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- #61
first time homeowner need advice
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I have nothing but great things to say about LG. We have had their front load washer for over 7 years and still going. We havent had mold in ours; the door is left open about half the time. Prior to owning that one we had an HE top loader (not an LG) for 1yr... nothing but problems. Drain kept clogging. A repair man at the time came several times to work on it and told us that was a common problem.
Our fridge is liebherr. Its very well made but not as pricy as miehle or sub zero. We installed it last Sept and it's been great so far.
Our fridge is liebherr. Its very well made but not as pricy as miehle or sub zero. We installed it last Sept and it's been great so far.
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- #63
Is that a free standing unit? The local dealer said they don't have any free standing units by them.
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- #64
Anyone have a Miele Washer/Dryer?
http://www.mieleusa.com/Product/Details/1010
They are small at approx 2 cu ft, but most reviews are very positive.
They are super pricey, though.
http://www.mieleusa.com/Product/Details/1010
They are small at approx 2 cu ft, but most reviews are very positive.
They are super pricey, though.
We have a counter depth model and bought ours online. Thay were a perfect fit for us beacause they make a panel ready small fridge. Not a whole lot of space in a california bungalow.
Looks like they do make some free standing units:
http://liebherr-refrigeration.com/Eurostoves_Liebherr_Website/Free_Standing.html
I hate it when they give washer/dryer measurements in cubic feet. That means nothing to me.
How many days of dirty laundry equals 2 cubic feet? Is that enough to go a week between washloads? Do I have to plan on doing just two pairs of pants and two shirts at a time? How many bathtowels will it hold?
They need to talk in units that are translatable into everyday life. When a laundry spec says "2 cubic feet" I just draw a blank as to how big it really is.
A regular-capacity washer between 3.1 and 4.0 cubic feet will let you load in 12 to 16 pounds of laundry, while a larger-capacity model between 4.2 and 4.5 cubic feet can hold up to 20 pounds or more. Some washers have extra-large capacities of 5.0 cubic feet and up, making them ideal for big families where laundry seems never-ending.
Since we have no idea how often you change your clothes or what size individual you are ---there is no way to guess how many days a wash load would do you.
2 cubic feet is a very SMALL load of laundry! Using a scale , the above information, and your basket of laundry, you should be able to figure out what size washer to get.
Since we have no idea how often you change your clothes or what size individual you are ---there is no way to guess how many days a wash load would do you.
2 cubic feet is a very SMALL load of laundry! Using a scale , the above information, and your basket of laundry, you should be able to figure out what size washer to get.
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- #68
For comparison, the machines in the stores run anywhere from 3.8 cu ft to 5+ cu ft, with 4 - 4.5 cu ft being run-of-the-mill. To wash a queen size comforter, they usually recommend at least a 4 cu ft model. I'd say 2 cu ft is probably 1/2 a week of laundry.
(I learnt all of this in the last week or so!)
In my research here's what I have found so far.
3 basic types of washer
- Top loader (with agitator)
- Top loader HE (no agitator)
- Front loader
Top loaders are old school. The upside is that they don't have any surprises, good or bad, but whatever is being made, is not usually not being made with durable parts (but this is true of all of the washers out there). The point I'm trying to make is that simple doesn't necessarily mean it will last forever. The downside with them is that they use more water and power, they are noisy, and they are harsh on clothes.
Top loader HE are the new ones without an agitator. They have fancy features like water jets and steam, but they do not have an agitator and some people think they don't clean well enough because really they're just shaking the drum with the clothes soaked in water. What is worse is that the drum "floats" and so it is easy for it to get it off balance. Some people say they have to be loaded carefully. One of the inventions in this category is auto-balancing, but that causes cycle times to increase as the device, sometimes unsuccessfully, repeatedly adds water and tries to rebalance the drum.
Front loaders usually clean the best, but require regular maintenance via special cleaning cycles (with a special detergent) and care to make sure things stay dry, or mold accumulates on the rubber gasket by the door.
To top it all some of the them are too hard when opening/closing the dryer.
I have no idea what I'm going to get...
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I recommend that you don't fall victim of feature creep on modern appliances. You want a clothes washer with at least two cycles: a regular/deep cycle and a gentle cycle, and a less useful but still worthy permanent press cycle. Bottom line if you don't understand the usefulness/need of any given feature, then minimizing the controls and functions usually means a more reliable product.
