My Grande Journey

[AimlessWanderer]

View attachment 1024762

Apologies for taking this thread in the wrong direction but I'm still catching up with it and I've had this on my mind for a little while now. Somewhere early on, I think around page 15, the topic of blade rigidity and how it relates to a comfortable shave comes up. This really makes a lot of sense. Using this logic, would it also follow that a so called mild razor, like a RR babysmooth is perfectly capable of giving a very comfortable and close shave? There's a video on youtube of Michael Freedebrg using one of these while talking about blade chatter (great term!), or the lack thereof, due to the blade being very tightly clamped with little blade gap. Does this also mean that what is generally considered to be a more efficient/aggresive razor with a larger gap is always going to be less rigid, therefore less comfortable?

I'm sure Mike will be along with an 8 page response shortly but my response would be "it depends". Different people need different things from their razors, according to the character of their beards, their skin, and their techniques. Mike appears to need a more rigid set up than I do, and while I have used noisy razors, I've had less trouble shaving with them than Mike might.

 

[TinyT]

Absolutely, the fact that something is supposed to work a certain way, doesn't mean it will which is the thing that makes this so much fun - you have to experiment for yourself. But I do think that there are some things which are just plain fact. Also, I'm interested in the idea that with perfect technique, there would be a perfect razor to use - a kind of shaving ideal.

 

[TinyT]

View attachment 1024762

Apologies for taking this thread in the wrong direction but I'm still catching up with it and I've had this on my mind for a little while now. Somewhere early on, I think around page 15, the topic of blade rigidity and how it relates to a comfortable shave comes up. This really makes a lot of sense. Using this logic, would it also follow that a so called mild razor, like a RR babysmooth is perfectly capable of giving a very comfortable and close shave? There's a video on youtube of Michael Freedebrg using one of these while talking about blade chatter (great term!), or the lack thereof, due to the blade being very tightly clamped with little blade gap. Does this also mean that what is generally considered to be a more efficient/aggresive razor with a larger gap is always going to be less rigid, therefore less comfortable?

OK - I've just read pages 20 through 23 - this is getting discussed in quite a bit of detail now - the back to the future reference cropped up too!

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Absolutely, the fact that something is supposed to work a certain way, doesn't mean it will which is the thing that makes this so much fun - you have to experiment for yourself. But I do think that there are some things which are just plain fact. Also, I'm interested in the idea that with perfect technique, there would be a perfect razor to use - a kind of shaving ideal.

Perfect is subjective

I think it was Doug @Somerled that posted a vid somewhere, showing just how much straight hollow ground razors can flex. No support but the blade itself, and its own elasticity. If Mike ever went that route, he might need something more wedge like. The most difficult I've used was one of the flip top plastic Gillette Click razors - the whole head flexed back on the handle. The blade was fairly solid on the head, but the head would visibly flex back with the cutting resistance through my beard. I had to hold it right under the head, pressing slightly upwards to support it.

 

[Esox]

Apologies for taking this thread in the wrong direction but I'm still catching up with it and I've had this on my mind for a little while now. Somewhere early on, I think around page 15, the topic of blade rigidity and how it relates to a comfortable shave comes up. This really makes a lot of sense. Using this logic, would it also follow that a so called mild razor, like a RR babysmooth is perfectly capable of giving a very comfortable and close shave? There's a video on youtube of Michael Freedebrg using one of these while talking about blade chatter (great term!), or the lack thereof, due to the blade being very tightly clamped with little blade gap. Does this also mean that what is generally considered to be a more efficient/aggresive razor with a larger gap is always going to be less rigid, therefore less comfortable?

This thread has no direction lol. Feel free to jump in anywhere, anytime, about anything.

The RR Baby Smooth is difficult to find pictures of that can help explain it's design.

It has a lot of blade curvature which would increase the rigidity of the blade through spring pressure stored in that flex. Combined with the apparently modest blade exposure and I would expect the name fits and it would be smooth, if less efficient than I might like. The weakness, which might only be for me, are the lather slots that leave the blade unsupported for most of its width.

Understanding blade gap and how it affects a shave, and the skin flowing through that gap is different. Skin is a soft, supple medium and when the razor is moving over the skin, the skin will naturally move into that gap and fill it. That changes the angle of the blades edge to the skin to a steeper angle and a more effective cut. Think of it as a mechanical advantage.

Another advantage to having gap in a razors design is, it can make the razor more forgiving. As you've read, my first several shaves with my Grande it brought blood at the right corner of my mouth. That was a flaw in my technique, not the razor. Razors that have more blade gap, even a little like my NEW SC with .023" gap can warn you before that happens. As the skin is moving through that gap, in essence a wave of skin filling the gap, theres also a wave of skin in front of the razor. When the wave in front of the razor has no where to travel, it bunches up. Blade gap will warn you thats happening because you'll feel the skin tension increase inside the blade gap and you'll slow down, stretch your skin or stop the razor. With little to no gap, there is no such warning.

You might try stretching your skin a bit tighter. Razors blades are linear and flat. They like to shave a flat linear surface. Assuming you're using a rigid design and a sharp blade think of the razor as a wood plane and your skin the surface the plane is sliding over. One high spot and off it comes, a weeper.

