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Interesting article in The Guardian

It would be funny if it were not so terrible. Britain is 30 years into the grand Conservative project that was to transform the nation into a "property-owning democracy". To mark this great anniversary, a government-sponsored organisation, UK Asset Resolution, is about to embark on the highly patronising and paternalistic task of telephoning 30,000 mortgage-holders and telling them to spend less on nights out, Sky television, gym membership and mobile phones, and more on servicing their mortgages. It's safe to say that this is not what Margaret Thatcher had in mind when she promised that her privatisation policies would remove the state from people's personal lives. It hardly chimes with David Cameron's rhetoric either.

UK Asset Resolution. What a name. It sounds like a highly dodgy private company that buys debt, then intimidates people into paying it off at extortionate rates. But it isn't. UK Asset Resolution is the Treasury-owned holding company that was established last October to "support around 800,000 customers with £77bn of loans", customers who initially took out their mortgages with Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley. Both of those companies, of course, are now "taxpayer owned", after receiving more than £48.7bn in government loans.

Essentially, all these 800,000 people live in houses that are owned by the government, and have to pay the government every month if they wish to carry on living in them. Some of them – the riskier propositions – will also have to put up with presumptive lectures from strangers about their frivolous failure to understand their financial priorities. And they are not the only vulnerable "home owners" by any means. It is Lloyds TSB and Royal Bank of Scotland, for example, not Northern Rock and B&B, that have the greatest exposure to customers whose mortgages are already larger than the value of their homes.

You'd imagine that the implosion of the "property-owning democracy" project was obvious to all. You'd have imagined that it had become obvious back in 1997, when highly visible homelessness was one of the factors that delivered a landslide election victory to Tony Blair. But no.

Just to underline this historic failure, the National Housing Federation this week predicted that the proportion of the population who own or live with the owner of their home will fall to 63.8% by 2021, about the level it stood at in the 1980s. Of more immediate concern are the observations from homelessness charity Crisis that rough sleeping is up 8% on last year, while the number of people accepted as homeless by local councils and placed in social housing is up by 10%. Since the coalition came to power, the number of families claiming housing benefit has risen by 150,000. There are now five million names on waiting lists for social housing. Many more don't bother to make an application, because they understand that they have absolutely no chance of becoming a council or housing association tenant.

The most astounding thing about this mess is that there is still a widespread failure to understand that a flagship ideological experiment in self-regulation by the market is in tatters. The deregulation of banks and building societies, combined with draconian restrictions on the provision of new council housing, which could have replaced stock diminished by the right to buy, was supposed to transform "sink estates" into privately owned and lovingly cared-for communities. Instead, the social demographic of people living in council flats has narrowed massively. The people with the greatest problems are herded together, sometimes seeking a dark kind of identity in their blighted postcode, to the point at which the threat of eviction from council housing is seriously touted as a way of encouraging people to think twice before they take part in riots. God help us.


Yet even though the property-owning democracy idea has achieved neither its social nor its financial goals (the housing market has manifestly not developed in an orderly fashion that seamlessly matches supply and demand), there remains a truculent insistence from the right that somehow it is still interference from the state that is the problem, rather than the lack of it. That is at the heart of Cameron's wish to delay the enactment of recommendations whereby banks separate their retail operations from their investment arms. Not for the first time in recent decades, we see a British prime minister who is very keen on "liberal democracy" when he is "exporting" it, but much more keen on oligarchy when he is dealing with matters at home.

Capitalism is pretty simple. Those with the capital get the profits because they are the ones who have money to invest. The very fact that 30 years of financial deregulation has resulted in greater division between rich and poor is prima facie evidence that capitalism has been working extremely dynamically, unhindered by the state's supposedly crushing interference, until the bursting of the asset bubbles that it created. Chief among these, of course, was the property bubble, which in turn fuelled the febrile consumer boom that continues to worry the 2,400 employees of UK Asset Resolution so greatly.

Yet, still there remains in place an obstinate refusal to see that, without a determinedly redistributive infrastructure, liberal democracy simply cannot exist.

Britain has now been an oligarchy, not a democracy, for quite some time. It is utterly absurd that Cameron and his chancellor George Osborne are at odds with their coalition partners over this question of reorganising the banks, and instead are minded to give greater weight to the desires of the banks themselves, who are resisting the plan.