For example, this might be an awesome washer and useful feature, but since one's house already has a number of sinks, then why seek out a special washing machine with a built-in sink? Personally I think it is much better to have a flat top (no washing machine sink) on which to stack folded clothes as they exit the dryer.
For example, this might be an awesome washer and useful feature, but since one's house already has a number of sinks, then why seek out a special washing machine with a built-in sink? Personally I think it is much better to have a flat top (no washing machine sink) on which to stack folded clothes as they exit the dryer.
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This may be a good summary, but I am skeptical of low efficiency vs high efficiency definitions (I do not have a clear idea of the delineation between LE vs HE) but my mental model is a person using a manual washboard or trying to hand clean a garment in the sink. In which case there is not much of a LE/HE difference in cleaning or getting sort-of-clean fabric outcome in washing a garment...which might be irrelevant for mechanical machines but still begs the question of what is really meant by HE......by this I mean no one is in favor of LE (if that meant poor cleaning) so it sounds more like a political statement than anything about how clothes exit the washing machine.
It is hard to believe that clothes rubbing against themselves (no agitator) could be more efficient (HE) than without the added benefit of an agitator. I am skeptical of that claim. Maybe that uses less electricity (coal) but would not necessarily mean cleaner clothes.
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- #71
Yes, I agree. The LE vs HE classification doesn't make sense if the clothes come out dirty. In addition, like I mentioned, many HE models end up wasting more power and water as they get out of balance, and then try to auto-balance. Some of the reviews are eye opening. You walk into a store and see all these glitzy machines and you could never tell they were capable of such problems.
I saw the Miele unit on Saturday and thought it was very well made. It will cost a packet, but I'm thinking if it cleans better and lasts longer (which many reviews say they do) then it will be worth it in the long run. Steve Jobs likes the brand:
http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/4.02/jobs_pr.html
(See last paragraph.)
I still haven't found a fridge that I really like, but I will just buy something to get me going.
Incidentally, I have now found 3 incorrect options (2 of them did not even make it to the paperwork, so my error in not finding those) in the house and 15 defects, but mostly minor ones.
Buying a house is really an overwhelming experience. The builder tries to give you as little time as possible to review things and get your signature. It's almost like they smile at you, distract you, get you to sign, and wash their hands off you.
I'll have to see how responsive they are to fixing the defects, but I'm not holding my breath.
I saw the Miele unit on Saturday and thought it was very well made. It will cost a packet, but I'm thinking if it cleans better and lasts longer (which many reviews say they do) then it will be worth it in the long run. Steve Jobs likes the brand:
http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/4.02/jobs_pr.html
(See last paragraph.)
I still haven't found a fridge that I really like, but I will just buy something to get me going.
Incidentally, I have now found 3 incorrect options (2 of them did not even make it to the paperwork, so my error in not finding those) in the house and 15 defects, but mostly minor ones.
Buying a house is really an overwhelming experience. The builder tries to give you as little time as possible to review things and get your signature. It's almost like they smile at you, distract you, get you to sign, and wash their hands off you.
I'll have to see how responsive they are to fixing the defects, but I'm not holding my breath.
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The washing machine manufacturers know how to make a machine that gets clothes really clean; they've all made them in the past.
The Maytag wringer washer I have gets clothes really clean---and not just clothes that you wore while sitting watching a movie. It cleans clothes that you wore while greasing farm implements, or after a day of working on a drilling rig. The wringer washer has an AGITATOR --- it AGITATES like crazy ---not at all like the agitators in modern automatic washing machines (where a dozen fresh eggs thrown in with the wash would stand a good chance of surviving the experience.
I have experimented. I have put really dirty clothes through an automatic machine---and seen the dirty clothes come out with much of the same dirt still in place. I then took that load of "washed" laundry and run it through the Maytag wringer washer. Guess what? After 20 minutes in the wringer washer, the water in the tub was filthy dirty! After rinsing the clothes, they came out perfectly clean.
There are agitators... and then there are agitators. So, don't think for a minute that all agitator machines are anywhere near equal in performance. I have absolutely no experience with front loader machines or so-called HE machines, but I have to assume that there is a world of difference between all of the models in each category.
So----why don't I just go back to using the wringer washer?