The other thing I've learned is that no matter how little pressure you apply to your skin, there will be a 'wave' of skin ahead of the blade. It may be very small and quite likely is judging from the size of weepers that are occurring, but they can happen because that 'wave' has no distance to propagate into. The more pressure used, the taller that wave ahead of the blade becomes and the larger, and deeper, that weeper could be.

Think about the below pic and how waves propagate. The razor starting to move top left instigating that movement. The blue and/or red waves would be your skin surface ahead of the razor from the pressure applied. When those waves can no longer travel, they bunch up, you shave into and over them and plane off the tops creating a weeper.

This is why I was always getting a weeper right side of my mouth. The same spot every time. I'd be stroking from my ear towards the corner of my mouth. A wave of skin ahead of the razor and blade, and when I'd get to the corner of my mouth, that wave had no where to go, bunched up and I'd plane the top of that wave off just a tiny bit and get a weeper.

To overcome that I stretch my skin tighter and shave in a slightly different direction. Either slightly up or slightly down when I get to the same spot, but never straight into the corner of my mouth anymore. That wave needs a direction to travel in, so I gave it one. No more weeper there.

As I said in that post above, once I understood the problem, it was easily solved. I just had to shave in another direction to give that wave someplace to travel. No more blood.

As gap increases, with a well designed razor, the inherent rigidity of the blade should remain the same. Its all in how, where and by how much, the base plate supports the blade.

NEW SC Left. Made in Canada Old Type right. While both are essentially the same extremely rigid design, the SC has .023" blade gap and the Old Type has, literally, none.



That little bit of gap the NEW SC has makes a drastic difference. I have what I consider sensitive skin and with 3 or more full passes with the SC at a neutral angle, I'll have irritation. That irritation comes from my skin filling and moving through that gap and being, basically, forced into the blades edge at a steeper angle. As gap increases, so does my level of irritation and the speed that irritation grows.

The Canadian Old Type on the other hand has no gap at all, is extremely rigid and has slightly negative blade exposure. Because its such a rigid design with no gap whatsoever, combined with negative blade exposure, its my most unforgiving razor because it never feels like theres a blade in it. When you make a mistake and plane off a high spot, you wont even know it until you feel it or see blood. Master it with a Feather blade though and its up there with the best shaves you'll ever have.

How much rigidity a person needs in a razors design only the one shaving can say. I prefer having as much rigidity as possible combined with as little gap as possible. That puts everything on me and my technique. The better my technique the better my shave because there are no other variables.

Razor design is a complex subject and there is no best design for everyone. There is however, a best design for you. Finding it is the hard part. That road is considerably shorter when you understand each component of a razors design.

I'm sure Mike will be along with an 8 page response shortly but my response would be "it depends".

Tl;dr - "It depends" yep lol.

5000 word essay on Fluid Dynamics, Wave Propagation, Inherent Rigidity of a Razor Blade in Relation to Design? No problem! lol

Also, I'm interested in the idea that with perfect technique, there would be a perfect razor to use - a kind of shaving ideal.

The perfect technique with the perfect razor was, and to a point still is, my goal. When it comes to DE razors in regards to design and shave quality, for me, Fatip is King.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, its the best DE on Earth. Take the time to learn one with your best blade and best soap and you might just agree. My best save with it has been with a fresh Feather blade and Wickham 1912 soap. A truly stellar combination.

The only weakness I've found with mine, outside of technique, is the very thin and very flexible DE blade. If I drop the angle, even just a tiny bit, the very edge of the blade will flex, tug and lift the hair and skin around it and when it does cut, if I shave slowly enough, I'll hear a tiny 'ping' as the blade unloads that spring pressure, snaps back into place and gives me a weeper.

Since switching to the more than twice as thick GEM SE blades, thats become a nonissue. I can use my GEM razors at any angle they'll cut and the edge of that thicker blade, .009" vs the DE's ~.004", just does not flex during a shave.

As good as the Fatip is, the MMOC is its bigger badder brother. Easily twice the inherent rigidity and with twice the efficiency. The only drawback to it, is the time it takes to learn. Its taken me many months to be as proficient with it as I am and I'm still learning.

If theres a weakness with it, and other GEM razors, its the blade itself. This is why I'm going to try the AC format. I have a sneaking suspicion that AC blades will have a more refined edge than GEM blades.

Not quite 8 pages Al, but I gave er a go! lol

 

[TinyT]

When it comes to DE razors in regards to design and shave quality, for me, Fatip is King.

This is what I was getting at, really. I've only been DE shaving for a month and a half now and my very first shave was not what I'd expected, which was an effortless, perfect shave. In fact, it was the opposite; tuggy, rough, not very close and left me with considerable razor burn. Since then, my technique has improved considerably, and I've had some very enjoyable shaves, but I know I have so much further to go. I'm obsessed with technique, and while the Merkur 34C, which is my only razor, is certainly a very good razor, I'm beginning to think that a Fatip OC will help teach me more effectively. Given their modest cost, I shall almost certainly try one around the new year. It's partly my probably unwarranted nervousness that made me bring up the Babysmooth; and also the fact that it's described as a very mild razor most suited to light beards, which I don't have. But I'm skeptical about this description. As I mentioned, Michael Freedberg is able to get a very nice shave from the Babysmooth and he certainly doesn't have what I would describe as a light beard; but he does have technique, haha! I can't get away from the feeling that, as recommendable as the Merkur is, I could get at least as good a shave from the Babysmooth, but most importantly, a more comfortable one too, because of the rigidity. I guess there's only one way to find out! Also, the picture of the Canada Old Type seems to have some resemblance to the picture of the Babysmooth, albeit with less curvature. The rigidity argument is simply just too logical for me to ignore and I thank you very warmly for sharing your findings on the subject.