Basically, the reform calls for the ordinary money of ordinary people, who earn it, to be looked after with more caution and respect than the extraordinary money of people looking for speculative returns that will provide unearned income. After the hammering that ordinary people have been asked to take, in consequence of the financial crash, it is perverse and repulsive that this pair can even imagine that they have a mandate to shield the banks from a restructuring prompted by their own cavalier and foolhardy negligence. It's an appalling affront to democracy, property-owning or not.
 
Capitalism is pretty simple. Those with the capital get the profits because they are the ones who have money to invest. The very fact that 30 years of financial deregulation has resulted in greater division between rich and poor is prima facie evidence that capitalism has been working extremely dynamically, unhindered by the state's supposedly crushing interference, until the bursting of the asset bubbles that it created. Chief among these, of course, was the property bubble, which in turn fuelled the febrile consumer boom that continues to worry the 2,400 employees of UK Asset Resolution so greatly.

Yet, still there remains in place an obstinate refusal to see that, without a determinedly redistributive infrastructure, liberal democracy simply cannot exist.

Capitalism created the greatest civilization man has ever enjoyed in his existence. Redistributive efforts thwart the standard of living rate of increase for all economic levels of society. Every redistributive scheme in history has ended up on the ash-heap of history. Why would any sane person want more of it?

There is another name for redistribution: stealing. We cannot go on stealing from one another using the government as our weapon and expect that it's all going to work out.

The current economic mess is a perfect example of how redistributive stealing destroys society and is completely immoral. The Federal government caused the current economic mess. The US Federal government specifically caused it by it's interference in the free market with redistributive policies. The only thing that will fix the mess is getting government out of everyone else's business, freeing the people and keeping government out of everyone's business. How many times must we learn this lesson again?

To keep the Federal government out of everyone's business, here in the US, we need to abide by our own Constitution. As Thomas Jefferson explained to President Washington regarding the Constitution's Commerce Clause:

Thomas Jefferson said:
"To "regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the States, and with the Indian tribes." . . . the power given to Congress by the Constitution does not extend to the internal regulation of the commerce of a State, (that is to say of the commerce between citizen and citizen,) which remain exclusively with its own legislature; but to its external commerce only, that is to say, its commerce with another State, or with foreign nations, or with the Indian tribes."

Had we followed our own rules we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.

Chris
 
i don't want to risk starting another messy thread, so let's just say I fundamentally disagree with your basic assumptions and apprehension of the facts.
 

oc_in_fw

Fridays are Fishtastic!
Speaking of redistribution, the richest 2% of americans receive 50% of all wages and control 70% of all wealth. We have not seen numbers that lopsided since the Roaring 20's- which were followed by the Great Depresssion. The mega rich can only spend so much money, so most of it just sits in the bank, where it does zero to keep the economy going. The rich have spent the last 40 years (aided by both parties) trying to take back the gains that the middle class made after WWII.
 
There's no doubt something's gone wrong somewhere. I have my own opinion on the reasons. Being a left-wing, civil-disobedience-condoning, non-Christian, Scottish Nationalist with many friends who lead an alternative life-style they will probably be different from those of many people here, but I'd be surprised if many members were actually happy at the current state of affairs.
 
Increased political stability in most of Asia and South and Central America over the past 50 years = "globalization" of markets and increasingly dynamic non-Western industry based on cheap labor = steady decline in middle and lower-middle classes in the West. Left and right wing national politics are meaningless red herrings.

I see no viable solution for the West that wouldn't either ultimately destroy the planet in a nuclear hellstorm, or ultimately destroy the global economy.

But take heart. The slow, painful decline of the West will only continue for another century or so, until the petroleum runs out and the entire planet is thrown back to 1812. That is unless some crazy/desperate power touches off the aforementioned nuclear hellstorm prior to 1812. Then we'll bypass 1812 altogether and go back to 5,000 B.C. if we are lucky.

Just wanted to inject a little ray of sunshine into this thread before it got depressing. HTH.
 

oc_in_fw

Fridays are Fishtastic!
Left and right wing national politics are meaningless red herrings.

