Level of sharpness *help*

[The_Pastor]

Gentlemen I need your advice and help.

My problem is, that I cant seem to get my fixed straights to be as sharp as my Disposable straight Feather.

I am not a total beginner in honing, but by all means I am no expert.

I set the bevel on a 1 K, then move to a 3K, 8K, 12 K, then I do 10 laps on 1 Micron diamond spray on hard wool felt, then 7 laps on 0.5 micron, then 5 laps on 0.25 micron. The I do laps on unpasted linnen, and then strop on plain leather.

I check the bevel all the time in the process, on do the thumbnail test and the light test, and everything looks fine.

I can shave with the razor after i honed/stropped it, but its just not the same as with a Feather. The level of sharpness is be all means not the same.

I would like to know, wether or not a fixed blade can get to be as sharp as a disposable feather blade. I might be wasting my time with this.

My razors are Dovo renaissance/Micarta/Bismarck and a Thiers Issard.

I am getting really frustrated.

Do I need to get another brand razor for more sharpness?

What I will do now, is send two of my razors to two different honemeisters, and see what they feel like when they come back.

 

[Munxcub]

From what I understand, the answer is no. You can't get it as sharp as a feather. However, if you look into the "sharpest razor in the world, 0.125 CBN" thread, you might be able to find a guy that can get it as close as possible.

 

[azmark]

I think the important question is what is the results with the razors after you shave.

 

[bluemantra]

Gentlemen I need your advice and help.

My problem is, that I cant seem to get my fixed straights to be as sharp as my Disposable straight Feather.

I am not a total beginner in honing, but by all means I am no expert.

I set the bevel on a 1 K, then move to a 3K, 8K, 12 K, then I do 10 laps on 1 Micron diamond spray on hard wool felt, then 7 laps on 0.5 micron, then 5 laps on 0.25 micron. The I do laps on unpasted linnen, and then strop on plain leather.

I check the bevel all the time in the process, on do the thumbnail test and the light test, and everything looks fine.

I can shave with the razor after i honed/stropped it, but its just not the same as with a Feather. The level of sharpness is be all means not the same.

I would like to know, wether or not a fixed blade can get to be as sharp as a disposable feather blade. I might be wasting my time with this.

My razors are Dovo renaissance/Micarta/Bismarck and a Thiers Issard.

I am getting really frustrated.

Do I need to get another brand razor for more sharpness?

What I will do now, is send two of my razors to two different honemeisters, and see what they feel like when they come back.

Just curious, are you disappointed with the actual shave? Or are you simply chasing the sharpness level? Seems to me like you have a fairly good setup there that should yield excellent results.

 

[The_Pastor]

I think the important question is what is the results with the razors after you shave.

The result is not as good with my fixed. I enjoy the shave and postshave much more with feather stright or DE.

Just curious, are you disappointed with the actual shave? Or are you simply chasing the sharpness level? Seems to me like you have a fairly good setup there that should yield excellent results.

Yes I definitly am. I mean, I had been shaving with straights for about 1 year and ½, when I got the feather. The shaves where decent, but when I got the Feather it just felt SO much better, and now I feel that going to a fixed blade is a step down in comfortness, but in the shave and postshave.

 

[superbleu]

Curious to see how the razors do when they come back from their honing trip.

One recco I do have is don't do the tnt test after the initial bevel setting. Not sure if you are or not, as it's not clear in your write up, but I'm hesitant to do any type of testing of the edge during a honing progression with anything other than hair after the initial bevel is set.

 

[rajagra]

One recco I do have is don't do the tnt test after the initial bevel setting. Not sure if you are or not, as it's not clear in your write up, but I'm hesitant to do any type of testing of the edge during a honing progression with anything other than hair after the initial bevel is set.

I was wondering that too. Normally you shouldn't do the TNT once you've moved beyond the 4K stage.

 

[Seraphim]

I think you may be doing too much with the pastes progression.

From the 12k you should be able to go right to the 0.25 as your finisher. I was not overly impressed with hard wool as a pastes base, as it appeared to be a bit too fluffy which tended to round off the edge more than what I get using a flat cotton canvas belt as my pasted strop.


But, even before you get to that point, the MOST important thing is to get the bevel set correctly, or it will never get ubersharp. I set the bevel with DMT1200, and I don't stop with it until I get a silent HHT off of that. I then go to 3um then 1um lapping film and finish on chromox/0.5um diamond on a hanging strop.

That said, Feathers are in their own sharpness category, which regular razors cannot go it seems.

 

[bluemantra]

I would try some variations to see if you can get some different results. Maybe just go to the .5 micron off the 12k and strop linen/leather and shave and then try shaving just off the 12k with some good stropping on linen/leather. Just out of curiosity what kind of stones are you using?

 

[honed]

A straight razor will never get Feather sharp. No matter what.

 

[MaritimeFanatic]

Another divider between the machine-made blades and fixed blades is that the machine ones are often coated for increased glide. Many - I believe Feather is included - have teflon coatings that make the blades feel much sharper. I have played around with DE razors, and while they just glide through my beard, I still can't seem to get the same level of shave than with a traditional straight. I haven't tried the Feather straight though............you make it sound very nice!