 

[TinyT]

Perfect is subjective

I'm not so sure about this. When it comes to something like aesthetics, perhaps. But I don't think that shaving, at it's most fundamental, has much to do with aesthetics. Consider a simple geometric shape, like a square. A perfect square is perfect; any variation in it's geometry would make it imperfect. A slightly more complex analogy would be the regular, convex polyhedrons; the famous Platonic solids, well known to philosophers and physicists. And shaving is really not so different. It involves geometry, chemistry and physical action, or motion. The idea of a pleasurable shave may well be subjective, but I for one would not enjoy a perfectly close, but very rough, tuggy shave that left me with discomfort. And I do think that there is such a thing as the ideal shave, and quite possibly an ideal razor. Although it's true that everybody's face is different, my face will be more like some and less like others; and most human faces are more or less the same. Your face will be more like my face than it will another part of my body, say my knee, for example. And so, most razor designs are also more or less the same. But some will definitely be more capable than others. And so I do wonder whether the perfect razor does indeed exist, providing the technique is there to support it. And it would appear to me to be quite possible that this razor would a rigid razor.

 

[Esox]

This is what I was getting at, really. I've only been DE shaving for a month and a half now and my very first shave was not what I'd expected, which was an effortless, perfect shave. In fact, it was the opposite; tuggy, rough, not very close and left me with considerable razor burn. Since then, my technique has improved considerably, and I've had some very enjoyable shaves, but I know I have so much further to go. I'm obsessed with technique, and while the Merkur 34C, which is my only razor, is certainly a very good razor, I'm beginning to think that a Fatip OC will help teach me more effectively. Given their modest cost, I shall almost certainly try one around the new year. It's partly my probably unwarranted nervousness that made me bring up the Babysmooth; and also the fact that it's described as a very mild razor most suited to light beards, which I don't have. But I'm skeptical about this description. As I mentioned, Michael Freedberg is able to get a very nice shave from the Babysmooth and he certainly doesn't have what I would describe as a light beard; but he does have technique, haha! I can't get away from the feeling that, as recommendable as the Merkur is, I could get at least as good a shave from the Babysmooth, but most importantly, a more comfortable one too, because of the rigidity. I guess there's only one way to find out! Also, the picture of the Canada Old Type seems to have some resemblance to the picture of the Babysmooth, albeit with less curvature. The rigidity argument is simply just too logical for me to ignore and I thank you very warmly for sharing your findings on the subject.

Technique evolves. The longer you use any tool, the more proficient you become with it. As you progress, your shaves will improve but you'll still have good and bad shaves. The better you get, the better your shaves become. Then you start to have some great shaves and some good shaves instead of bad shaves. My shaves are consistently very good with many that are great. I havent had a bad shave in a long time, but I learned to shave with a DE and have been back using them for over two years.

Tuggy, rough, not very close and left you with razor burn. The tuggy, rough and not very close part part could be from a lack of blade support or a poor blade choice, add a shim and see how much it helps with the same brand blade.

There are razors that support the blade fully making it very rigid, the 34C is not one of those razors. When you add a shim or more, you are stiffening up the cutting blade, especially if the shims are wide.

Prewar Tech + one Shim =...

If you cut one shim narrow and place it between the cap and blade, you will increase the blade gap making the razor more efficient.

If it helps, you know you need a more rigidly held blade. The other solution to the same end is a different choice of blade.

My R41 is a good example of that.

It has the same support points as your 34C but it has more blade exposure. The first blade I use in any new to me DE has always been a Derby Extra. In my Grande as well as other razors its a top 3 blade for me. The reason why is because its a less sharp blade and it needs a rigid design to get the most from it. In my R41 was almost unbearably tuggy, painfully so. The solution to that was a fresh Feather blade. That extra sharpness of a fresh Feather compensated for the lack of blade support.

My first shave with a Feather in that razor went well and it helped me understand how rigidity helps. in practice instead of theory. It was a smooth, comfortable and very close shave but that razor wont let me shave ATG as soon as I like. I even had to change my direction of shave on my second pass to XTG everywhere when I would normally be shaving directly ATG. Only on my third pass could I shave directly ATG and even then it was a very cautious and hesitant shave because I could easily feel how unpredictable the edge was. My second shave with the same blade, flipped, confirmed it. The initial sharpness was almost gone and I had two nicks from the blade flexing and cutting me.

Fatips, especially the newer ones with the wider caps are very user friendly despite being unforgiving. They need their own technique, as does the 34C, the Old Type and every other razor made. All razors are individuals and need to be treated as such in regards to the technique that allows you to get the most from them. They're all different.

Its been my experience that a more securely and rigidly held blade gives a smoother and more predictable shave. Its physics. There are those that disagree but I bet they dont cut their steaks with a plastic knife either. Theres a reason why.

Add a shim to your Merkur. You'll notice the difference instantly. Once you feel you have a solid technique with it shimmed, remove the shim and try a Feather blade. Then shim the Feather blade and understand the differences between each step.

