Is clothing or grooming a requirement to define a gentleman?

[alex2363]

You do understand that the no option is for people who don't think a certain type of clothing matters right? Meaning it's not a package deal.

Yes, it still is not too far off ........

 

[alex2363]

I'm going to hate to ask a question because you don't seem to like to answer certain ones, but how many people do you think this really applies to?

Meaning, how many people on the planet choose to dress worse than they could on purpose?

More clarification. A man has a closet full of clothes ranging from work clothes, to yard work clothes ,and everything in between. How many people would choose to wear something worse than what they could on purpose for whatever the task?

Really? I have answered all the questions over and over, not sure that you understand me or you just have selective understanding.

 

[alex2363]

I'm going to hate to ask a question because you don't seem to like to answer certain ones, but how many people do you think this really applies to?

Meaning, how many people on the planet choose to dress worse than they could on purpose?

More clarification. A man has a closet full of clothes ranging from work clothes, to yard work clothes ,and everything in between. How many people would choose to wear something worse than what they could on purpose for whatever the task?

Thats an analytical question that has nothing to do with the poll or issue in general. I am not going to do a survey on that because it seems that they have an option to conform accordingly.

If they don't it doesn't have anything to do with the issue or poll question. If a person chooses to go out in public in dirty work clothes and is not working, then there may be image issues that come into play. Even if he is a polite nice person many people may object to his image. Some may even find it repulsive according to the severity of the garb.

 

[alex2363]

Probably not but that's why they are exceptional. I appreciate the sex pistols (and most all of that old school punk) for nearly the same reason I appreciate the gentleman, the hero, etc...they are outside of the mainstream and that is a wonderful thing.
I was kind of into the punk rock scene for better and worse for some of my youth. As I've grown older I aspire to be a gentlemen for better and worse. To me they are largely the same with some tweaks in code, ethics, behavior, etc. Neither are or were common. Both are a rejection of the norm and an attempt to do something better.
It's a complicated issue. A pet peeve of mine is going to a funeral and seeing people show up in "street clothes"; unshaven, like they are headed to breakfast at Denny's afterward. At the same time I think funerals are kind of stupid. I have lost people close to me, I just don't understand why we have all the ritual. To me it's a lot like a large wedding, largely unnecessary. But if you choose to participate I think you ought to show some respect. Dress for it.
This is where it gets odd. Punk rock was outside of the mainstream due to it's hateful seething rejection of values seen as useless, greedy, lazy, boring etc. That was my take on it anyway. Behaving like a gentleman is outside of the mainstream because it embraces the idea that you move gracefully through the world around you even if you don't 100% agree with it's rituals, institutions, expectations. It's based on respect for yourself and those around you. I don't always succeed in this but I try.
In a world where people go out in public wearing sweatpant suits, unshowered and with little to no regard to those around them then dressing sharp, staying clean and showing a marginal amount of respect for those around you is counter culture.

TL, DR; I don't know if dress and grooming is necessary to define a gentleman but it is a symptom of it, by my definition anyway.

I too was punk rock, Goth and somewhat hip hop in my youth. But I changed to a proper image as expected by society to a more gentlemanly look. I still abide.

 

[Rockminer]

Yes, it still is not too far off ........

So not even half of your predicted 90% is close to you?

 

[Rockminer]

Really? I have answered all the questions over and over, not sure that you understand me or you just have selective understanding.

You haven't answered this one

So you would agree with this statement.

"As long as each man does the best he can with what he has available,clothing wise, he qualifies as a gentleman if the other requirements are met as well"

Granted, I didn't specifically quote you but I think it's obvious who I'm talking to considering you have the second most number of posts at 33 in this thread, to my 46, with the next closest person is at 9.

Edit: I decided to edit the post I made after this one so I decided to clarify this one too. The question I asked you is asked under the assumption that most everyone dresses to their economic status.

 

[Sipahi]

You can also assume there's a certain bias on this forum. Here are folks who enjoy classic shaving gear, fancy pens, nice watches, fine liquor, and still almost 70% vote no on this.

 

[Rockminer]

Thats an analytical question that has nothing to do with the poll or issue in general. I am not going to do a survey on that because it seems that they have an option to conform accordingly.

If they don't it doesn't have anything to do with the issue or poll question. If a person chooses to go out in public in dirty work clothes and is not working, then there may be image issues that come into play. Even if he is a polite nice person many people may object to his image. Some may even find it repulsive according to the severity of the garb.

Edit:

I had a different post here, but realized that it would probably end up with you telling me that's not what you mean, so I'm going to try a different approach.

It's been my opinion from the start that you and I agree that it's not a requirement. I think we both believe that people who can't afford to dress, like the upper end of society, would be good if they did their best. Where we disagree slightly is, you're saying that if one has the means, it's expected that they dress accordingly. I'm saying that I don't believe there's a significant percentage of the population that doesn't dress to their economic status. I ask you questions about it and you say that's not what you mean, or you reply with the above post and say it has nothing to do with the poll or issue, yet if given the chance you would like to reword the question to this

I think the poll question should have been more insightful or informative so it could yield more fair balanced vote results. ..