 

[jendeindustries]

+1 you can' get a blade as "sharp" as a feather, but you should be able to match or surpass its smoothness with your setup.

The major issue is the geometry - The DE and feather blades are super thin, and the angle works to be about 10 degrees while most straights hover in the 18-22 degree area.

The teflon coating goes a long way, too. If you look at a DE blade under magnification, there is only about a 3K edge (this may vary depending on the brand). That adds to the smoothness, but helps explain weepers, IMO.

I also agree with Seraphim about the felt - I like Balsa myself for my sprays and compounds. I only use pasted strops for mid-shave touching up. (But if I have to use them, the blade is going to get redone on the hones anyway)

As for your razor brands, you should be getting a very good smoothness off the 12K super with them.

Pushing for extreme sharpness conflicts with super smoothness after .5 micron finishes IMO. Instead of diamonds, perhaps Chromium Oxide will get your smoothness to a desirable level. Hand American .5 is very good stuff.

If you want the extreme, Honed's thread about the .125 micron CBN sharpest razor (link) in the world gives detailed accounts from a few people. It's super sharp, but smooth. I've made the comment that its sharpness is like the feather blades, only the edge doesn't kill you on the ATG. A couple of others also made the same comparison. It might be worth trying.

 

[ken123]

Well I think you guys have the problem pretty sorted out already. The feathers have a more acute geometry - 10 vs 18+ degrees, but perhaps a finish in the 3k range, so you can certainly improve on the finish but competing on the geometry is not going to be easy. Of course, I can't help but wonder just what a feather blade brought to an ultra refined edge would be like - 1/8 micron feather blades do sound rather frighteningly sharp. Now I do have compounds that would let you go 10x finer than a quarter micron finish (0.025 microns), but this still doesn't make the angles more acute. With knives, I've gone as acute as 3.0° per side at submicron finish levels. Extremely sharp but extremely delicate, and beyond any practical sort of edge.

I could well imagine thinning the blade behind the edge a bit to that acute of an angle by going lower than the spine angle, but this is probably a blasphemous idea.

---
Ken

 

[honed]

Well I think you guys have the problem pretty sorted out already. The feathers have a more acute geometry - 10 vs 18+ degrees, but perhaps a finish in the 3k range, so you can certainly improve on the finish but competing on the geometry is not going to be easy. Of course, I can't help but wonder just what a feather blade brought to an ultra refined edge would be like - 1/8 micron feather blades do sound rather frighteningly sharp. Now I do have compounds that would let you go 10x finer than a quarter micron finish (0.025 microns), but this still doesn't make the angles more acute. With knives, I've gone as acute as 3.0° per side at submicron finish levels. Extremely sharp but extremely delicate, and beyond any practical sort of edge.

I could well imagine thinning the blade behind the edge a bit to that acute of an angle by going lower than the spine angle, but this is probably a blasphemous idea.

---
Ken

That is an interesting idea.
It would probably produce a sort of "disposable" edge, because I don't think such an edge would hold up for much more then one shave.

But interesting indeed...

 

[ken123]

I agree - it wouldn't be something to recommend because it would probably be too delicate for the real world. I should have emphasized that more clearly.

---
Ken

 

[The_Pastor]

Thx for the answers gentlemen. I will remember them in my search for the holy grail.

 

[Munxcub]

How about Seraphim pasted stropping his feathers?

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=187362

 

[The_Pastor]

I would try some variations to see if you can get some different results. Maybe just go to the .5 micron off the 12k and strop linen/leather and shave and then try shaving just off the 12k with some good stropping on linen/leather. Just out of curiosity what kind of stones are you using?

My 12 K is a Naniwa, the other two are combostones from Zwilling: 0.250/1 K and 3/8 K.

 

[Wid]

I use the Naniwa 12K the .25 micron diamond on felt and it seems very sharp imo. That Feather must be out of this world sharp.

 

[Seraphim]

Well I think you guys have the problem pretty sorted out already. The feathers have a more acute geometry - 10 vs 18+ degrees, but perhaps a finish in the 3k range, so you can certainly improve on the finish but competing on the geometry is not going to be easy. Of course, I can't help but wonder just what a feather blade brought to an ultra refined edge would be like - 1/8 micron feather blades do sound rather frighteningly sharp. Now I do have compounds that would let you go 10x finer than a quarter micron finish (0.025 microns), but this still doesn't make the angles more acute. With knives, I've gone as acute as 3.0° per side at submicron finish levels. Extremely sharp but extremely delicate, and beyond any practical sort of edge.

I could well imagine thinning the blade behind the edge a bit to that acute of an angle by going lower than the spine angle, but this is probably a blasphemous idea.

---
Ken

I disagree about the finish on a Feather being in the 3k range, all the scope pics I've ever taken are dead Super smooth (I'll look them up to post as supporting evidence).
EDIT: here are some http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2248636&postcount=29

I am intrigued by the concept of the initial bevel being quite narrower than that of a regular straight. And the effect that may have on the Feathers feeling so sharp. According to Tim Zowada's site the final cutting bevel on a Feather is about 25 degrees. Which I believe is the reason behind the attempts at making a second bevel when honing a traditional straight.
Link here for reference:http://www.tzknives.com/twobevel.html