A $20 Piccolo is an option. If you prefer longer, thicker handles though, buy a Grande. Either, would be a huge step up from the 34C. I highly doubt you'll regret it. Once you get good with it, you wont need another DE. Want, is another matter lol.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I'm not so sure about this. When it comes to something like aesthetics, perhaps. But I don't think that shaving, at it's most fundamental, has much to do with aesthetics. Consider a simple geometric shape, like a square. A perfect square is perfect; any variation in it's geometry would make it imperfect. A slightly more complex analogy would be the regular, convex polyhedrons; the famous Platonic solids, well known to philosophers and physicists. And shaving is really not so different. It involves geometry, chemistry and physical action, or motion. The idea of a pleasurable shave may well be subjective, but I for one would not enjoy a perfectly close, but very rough, tuggy shave that left me with discomfort. And I do think that there is such a thing as the ideal shave, and quite possibly an ideal razor. Although it's true that everybody's face is different, my face will be more like some and less like others; and most human faces are more or less the same. Your face will be more like my face than it will another part of my body, say my knee, for example. And so, most razor designs are also more or less the same. But some will definitely be more capable than others. And so I do wonder whether the perfect razor does indeed exist, providing the technique is there to support it. And it would appear to me to be quite possible that this razor would a rigid razor.

While we may share similar notions of what a perfect result is, how we need to get there might differ wildly.

Mike tends to shave directly ATG every 48 hours. That doesn't work as well as a "conventional" 3 pass shave for me. My skin deflects too much to go directly ATG, which in turn screws up the angles in my preferred mild razors. I can do it with a straight or shavette though, as they're less finnicky over angle and you don't have to worry about the edge lifting as you do when there's a cap and comb in play. Also, as the hair is cut from three sides on a three pass shave, and has more of a "bullet" tip, I get less ingrowns from my frizzy beard growing back out.

So as I go the three pass route, I encounter less cutting resistance than I would directly ATG. I don't need rigidity as much as others might, and can enjoy a little give in the blade, be that DE or straight format. Just like with driving, different terrain calls for different levels of suspension. Mine is fairly smooth, but there are a few undulations. I'm only shaving though, not trying to plane my face smooth.

Don't let any of this detract from YOUR perfect shave though. You may well benefit from that rigidity. You may also change your opinion about that later. However, everyone else's shaves are irrelevant to a large extent. They're not shaving your face. Find your own perfection, but keep an open mind as to what that means, and how many different routes/methods/kits get you there in comfort.

 

[Esox]

Just like with driving, different terrain calls for different levels of suspension

I like a suspension that will go anywhere I point it lol.

 

[TinyT]

Technique evolves. The longer you use any tool, the more proficient you become with it. As you progress, your shaves will improve but you'll still have good and bad shaves. The better you get, the better your shaves become. Then you start to have some great shaves and some good shaves instead of bad shaves. My shaves are consistently very good with many that are great. I havent had a bad shave in a long time, but I learned to shave with a DE and have been back using them for over two years.

Tuggy, rough, not very close and left you with razor burn. The tuggy, rough and not very close part part could be from a lack of blade support or a poor blade choice, add a shim and see how much it helps with the same brand blade.



If it helps, you know you need a more rigidly held blade. The other solution to the same end is a different choice of blade.

My R41 is a good example of that.

It has the same support points as your 34C but it has more blade exposure. The first blade I use in any new to me DE has always been a Derby Extra. In my Grande as well as other razors its a top 3 blade for me. The reason why is because its a less sharp blade and it needs a rigid design to get the most from it. In my R41 was almost unbearably tuggy, painfully so. The solution to that was a fresh Feather blade. That extra sharpness of a fresh Feather compensated for the lack of blade support.

My first shave with a Feather in that razor went well and it helped me understand how rigidity helps. in practice instead of theory. It was a smooth, comfortable and very close shave but that razor wont let me shave ATG as soon as I like. I even had to change my direction of shave on my second pass to XTG everywhere when I would normally be shaving directly ATG. Only on my third pass could I shave directly ATG and even then it was a very cautious and hesitant shave because I could easily feel how unpredictable the edge was. My second shave with the same blade, flipped, confirmed it. The initial sharpness was almost gone and I had two nicks from the blade flexing and cutting me.

Fatips, especially the newer ones with the wider caps are very user friendly despite being unforgiving. They need their own technique, as does the 34C, the Old Type and every other razor made. All razors are individuals and need to be treated as such in regards to the technique that allows you to get the most from them. They're all different.

Its been my experience that a more securely and rigidly held blade gives a smoother and more predictable shave. Its physics. There are those that disagree but I bet they dont cut their steaks with a plastic knife either. Theres a reason why.

Add a shim to your Merkur. You'll notice the difference instantly. Once you feel you have a solid technique with it shimmed, remove the shim and try a Feather blade. Then shim the Feather blade and understand the differences between each step.

A $20 Piccolo is an option. If you prefer longer, thicker handles though, buy a Grande. Either, would be a huge step up from the 34C. I highly doubt you'll regret it. Once you get good with it, you wont need another DE. Want, is another matter lol.