Such as:

If a person could afford to groom or dress properly but he doesn't, should he be considered gentlemanly.

Isn't that the exact same thing I'm trying to debate with you when I ask the questions directly related to you proposed new poll question?

 

[Lmarkow]

Ask an open group of people if there's some other group (or subset) that they agree is somehow better than them, and the majority will respond that the "better" characteristic is unimportant. Your poll, by its nature and who you've asked is stacked.

Is a "gentleman" who wears nice clothing a "better," or more of a, "gentleman" than a "gentleman" who is somehow poorly dressed? The majority voting will not meet the "better" standard, as then that standard would not be "better."

Flog away!

 

[Rockminer]

Ask an open group of people if there's some other group (or subset) that they agree is somehow better than them, and the majority will respond that the "better" characteristic is unimportant. Your poll, by its nature and who you've asked is stacked.

Is a "gentleman" who wears nice clothing a "better," or more of a, "gentleman" than a "gentleman" who is somehow poorly dressed? The majority voting will not meet the "better" standard, as then that standard would not be "better."

Flog away!

Or, I could ask the "better" group (this forum) if being better is important and get almost 70% say no.

 

[Lmarkow]

Or, I could ask the "better" group (this forum) if being better is important and get almost 70% say no.

Ask the same question in the Hab about the same standard, and you'll see that flatten.

 

[Rockminer]

Ask the same question in the Hab about the same standard, and you'll see that flatten.

You're seriously telling me that I asked the question in the wrong forum? It's your opinion that people of the Hab will only answer question posted in the Hab?

 

[Lmarkow]

You're seriously telling me that I asked the question in the wrong forum? It's your opinion that people of the Hab will only answer question posted in the Hab?

Nope, just that there's a better class of well-dressed gentlemen over there, so they would have been more likely to vote clothing matters than the more democratic Barbershop. lol

 

[Rockminer]

Nope, just that there's a better class of well-dressed gentlemen over there, so they would have been more likely to vote clothing matters than the more democratic Barbershop. lol

If they can't step out of their forum to vote, when they can clearly see it, well....

 

[Lmarkow]

If they can't step out of their forum to vote, when they can clearly see it, well....

Polls are for the unwashed masses.

 

[Sipahi]

Ask the same question in the Hab about the same standard, and you'll see that flatten.

Or set up a poll asking the same question on RevLeft dot com and see what happens to the yes-side.

 

[Rockminer]

Polls are for the unwashed masses.

Jeeves, there's another poll about clothing, get my gun.

 

[cleanshaved]

just stop and ask yourself would Jeeves approve..........

Jeeves: I assumed it had got into your wardrobe by mistake, sir, or else that it has been placed there by your enemies.
Bertie Wooster: I will have you know, Jeeves, that I bought this in Cannes!
Jeeves: And wore it, sir?
Bertie Wooster: Every night at the Casino. Beautiful women used to try and catch my eye!
Jeeves: Presumably they thought you were a waiter, sir.

********************************************************************

Rockmeteller Todd: Good Lord, I'd have to dress for dinner every night! I won't do it. I can't do it! Do you realize, I don't usually get out of my pajamas till five in the afternoon, and then I just put on a sweater, like this?
Bertie Wooster: Don't listen, Jeeves.Jeeves moans
Bertie Wooster: Jeeves?Jeeves, in anguish, sits on a nearby tree stump, face cupped in hands
Bertie Wooster: I'm sorry, Jeeves, you shouldn't have heard that. [pats Jeeves on the shoulder]
Jeeves: [recomposing himself] I shall be better directly, sir.

 

[alex2363]

So not even half of your predicted 90% is close to you?

Only 199 voted out of 63,000 members, maybe if more voted.

 

[alex2363]

Edit:

I had a different post here, but realized that it would probably end up with you telling me that's not what you mean, so I'm going to try a different approach.

It's been my opinion from the start that you and I agree that it's not a requirement. I think we both believe that people who can't afford to dress, like the upper end of society, would be good if they did their best. Where we disagree slightly is, you're saying that if one has the means, it's expected that they dress accordingly. I'm saying that I don't believe there's a significant percentage of the population that doesn't dress to their economic status. I ask you questions about it and you say that's not what you mean, or you reply with the above post and say it has nothing to do with the poll or issue, yet if given the chance you would like to reword the question to this



Isn't that the exact same thing I'm trying to debate with you when I ask the questions directly related to you proposed new poll question?

Yes, But as i stated recently. you worded the poll in a way to favor your outcome. I said if the person can afford it to dress properly...... your poll doesn't mention that. Your question Is-clothing-or-grooming-a-requirement-to-define-a-gentleman----- is geared to persuade a straight no answer since it seems that answering yes would entail certain unfairness or unsympathetic thinking due to many economic factors that depends on proper dress and groom. The different wording would have fairly balanced decision and voting.
Such as
Is-clothing-or-grooming-a-requirement-to-define-a-gentleman if the person can afford it?