Obviously the manufacturers are NOT going to start making wringer washers again---because they know that the average user has become too lazy to stand there and USE it. The wringer washer just helps you do the hardest part of washing clothes---but you still have to do a lot of the work---and actually have to get your hands wet... imagine that! Most of you would rather have some automatic machine swish the clothes around for a few minutes and then give you back a pile of damp laundry that still has most of the dirt in it.
When you buy any automatic washing machine, you are buying a compromise.
-----------
I lived on a sailboat with my family for a year. I did all the laundry using nothing more than two 5-gallon plastic pails and a (dedicated) toilet plunger. So I'm familiar with the agitation process. Wringing clothes by hand is neither fun nor efficient. And I know something about appreciating ANY kind of washing machine after a year of that.
------------
Let me get something else off my chest. Many of you (while sitting in some trendy restaurant) have noticed an array of "antiques" screwed to the wall. Nearly all of those antique collections include a washboard or two. Perhaps you've thought "I'm glad I don't have to wash clothes with one of those." Well, I'm here to tell you that a washboard will get out a serious ground in stain... better and faster... than any machine. The usual load of modern wash contains few if any of those types of stains.
End rant. But I'll be back...
The Maytag wringer washer I have gets clothes really clean---and not just clothes that you wore while sitting watching a movie. It cleans clothes that you wore while greasing farm implements, or after a day of working on a drilling rig. The wringer washer has an AGITATOR --- it AGITATES like crazy ---not at all like the agitators in modern automatic washing machines (where a dozen fresh eggs thrown in with the wash would stand a good chance of surviving the experience.
I have experimented. I have put really dirty clothes through an automatic machine---and seen the dirty clothes come out with much of the same dirt still in place. I then took that load of "washed" laundry and run it through the Maytag wringer washer. Guess what? After 20 minutes in the wringer washer, the water in the tub was filthy dirty! After rinsing the clothes, they came out perfectly clean.
There are agitators... and then there are agitators. So, don't think for a minute that all agitator machines are anywhere near equal in performance. I have absolutely no experience with front loader machines or so-called HE machines, but I have to assume that there is a world of difference between all of the models in each category.
So----why don't I just go back to using the wringer washer?
- I'm much older now... my clothes just don't get nearly as dirty as they did years ago.
- I'm lazier now.
Obviously the manufacturers are NOT going to start making wringer washers again---because they know that the average user has become too lazy to stand there and USE it. The wringer washer just helps you do the hardest part of washing clothes---but you still have to do a lot of the work---and actually have to get your hands wet... imagine that! Most of you would rather have some automatic machine swish the clothes around for a few minutes and then give you back a pile of damp laundry that still has most of the dirt in it.
When you buy any automatic washing machine, you are buying a compromise.
-----------
I lived on a sailboat with my family for a year. I did all the laundry using nothing more than two 5-gallon plastic pails and a (dedicated) toilet plunger. So I'm familiar with the agitation process. Wringing clothes by hand is neither fun nor efficient. And I know something about appreciating ANY kind of washing machine after a year of that.
------------
Let me get something else off my chest. Many of you (while sitting in some trendy restaurant) have noticed an array of "antiques" screwed to the wall. Nearly all of those antique collections include a washboard or two. Perhaps you've thought "I'm glad I don't have to wash clothes with one of those." Well, I'm here to tell you that a washboard will get out a serious ground in stain... better and faster... than any machine. The usual load of modern wash contains few if any of those types of stains.
End rant. But I'll be back...
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Interesting comments from Steve Jobs about Miele. Purchased a Miele vacuum a couple of years ago after much research and finding that it sucked less (figuratively speaking) than most other vacuums. So far I have been pleased with the purchase.
I have a modestly priced and middle-of-the-product-line Frigidaire washer & dryer that has been functioning well for 15 years. Nothing to complain about there. Maybe that contributes to my skepticism of new HE washers, as they seem to be more of an up-sell, to get home owners to upgrade their existing machines which are still functioning well.
I enjoyed @morgantruce's report, even though I/we don't hand wash unless out camping or trying to stretch travel in a single backpack, I have seen how people living off the grid in poor countries spend a good deal of effort to keep their families clothes clean (which they manage well with some effort and bright sunshine to dry the clothes).