I don't find the Merkur 34C horrible to shave with (I haven't had a rough or tuggy shave since the first 2 or 3) and as soon as I changed the blade from a Shark SS to a Gillette 7 O'clock Green, the shave was much smoother. I'm currently using an Astra SP and this provides an even smoother shave. I can honestly say I've never had shaves as good as these in over 25 years of shaving. Tonight I managed to get a very nice lather and was rewarded with a lovely, irritation free shave. My skin just felt nice and cool and slightly tight. I'm fairly confident that I'll eventually be able to achieve a comfortable and close shave with this razor, but having now experienced some very nice shaves, I'm starting to wonder just how good they'll be when I get really good at this. Of course, this means I start to fantasize about other razors, blades, soaps - no, not fantasizing, planning! I just want to make sure, as far as is possible, that I get the right razor (s) for me. Blades and soaps are less of a problem in this regard, since I can buy samples and experiment without having to worry too much about being wasteful. The more I shave, the more it seems to occupy my thoughts (I think about shaving a lot!) and so I seem to be spending a fair amount of time here on B&B in the company of others, whom I can only assume have similar 'problems' to mine. The strange thing is, in the beginning all I really wanted was to have a comfortable shave - now I want much more!

 

[Esox]

I don't find the Merkur 34C horrible to shave with (I haven't had a rough or tuggy shave since the first 2 or 3) and as soon as I changed the blade from a Shark SS to a Gillette 7 O'clock Green, the shave was much smoother. I'm currently using an Astra SP and this provides an even smoother shave. I can honestly say I've never had shaves as good as these in over 25 years of shaving. Tonight I managed to get a very nice lather and was rewarded with a lovely, irritation free shave. My skin just felt nice and cool and slightly tight. I'm fairly confident that I'll eventually be able to achieve a comfortable and close shave with this razor, but having now experienced some very nice shaves, I'm starting to wonder just how good they'll be when I get really good at this. Of course, this means I start to fantasize about other razors, blades, soaps - no, not fantasizing, planning! I just want to make sure, as far as is possible, that I get the right razor (s) for me. Blades and soaps are less of a problem in this regard, since I can buy samples and experiment without having to worry too much about being wasteful. The more I shave, the more it seems to occupy my thoughts (I think about shaving a lot!) and so I seem to be spending a fair amount of time here on B&B in the company of others, whom I can only assume have similar 'problems' to mine. The strange thing is, in the beginning all I really wanted was to have a comfortable shave - now I want much more!

If you're happy with the 34C, stick with it. If theres a weakness in it, you'll find it eventually. At that point, understand the weakness you identified and find a suitable design that will eliminate that weakness.

I'm fairly confident that I'll eventually be able to achieve a comfortable and close shave with this razor, but having now experienced some very nice shaves, I'm starting to wonder just how good they'll be when I get really good at this. Of course, this means I start to fantasize about other razors, blades, soaps - no, not fantasizing, planning!

We've all been there. Its normal. Honest! lol

Dont underestimate the difference the right soap can make for your skin. Once I found soaps that suited my skin better, my shaves improved again, drastically. Wickham 1912, CRS, PdP and Mama Bears are the top of the heap for me....so far. SV awaits...

 

[TinyT]

While we may share similar notions of what a perfect result is, how we need to get there might differ wildly.

Mike tends to shave directly ATG every 48 hours. That doesn't work as well as a "conventional" 3 pass shave for me. My skin deflects too much to go directly ATG, which in turn screws up the angles in my preferred mild razors. I can do it with a straight or shavette though, as they're less finnicky over angle and you don't have to worry about the edge lifting as you do when there's a cap and comb in play. Also, as the hair is cut from three sides on a three pass shave, and has more of a "bullet" tip, I get less ingrowns from my frizzy beard growing back out.

So as I go the three pass route, I encounter less cutting resistance than I would directly ATG. I don't need rigidity as much as others might, and can enjoy a little give in the blade, be that DE or straight format. Just like with driving, different terrain calls for different levels of suspension. Mine is fairly smooth, but there are a few undulations. I'm only shaving though, not trying to plane my face smooth.

Don't let any of this detract from YOUR perfect shave though. You may well benefit from that rigidity. You may also change your opinion about that later. However, everyone else's shaves are irrelevant to a large extent. They're not shaving your face. Find your own perfection, but keep an open mind as to what that means, and how many different routes/methods/kits get you there in comfort.

There's no may about it, I do change my opinion. A lot! Luckily I'm not worried about contradicting myself, it's just my way of learning. The funny thing is, for everything I've said, it's always been my experience that theory is just that; Theory. It's when I try to put it into practice that my best laid plans...well, you know how this goes! But I do love theory.

I am curious as to what your preferred mild razors are and whether you find them efficient? I'm not talking about a 1 pass ATG here, the conventional 3 pass shave is still way beyond me! I'm currently doing 2 passes WTG, although they are surprisingly close and fairly consistently comfortable.

By the way, 'The Wanderers Guide To DE Shaving' was responsible for my first comfortable DE shave (I have it bookmarked!) so I owe you an enormous thanks in that regard. It makes for very instructive reading and it goes without saying that your understanding of shaving theory and philosophy far outweighs mine. I am having fun trying to catch up though!

 

[AimlessWanderer]

There's no may about it, I do change my opinion. A lot! Luckily I'm not worried about contradicting myself, it's just my way of learning. The funny thing is, for everything I've said, it's always been my experience that theory is just that; Theory. It's when I try to put it into practice that my best laid plans...well, you know how this goes! But I do love theory.

I am curious as to what your preferred mild razors are and whether you find them efficient? I'm not talking about a 1 pass ATG here, the conventional 3 pass shave is still way beyond me! I'm currently doing 2 passes WTG, although they are surprisingly close and fairly consistently comfortable.