Yep, they are there to keep us at each others throats, while the politicians and elites rob us blind. If voting changed anything, it would be illegal.
 
I'll attempt to keep politics out of my response since as a bureaucrat I'm trained to be politic agnostic.

Capitalism is pretty simple. Those with the capital get the profits because they are the ones who have money to invest. The very fact that 30 years of financial deregulation has resulted in greater division between rich and poor is prima facie evidence that capitalism has been working extremely dynamically, unhindered by the state's supposedly crushing interference, until the bursting of the asset bubbles that it created. Chief among these, of course, was the property bubble, which in turn fuelled the febrile consumer boom that continues to worry the 2,400 employees of UK Asset Resolution so greatly.

Yet, still there remains in place an obstinate refusal to see that, without a determinedly redistributive infrastructure, liberal democracy simply cannot exist.

While I'm no fan of the concept of redistribution, regulation of the financial markets should be seen (in light of the current economic mess) to be absolutely necessary.

The current economic mess is a perfect example of how redistributive stealing destroys society and is completely immoral. The Federal government caused the current economic mess. The US Federal government specifically caused it by it's interference in the free market with redistributive policies. The only thing that will fix the mess is getting government out of everyone else's business, freeing the people and keeping government out of everyone's business. How many times must we learn this lesson again?
Just to be clear, the current financial mess was not caused by some redistributive scheme cooked up by the Federal Government. It was also not caused by over-regulation, nor does over-regulation keep us in the mess we are now. If anything, it was a lack of regulation--loosening loan requirements to make home purchases easier, for starters. Policies were put in place by both Dems and Republicans that allowed people to take out loans for things they could not afford, and allowed banks and corporations to repackage those toxic loans into tradeable securities. While I consider the Government to be partially at fault for the mess, both consumers and the financial providers are primarily to blame.

I'm of the opinion the mess was compounded by not letting those banks fail, but that is an argument for another day.
 
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Just to be clear, the current financial mess was not caused by some redistributive scheme cooked up by the Federal Government. It was also not caused by over-regulation, nor does over-regulation keep us in the mess we are now. If anything, it was a lack of regulation--loosening loan requirements to make home purchases easier . . .

Any idea how this came about after about a century of stability in the mortgage market? Fannie and Freddie started taking loans that didn't work. They are government entities pure and simple regardless of what anyone claims. They then sold those loans to Wall Street and backed them. This poisoned the mortgage backed securities pure and simple.

Policies were put in place by both Dems and Republicans that allowed people to take out loans for things they could not afford, and allowed banks and corporations to repackage those toxic loans into tradeable securities. While I consider the Government to be partially at fault for the mess, both consumers and the financial providers are primarily to blame.

The market reacts to the incentives it's given. If Fannie and Freddie are gonna take those loans off lenders books and back them for Wall Street everyone felt covered. Free the lenders from government regulation that loosened Fannie and Freddie's underwriting guidelines, make them responsible for the consequences of their own actions and they will only make loans that work and then there would not be any such mess as we are experiencing now. That's the way it's been up until Fannie and Freddie changed their guidelines and that's the way it will be corrected. Make no mistake that the impetus for government officials influencing Fannie and Freddie to drop their underwriting guidelines was entirely redistributive. It was supposedly going to give underprivileged folks a chance at obtaining a mortgage loan that they just couldn't afford (this is called redistribution). Some politicians put forth that this would somehow magically make them work harder to afford it. We have been experiencing the folly of that line of reasoning ever since.

I'm of the opinion the mess was compounded by not letting those banks fail, but that is an argument for another day.
Here we are in 100% agreement. In 1987 the stock market had a huge correction that turned out to be a blip in the road. I am of the mind that a similar thing would have happened here had the government not interfered in the aftermath.

Chris
 
All you have to do is look back at history in the days when people of a certain political ilk would be besides themselves with glee with the size of govt and the lack of power it had and then look at what unfettered capitalism meant to the masses and the boom and bust cycles throughout history. Of course many would say these are just corrections and they always sort themselves out over time. The problem is during the great depression John D Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie and Mr Mellon weren't the ones selling apples on the street.
 