I have a modestly priced and middle-of-the-product-line Frigidaire washer & dryer that has been functioning well for 15 years. Nothing to complain about there. Maybe that contributes to my skepticism of new HE washers, as they seem to be more of an up-sell, to get home owners to upgrade their existing machines which are still functioning well.
I enjoyed @morgantruce's report, even though I/we don't hand wash unless out camping or trying to stretch travel in a single backpack, I have seen how people living off the grid in poor countries spend a good deal of effort to keep their families clothes clean (which they manage well with some effort and bright sunshine to dry the clothes).
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- #74
I checked with some other dealers and they said they can order the free standing units. Which model do you have? Did you get an installer, or did you do the installation yourself? Most local dealers only place the order. They have recommendations for an outside installer to do the installation.
The CS1200 looks like the only model that will fit for my place because of the height...somehow all their fridges are much taller than the common 72" height available.
http://www.liebherr.ca/HG/en-GB/products_ca-hg.wfw/id-1589453-0_39370-0
This costs about the same as an LG that would have twice the space. But I don't really need that much space.
One of the dealers was strongly trying to talk me out of the Liebherr due to lack of a service network and saying that unless you're going built in, their units are no better than the regular units like Kitchen Aid or Bosch (both of which happen to be made by Whirlpool).
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We have the 1540... It's actually a built in so your install should be much simpler. Ours sat in the garage during our remodel and we hired someone to move it on account that it was so tall and heavy. Has two compressors, glass shelves and is very solid (has veg drawers with ball bearings gliders, for example). We did the final install that involved attaching a bracket to the wall and sliding the fridge over, then attaching to the enclosure.
If the dealer offers install i would take it. One thing we learned was not to turn on the fridge after moving it. This allows the oil to settle. The manual should say how long; we waited 24 hours.
Liebherr does not have a big presence in the US since they seem to specialize in smaller footprint fridges. Ours hasnt had mechanical problems, but we did have some experience with the service. The fridge has a superfrost option for storing meats that is kind of cool; however the compressor drain pan overflowed after we used it. We drained the pan, and called Liebherr to notify them of the issue. They contract with a local company, and they sent someone out to check it. The steaks turned out perfectly after thawing, and we havent had the pan overflow since.
i'm can't speak to the dealer's experience or motivations. We got ours because we read good reviews from someone on a different chat board, but we also had few options in our price range due to the fact that we wanted a panel read. In all honesty, if we were looking for a free standing model, we probably would have gotten another brand due to availability and price. But i dont think it would have been built near as well as the Liebherr.
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- #76
I did get a chance to see a Liebherr French Door model today (not the CS1200 that I'm researching, though). Definitely the attention to detail with small things like hinges is a cut above the others. I'm not sure if the sides are metal or textured on the CS1200, though. Basically, I really liked the fridge, but I'm thinking just because of the ease of installation and the ability to get an extended warranty.
I'll try to come to a decision in the next few days.
None of the dealers in my area offer installation. All of them will provide a referral to someone that will install it.
I might agree with the dealer's comment about the service network, in that it seems like the Liebherr is more like buying a European sports car in the USA, so getting parts and service may be more difficult (I believe it would be in my area). Of course one wants reliability from their frig, but the purchase price, energy consumption, and storage size are probably the top 3 factors to consider, along with features like an ice maker and/or in door dispenser. Operation noise as well, though that is hard to find that spelled out in any spec sheet. When buying today for your new home, you should also consider potential family/household expansion, or resell value to some future homeowner. If your freezer is bigger than is needed right now, can load up the empty space with ice cubes to keep it more energy efficient (less outside air entering each time you open the door, and larger thermal mass to counter balance). If the frig side is bigger than needed you can load it up with your favorite 12oz beverage or water bottles.
It is my understanding (or maybe it is partly a sales pitch to get everyone to upgrade) that the push for energy efficiency has meant that the modern fridge is much more insulated than before, thus requiring less work from the compressor, thus boosting its overall reliability since it works less hard and produces less waste heat. In addition to any incremental product advancement. My 5 year old energy star fridge is certainly much less cool to the touch than the one it replaced, and old Kelvinator. The Kelvinator was noisy and cold to the touch, but the repairman (10 years ago) liked it a lot and said "they don't make them like this anymore" when replacing the thermostat. Just giving you food for thought, the Liebherr may be the right choice for you, but don't dismiss the cheaper/larger mass market ones that may be a little less desirable if all you need is a basic frig.
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