By the way, 'The Wanderers Guide To DE Shaving' was responsible for my first comfortable DE shave (I have it bookmarked!) so I owe you an enormous thanks in that regard. It makes for very instructive reading and it goes without saying that your understanding of shaving theory and philosophy far outweighs mine. I am having fun trying to catch up though!

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad I was able to help.

My first 20 years of DE shaving was wit the black plastic Wilkinson Sword Classic, which is far from efficient. It's a very mild razor, and needs deftly handling to get a close finish. Most of today's shaves are with an Edwin Jagger DE3D14, and occasionally I switch to a Merkur 985, both of which are more efficient than the Wilkinson, but still mild.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I have no idea how to answer these questions, Wes.

These days I shave almost entirely with a straight razor.

My favorite safety razor is my Schick Type E-2 open to clean. I also have a fondness for some of the AC safety razors particularly the SS DLC Hawk. I like several slants. I have a slew of regular DE razors, too, and can shave with all of them, but much prefer some and dislike a few.

I like all the Fatips and Fatip-made razors I've tried, but my favorite is the Mk1 Grande (good luck on finding one). I like the Gillette Old Type best of all the Gillettes I've used. I like the 2013 R41. I like the RR SLOC. Others, too, of course, but these are notable favorites.

If I had to boil down the parameters which I think important to me in DE razors they'd be the following:

• I like blade exposure.
• I like no gap.
• I like no guard span.
• I like a fairly fat handle (not thin like the Fatip Piccolo).
• I like the blade to be rigid.
• There are exceptions to all of these parameters. Some razors are just good even though maybe they shouldn't be.

I shave with safety razors at a steep angle or the design (neutral) angle.

Probably none of that is particularly helpful. You have to try things to be sure. However, unless you dislike the razor you're using why change? Well, we all know why, but you get my drift.

A Fixed Four is a great teaching tool.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[TinyT]

I have no idea how to answer these questions, Wes.

These days I shave almost entirely with a straight razor.

My favorite safety razor is my Schick Type E-2 open to clean. I also have a fondness for some of the AC safety razors particularly the SS DLC Hawk. I like several slants. I have a slew of regular DE razors, too, and can shave with all of them, but much prefer some and dislike a few.

I like all the Fatips and Fatip-made razors I've tried, but my favorite is the Mk1 Grande (good luck on finding one). I like the Gillette Old Type best of all the Gillettes I've used. I like the 2013 R41. I like the RR SLOC. Others, too, of course, but these are notable favorites.

If I had to boil down the parameters which I think important to me in DE razors they'd be the following:

• I like blade exposure.
• I like no gap.
• I like no guard span.
• I like a fairly fat handle (not thin like the Fatip Piccolo).
• I like the blade to be rigid.
• There are exceptions to all of these parameters. Some razors are just good even though maybe they shouldn't be.

I shave with safety razors at a steep angle or the design (neutral) angle.

Probably none of that is particularly helpful. You have to try things to be sure. However, unless you dislike the razor you're using why change? Well, we all know why, but you get my drift.

A Fixed Four is a great teaching tool.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Thanks for the advice Jim, I think I'm starting to get it now. It's all relative, and subjective right? Rigidity can be good, but flex can have benefits too. The thing is, I spend most of my life dealing with pure thought, and of course shaving is not like that; you can't theorise your beard off! In fact, I'm generally completely useless at anything practical and the fact that I appear to be having success with this shaving lark in such short space of time has really surprised me. Maybe it's why I find it so compelling.

But some of this is difficult to get for me to get my head around. Razors can vary from mild to aggresive - this seems to be a logical scale of measurement. However, it now seems that the term 'aggressive' should really be efficient, at least in some cases. This is perfectly agreeable. But then, the opposite to efficient is in-efficient. So could we then have a razor that is mild but efficient (sounds good), aggresive and efficient (scary, but still good), mild and in-efficient (not so good) and aggresive and in-effficient (sounds terrible)? And who would make and sell an aggresive in-efficient razor? Might some people want one?

And the blade thing is odd as well. Most shavers seem to suggest that unlike razors, blades are not described as mild or aggresive - rather smooth to sharp. Now the opposite to sharp is dull, not smooth and the opposite to smooth is rough. So we arrive at a similar problem. A blade can be smooth and sharp (very good), rough and sharp (not so good, but effective), dull and smooth (ok) and finally, dull and rough (not very good). So far, I have used a Shark SS which was rough and didn't appear sharp, a Gillette 7 O'Clock green, which was sharper and smoother and I'm currently using and Astra SP which is sharper and smoother still. So my question now is, is sharper smoother? For the first 2 or 3 shaves, the Astra seemed to give some very slight, post shave feel - not irritation as such, but felt incredibly smooth mid shave, and still does. I'm tempted to blame any issue on myself rather than the blade, but then, what about the Shark? Of course, I know the answer to this can really only be found by following Al's advice, which is to try it out and see what works for me. As he so elegantly stated '..it depends'. It still puzzles me though.

Finally, I do have a question that might be a bit easier to answer. What is meant by guard span? Is this the space between top cap and guard?

And, is the fixed four a reference to the 34C?