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El Alamein

I think you may be underestimating the role that the massive increase in global capital over the last 30 years and the desire for investment gains had to do with setting up the "easy money" scenario. Also, see Bank Capitalization, the opaqueness of the credit default swap market, and the lack of incentive on the part of lenders and investment banks to do due diligence. For example, lenders only owned the loans for a brief period of time - so why do they care about the long term risk. Investment banks were basically begging them to make more loans. Investment Banks (Like Goldman) earn a flat fee for buy, bundling, and selling the derivatives (a couple percent on 10 Billion is a good chunk of change) so they are actually disincentivized to do due diligence. Meanwhile the global pool of capital is begging Goldman et al to give them more of these (Then AA rated) derivative so that they can get some kind of return. Of course AIG is issuing credit default swaps on these derivatives and is massively under-capitalized were they to all go bad at once....

Fannie and Freddie are simply the low hanging fruit for those of a particular political persuasion
 
Fannie and Freddie are simply the low hanging fruit for those of a particular political persuasion

Not when they back all those bad loans with the full faith and credit of the United States. That's why the investment instruments based on them were rated so high. If they didn't back those loans they would never have been made.

Chris
 
No - not all of them - a decent chunk but not even close to all of them. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were simply another player in the game. They were Goldman except their bailout was guaranteed.

It raises important questions about the cozy relationship between government and private enterprise but to look to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as the sole cause of the financial crisis ignores the very real regulatory issues that a global economy raises and the economic fundamentals behind the crisis.

If you are looking for a reason for the AA ratings of all of these things (Both FMFM and others) you should really be looking at the "pay to play" model of the ratings agencies.


Not when they back all those bad loans with the full faith and credit of the United States. That's why the investment instruments based on them were rated so high. If they didn't back those loans they would never have been made.

Chris
 
Fannie and Freddie as the Cause?!! That's rich! Federal Reserve Board data show that:

* More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions.

* Private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year.

Fannie, the Federal National Mortgage Association, and Freddie, the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corp., actually don't lend money to anyone. They purchase loans from the private lenders who underwrite the loans.
If anything, the housing bubble was fueled by the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.
 
No - not all of them - a decent chunk but not even close to all of them. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were simply another player in the game. They were Goldman except their bailout was guaranteed.

It raises important questions about the cozy relationship between government and private enterprise but to look to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as the sole cause of the financial crisis ignores the very real regulatory issues that a global economy raises and the economic fundamentals behind the crisis.

If you are looking for a reason for the AA ratings of all of these things (Both FMFM and others) you should really be looking at the "pay to play" model of the ratings agencies.

Of course they didn't back all of the loans but they did back all of their loans they bought and sold and they did do the bulk of the bad loans. They didn't do all subprime mortgages because there has always been a subprime mortgage industry in this country and it has been a highly specialized field that has not caused any trouble in the mortgage world.

Once the folks on the Hill told Fannie and Freddie to do these loans it started the rise in demand which of course leads to competition. All sectors of the industry responded to the new influx of demand and competition for loans. They were the trigger and politicians pulled back on it and the bubble inflated.

The problem you have is explaining why we've never had a mortgage crisis before they lowered their underwriting standards.

Look at all the regulation we have today and it didn't amount to a hill of beans when the government decided to act immorally. It didn't do a blessed thing to prevent this mess we're in. Faith in regulation is near absolute yet it's failure is always explained as not being enough.

I always find it amazing how folks will not tolerate their fellow citizens with the responsibility that comes with being free because they fear being cheated by them yet they humbly stand by while the government robs them blind and compounds human error by institutionalizing it. They'll accept it all and ask for more power for it to "fix" any problems it created.

Chris
 
So, it's to Business's credit when things go smoothly and gvt's fault when they don't?
That's clever.
Government is there to encourage good behaviour and discourage/punish bad. But by your logic, if a man assaults someone on the street it's the gvt's fault for not putting a policeman there, not the man's fault for assualting. Laws are often retrospective, in response to a loophole or stupidity no-one thought we needed to be told about. For bankers to claim it wasn't their fault they lent lots of money to people who they shouldn't have and passed this on as quickly as possible, while giving themselves big bonuses, is reprehensible and should have been punished with prison sentences.
Only one thing caused the financial crisis- greed.
 
