors and “barn finds” and figured out how to get the most out of what I had. I get good edges and great shaves, can’t complain. I guess the simplicity of the setup is what appealed to me in the beginning, honing by numbers. I’m curious and paying attention to natural stones more, particularly finishers. In good time.

 

[Tomo]

There are plenty of guys that use synths for finishing but they tend not to shout about it. I did a quite ask around of some of the guys with the very best straight razor collections on the forum. Naniwa 12k and Gokumyo 2K came up repeatedly. I’ve not tried them but if these guys use them, I’m sure that they are plenty good.

Synthetic are just more utilitarian. You’re not going to make a collection of Naniwa 12k super stones. One you’ve got one you’ve got them all. A show us your naniwa 12k would be a pretty boring thread. Natural stones are varied and interesting but some people just want to shave. You don’t need a big collection of stones for that.