Wes

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Thanks for the advice Jim, I think I'm starting to get it now. It's all relative, and subjective right? Rigidity can be good, but flex can have benefits too. The thing is, I spend most of my life dealing with pure thought, and of course shaving is not like that; you can't theorize your beard off! In fact, I'm generally completely useless at anything practical and the fact that I appear to be having success with this shaving lark in such short space of time has really surprised me. Maybe it's why I find it so compelling.

But some of this is difficult to get for me to get my head around. Razors can vary from mild to aggressive - this seems to be a logical scale of measurement. However, it now seems that the term 'aggressive' should really be efficient, at least in some cases. This is perfectly agreeable. But then, the opposite to efficient is in-efficient. So could we then have a razor that is mild but efficient (sounds good), aggressive and efficient (scary, but still good), mild and in-efficient (not so good) and aggressive and inefficient (sounds terrible)? And who would make and sell an aggressive in-efficient razor? Might some people want one?

And the blade thing is odd as well. Most shavers seem to suggest that unlike razors, blades are not described as mild or aggressive - rather smooth to sharp. Now the opposite to sharp is dull, not smooth and the opposite to smooth is rough. So we arrive at a similar problem. A blade can be smooth and sharp (very good), rough and sharp (not so good, but effective), dull and smooth (ok) and finally, dull and rough (not very good). So far, I have used a Shark SS which was rough and didn't appear sharp, a Gillette 7 O'Clock green, which was sharper and smoother and I'm currently using and Astra SP which is sharper and smoother still. So my question now is, is sharper smoother? For the first 2 or 3 shaves, the Astra seemed to give some very slight, post shave feel - not irritation as such, but felt incredibly smooth mid shave, and still does. I'm tempted to blame any issue on myself rather than the blade, but then, what about the Shark? Of course, I know the answer to this can really only be found by following Al's advice, which is to try it out and see what works for me. As he so elegantly stated '..it depends'. It still puzzles me though.

Finally, I do have a question that might be a bit easier to answer. What is meant by guard span? Is this the space between top cap and guard?

And, is the fixed four a reference to the 34C?

Wes

Good thinking...

This will help with terms such as guard span.

I assume you know a Fixed Four means a month of using only one kit.

1. One safety razor.
2. One blade (changed to a new blade of the same brand, etc. as needed).
3. One soap.
4. One brush.

Same kit every shave for a month. Fixed Four. Can be fun, but might not be, but is always a learning experience.

I'm not saying you should do a Fixed, but it's a great way to learn more about your kit and technique.



Not everyone uses terms in the same way, but...

To me, the only acceptable way for me to talk about the razor's ability to shave you well [in terms of closeness and smoothness (like BBS)] is to use the terms efficient and inefficient.

To me, an aggressive razor is prone to jump out of the bushes and bite me.

A razor can also tend to shave in manner where the shave feels smooth. Or, rough.

Everyone doesn't use the same terms or mean the same thing by terms.

There are razors which are mild (the opposite of aggressive) but also inefficient. For me, the Feather AS-D2 is one of these.

My RR SS Stealth Slant razor feels like it's very smooth shaving with it but it also sometimes jumps out of nowhere and bites me.

Obviously, technique matters in all of that stuff, but I'm assuming good technique and dialing in the angle reasonably well. Some razors can apparently be used at a shallow angle or the design angle (neutral angle) or at a steep angle. Guess which angle I like?

Some razors must be used only within a very narrow angle range.

One not so much discussed but widely known descriptor applied to safety razors tells me how crazy most of us are. The term is boring. As in, I have a Schick Krona razor. What a great shaver. Schick really nailed it but shaving with it is, well, boring.

You're right about blades.

I am always - with DE blades, with injector blades, with AC blades, with straight razor edges - seeking a very sharp but also very smooth edge which gives me a close, smooth, and comfortable shave. Some blades are more efficient than others I think because they're sharper.

I'm a Damn Comfortable Shave seeker.

• Comfortable during the shave.
• Comfortable immediately after the shave.
• Comfortable until the next shave.

Blades are very individual.

Feather DE blades are, for me, very very sharp and nice to shave with. I always like the shave during the shave. However, after the shave I always hate the blade. At least so far. It always feels like it was "too much."

I believe a blade has to be very sharp to even qualify as a razor blade. Some - think Graham-Field - don't. Some are sharper than others.



I've found one blade which work across the board for me in any DE razor (other than the Feather AS-D2). It's both very smooth feeling (after the first shave with a new one) and quite sharp as I experience its shave. Not everyone agrees with me of course nor should they.

If I decide to try my Feather AS-D2 again I'm going to put either a Feather blade into it or the other Japanese DE blade (the wife blade) called a Kai (is that the right spelling?). The razor and blade are supposed to and were designed to work well together (by Feather).

Much of all of this at least in terms of getting better at it is experiential. Entirely so, but only if you're paying attention and also not jumping about too very much (which I'm prone to).

It really is remarkably intriguing, isn't it, this shaving stuff.

Happy shaves,

jim

 

[TinyT]

I assume you know a Fixed Four means a month of using only one kit.

I did not know that, thanks. Actually, I've been doing close to this since I started. I only have 1 razor and 1 brush so that takes care of that!

As for the blades, I've got 6 different types to try and I plan to use each one until it either stops cutting or gives me 2 really bad shaves in a row.