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Of course they didn't back all of the loans but they did back all of their loans they bought and sold and they did do the bulk of the bad loans. They didn't do all subprime mortgages because there has always been a subprime mortgage industry in this country and it has been a highly specialized field that has not caused any trouble in the mortgage world.

Once the folks on the Hill told Fannie and Freddie to do these loans it started the rise in demand which of course leads to competition. All sectors of the industry responded to the new influx of demand and competition for loans. They were the trigger and politicians pulled back on it and the bubble inflated.

The problem you have is explaining why we've never had a mortgage crisis before they lowered their underwriting standards.

Look at all the regulation we have today and it didn't amount to a hill of beans when the government decided to act immorally. It didn't do a blessed thing to prevent this mess we're in. Faith in regulation is near absolute yet it's failure is always explained as not being enough.

I always find it amazing how folks will not tolerate their fellow citizens with the responsibility that comes with being free because they fear being cheated by them yet they humbly stand by while the government robs them blind and compounds human error by institutionalizing it. They'll accept it all and ask for more power for it to "fix" any problems it created.

Chris

The crisis of 2008 didn't happen because of the volume of subprime loans being issued. It happened because the greedy banks repackaged these subprime loans into completely opaque derivatives that were bought and sold by hedge funds and securities firms who leveraged assets they didn't own to buy these pieces of junk without any idea whatsoever of the risks of the underlying mortgages.

Fannie and Freddie certainly contributed to this, but they were not alone by any means. If the government had restricted the bundling of these mortgages into derivatives and required mortgage servicers to fully account for and document the servicing of every single one of these loans, the red flags could have shown up a lot sooner. Instead, the government let laissez-faire rule in the securities marketplace and eventually the house of cards fell under its own unsupported weight.

And, yes, a similar banking crisis occurred in the late 80s, when a similar laissez faire attitude by the Reagan/Bush administration led the savings and loans to make countless bad loans that flopped when the recession hit in 1989. Back then, the government had to bail out hundreds of savings and loans, at taxpayer expense. That recession didn't end until President Bush pulled the country out of it by going to war with Iraq. Did anyone learn anything from this? Of course not. The laissez-faire attitude toward the industry continues, through Democratic and Republican administrations and Congresses alike.

Throughout all of history, time and time has proven that, when given the opportunity, business will only act in its their short-term interest, cutting corners, exhausting natural resource, destroying environments, poisoning communities with no concern over the welfare of their communities or the nation as a whole. And what has been the results of unrestricted business practices? Reduced competition and rising prices. Monopolies. Love Canal. Reduced competition. Thousand of polluted worksites that are poisoning surrounding communities. Concentration of 70% of America's wealth in 10% of the population. Millions of jobs exported overseas. Corporations shifting assets to Swiss bank accounts. Near extinction of fishing stocks in the northeast. Unrestricted development on treasured national resources. Dangerous working conditions and near slave wages. Uninsured money in banks. Illegal hiring and firing practices.

All of these conditions have and do exist when business is not regulated. Yes, in some areas there is far too much regulation and inefficiency and stupidity, But, frankly, I'd prefer to live in a country where the government tries to stop business from poisoning me, impoverishing me, exploiting me, working me to death, and robbing me of access to America's natural treasures than in a country where "the business of America is business."
 
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Yep, they are there to keep us at each others throats, while the politicians and elites rob us blind. If voting changed anything, it would be illegal.
This. Republicans are in bed with the banking industry. Democrats have stolen our tax dollars through "green" energy. Both let the insurance industry steal from us.
 
Gentlemen,

Trade tariffs are the culprit... or, specifically, the lack thereof. Politicians have been reducing tariffs on imported goods, and signing free trade agreements even with countries whose governments are diametrically opposed to our own. While we have been sold on these actions as being a good thing, or that a "global economy" was unavoidable, only corporations and the 5% who head them have benefited from the sham. Governments have lost tax revenues that tariffs normally generate and workers have lost jobs to foreign slave labor. We have all been told that we need to outsource production to 3rd world countries to keep prices of consumer goods down, yet the price of just about everything has gone up... the savings intended for the conusmer going straignt into the CEO's pocket.

YMMV. My opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it, allowing for inflation.
 
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