Soap, strangely enough, has given me the most trouble. I tried a tub of Cella - smelled great, lathers great but causes mild itchiness - nothing drastic but enough to be bothersome. Next up was Rasozero Spiffero. Lathers well but the smell....it must be an acquired taste - not the Proraso-like eucalyptus and menthol I was expecting. But more annoyingly, this one really caused itching and after my 2nd and 3rd tries I actually felt a little sick. So I'm on to another tub of trusty Proraso white and I'll be trying samples in the future to avoid a repeat of this.

I've just checked out the RR Wunderbar Slant, the new version of the stealth Slant - the head looks somewhat similar to those on the Mamba and Babysmooth. Everything I've read about RR razors suggests that most of them are very well built, with very accurate tolerances, much like your AS-D2 - that's why I mentioned the Babysmooth in my original post. I'm wondering if a razor built this way may be better equiped to provide a smooth, yet efficient shave. Again, experience is the best way to find out but buying razors is more costly than blades or soap if you make a mistake.

Strangely enough, before I read your first response on this thread I was reading the last 2 pages of 'Damn Comfortable Shave' (I'll start from the beginning when I've caught up with this one) and I must admit, I didn't expect to see the Straights. Also, like you, I'm a damn comfortable shave seeker - but I can't for one moment see myself with a Straight Razor. But then I never thought I'd be this nuts about shaving at all, let alone joining B&B (I don't normally do social media), so who knows?

You're right - it certainly is intriguing, and thanks for the explanations; it's a big help.

By the way....no guard span. Does that mean you shave without an insurance policy?

Wes

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I did not know that, thanks. Actually, I've been doing close to this since I started. I only have 1 razor and 1 brush so that takes care of that!

View attachment 1025489

As for the blades, I've got 6 different types to try and I plan to use each one until it either stops cutting or gives me 2 really bad shaves in a row.

Soap, strangely enough, has given me the most trouble. I tried a tub of Cella - smelled great, lathers great but causes mild itchiness - nothing drastic but enough to be bothersome. Next up was Rasozero Spiffero. Lathers well but the smell....it must be an acquired taste - not the Proraso-like eucalyptus and menthol I was expecting. But more annoyingly, this one really caused itching and after my 2nd and 3rd tries I actually felt a little sick. So I'm on to another tub of trusty Proraso white and I'll be trying samples in the future to avoid a repeat of this.

I've just checked out the RR Wunderbar Slant, the new version of the stealth Slant - the head looks somewhat similar to those on the Mamba and Babysmooth. Everything I've read about RR razors suggests that most of them are very well built, with very accurate tolerances, much like your AS-D2 - that's why I mentioned the Babysmooth in my original post. I'm wondering if a razor built this way may be better equipped to provide a smooth, yet efficient shave. Again, experience is the best way to find out but buying razors is more costly than blades or soap if you make a mistake.

Strangely enough, before I read your first response on this thread I was reading the last 2 pages of 'Damn Comfortable Shave' (I'll start from the beginning when I've caught up with this one) and I must admit, I didn't expect to see the Straights. Also, like you, I'm a damn comfortable shave seeker - but I can't for one moment see myself with a Straight Razor. But then I never thought I'd be this nuts about shaving at all, let alone joining B&B (I don't normally do social media), so who knows?

You're right - it certainly is intriguing, and thanks for the explanations; it's a big help.

By the way....no guard span. Does that mean you shave without an insurance policy?

Wes

I first tried straight razors way way back in college. I had a fraternity brother who'd been taught by his grandfather. I seriously sliced myself up. Should have gone to a plastic surgeon. Didn't and have a not visible to others scar under my chin. It cured me, but not forever.

When I came here I did not dream I'd shave with a SR. I thought it was simply too dangerous a device.

Make no mistake. You do have to do it right. Even more so you have to avoid doing it wrong, but that's really not a hard set of skills to learn. The information is out there (although misinformation is also out there). The tuition is high.

So, why the cutthroat razors? Paradoxically, straight razors are more comfortable for me. Also I cut myself less with them (as compared to DE razors and probably AC razors, but not as compared with the Type E2 Schick). Straights are interesting to use, and very satisfying in a peculiar way.

Thanks to the contributions of many guys the Damn Comfortable Thread is filled with all sorts of information about all sorts of mostly shaving related matters. It's also reflective of my journey of course so in many ways it's a story of what might not work for you and didn't work for me. It's been a lot of fun.

I don't know the BS or Wunderbar. Meaning I don't have 'em and haven't used them. Probably others have had similar reactions to some soaps and can help you. By your spelling I'd guess you're in the UK? Connaught and other places there have some great soaps. I've tried most of the Italians other than the most expensive soaps unavailable in samples. I'm also a big fan of Wickham 1912. Few of the soaps I've tried have been duds (exception: Tabac). I've also tried ABC (great but not great enough to pay the premium) and SV (worth the premium). Generally I like the American artisans (some of them) better. I used MWF for a while, too; good stuff if you can lather it. I used a great Dutch soap a few times, too. Variety of choices is not the problem.

You don't need to buy everything in spite of the behavior of many insane gentlemen such as me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Esox]

I forgot to post my last shave with Wickham Shangri La.

I'm even more confused now. I smelled nothing. Maybe, a slight hint of Gingerbread or Cinnamon, maybe. Outside of that I smelled nothing, at all. Not even a basic soap smell.

Same great performance though!
______________________

I just finished shaving.

Grande/Feather (2).
CRS Sandalwood.

Go order some CRS. Then, you'll understand.

Back to the MMOC next shave.