Captain's Choice is the WORST shaving soap that I've optimized so far
- Thread starter ShavingByTheNumbers
- Start date
Still mocking a member is not a good approach. As a man with studies in business and economics, I say you that this is a bad approach. You don't mock a consumer, even the one the thinks you are the worst ever. You try your best to gain him back and make him a loyal customer.
This is all wrong.
Respect is a word that has lost its meaning lately.
With full acknowledgement that I am relatively new here and don't have much experience with wetshaving. TLDR at the bottom.
+4 (edited from 1). I love the response and I think that "try it out for yourself," is an excellent response to one person's negative opinion. I also explained the threads to my wife and we agreed that it shows an admirable attitude towards criticism. I assume this isn't biased by the fact that I am in love with his Lime After Shave Splash and rolled copper bowl (so good...so good).
I also want to thank @ShavingByTheNumbers for all of the work that has been put into this table and the head-to-head reviews. While there are many factors that are not accounted for and the generalizability of the numbers is probably fairly low, this table has done two great things for me. As someone who is relatively new to wetshaving, I was super fed up with trying the small quarter-ounce samples. Thanks to the resultant wiki I found a way to get a great starting point when testing small amounts of soap.
The second thing that all of these threads did for me is providing a reasonable benchmark for how a lather should look. Most of the reviewers or people who have been here for a while seem to subscribe to the, "I just do what the soap needs," method of lathering. After a while I felt pretty confident that I was doing things right, however, using the number for Stirling Soaps from the table I was able to confirm that what I thought was right was pretty close (I also saw the shiny yogurt consistency more clearly). Having these exacting measurements available helped me shift my thinking some and now I can freehand it better than before.
Regarding methodology, OP makes it clear how he likes to lather. It might be that his lathering method doesn't allow certain soaps to reach their potential (I cannot pretend to have any idea if this is a true statement or not). If that is the case he is entirely accurate in saying that they perform less well for him. I will also say that even following his system I have had to tweak numbers (assuming it has to do with hard water, or temperature, or brush, or my lack of ability), but I have never approached these as being the definitive word.
TLDR I love CC Aftershave and lather bowls and am excited to try his soap. The overall lathering methodology and reviews by OP have really helped me in my early journey.
+4 (edited from 1). I love the response and I think that "try it out for yourself," is an excellent response to one person's negative opinion. I also explained the threads to my wife and we agreed that it shows an admirable attitude towards criticism. I assume this isn't biased by the fact that I am in love with his Lime After Shave Splash and rolled copper bowl (so good...so good).
I also want to thank @ShavingByTheNumbers for all of the work that has been put into this table and the head-to-head reviews. While there are many factors that are not accounted for and the generalizability of the numbers is probably fairly low, this table has done two great things for me. As someone who is relatively new to wetshaving, I was super fed up with trying the small quarter-ounce samples. Thanks to the resultant wiki I found a way to get a great starting point when testing small amounts of soap.
The second thing that all of these threads did for me is providing a reasonable benchmark for how a lather should look. Most of the reviewers or people who have been here for a while seem to subscribe to the, "I just do what the soap needs," method of lathering. After a while I felt pretty confident that I was doing things right, however, using the number for Stirling Soaps from the table I was able to confirm that what I thought was right was pretty close (I also saw the shiny yogurt consistency more clearly). Having these exacting measurements available helped me shift my thinking some and now I can freehand it better than before.
Regarding methodology, OP makes it clear how he likes to lather. It might be that his lathering method doesn't allow certain soaps to reach their potential (I cannot pretend to have any idea if this is a true statement or not). If that is the case he is entirely accurate in saying that they perform less well for him. I will also say that even following his system I have had to tweak numbers (assuming it has to do with hard water, or temperature, or brush, or my lack of ability), but I have never approached these as being the definitive word.
TLDR I love CC Aftershave and lather bowls and am excited to try his soap. The overall lathering methodology and reviews by OP have really helped me in my early journey.
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Lighten up, fellas. We are talkin' 'bout soap, not belief systems. And, may I add, three cheers for those who responded with a bit of tongue in cheek or a hint of humor.
Additionally, spreadsheet or not, one's success (or lack of) with a brush, razor, soap, blade, etc is personal. Because I love MWF does not mean you do, or should, or ought to, now or tomorrow. My water might be harder than yours, my brush different, my technique unlike yours, my skin drier.
Happy shaves.
Additionally, spreadsheet or not, one's success (or lack of) with a brush, razor, soap, blade, etc is personal. Because I love MWF does not mean you do, or should, or ought to, now or tomorrow. My water might be harder than yours, my brush different, my technique unlike yours, my skin drier.
Happy shaves.
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Let me try something else.
You can disagree. You can point out flaws and I'll hear them out. What will they offer? Will they be opinions or an evaluations?
I guess I missed the "mocking", but I did notice that those who like the product were invited to have that support honored. Sounds like keeping good consumers connected, being confident in the product produced, and having a strong sense of identity. We, you and I, do not have the ability to change another person's mind. We can only seek to understand and perhaps be understood. If I read the comments correctly, the OP wasn't lost as a customer, the relationship never existed. He was sampling a product that was given to him.
The OP said his peace on the matter, now it seems others are doing the same. Isn't this fair-play? The OP is being reviewed, and it seems to have remained fairly respectable.
Hannah's Dad
I Can See Better Than Bigfoot.
Judging from the fairly gracious responses by @ShavingByTheNumbers, even in the face of some rather pointed criticism, I suspect that even he got a chuckle out of the vendor’s post. Or so it’s my hope.
+1 And the vendor "read" the OP right. The OP thinks it was handled very well by him. (PMs from me and SBTN)Turning a possibly bad situation into a publicity builder.
The vendor could have responded in this thread about it. It would be buried in the middle and no one would see it. Those that did some might think the vendor looks defensive, or is hounding a customer for expressing their opinion. Also, since he is a double hobbyist(shaver & soap maker), just kicked in both of them, poking a little fun eases frustrations and anger, while trying to respond to specific things might cause a blow up. Then people would comment about unprofessionalism.
- Thread starter
- #109
Thanks, Ted. I bought a jar of NSS several days ago.
Thanks, David. The optimum lather table was never meant to explain performance. That's where the reviews with the optimum lather overviews, optimization details, and ranking details come in. I've always detailed slickness, cushion, post-shave, etc. That information is in my reviews where details of the evaluation process and results are found.
Exactly. All reviews are subjective. However, my reviews are based on a rigorous lather building process with measurements of mass and time so that lathers can be reproduced in a scientific manner and I can find the optimum combination of hydration, total mass, and lather-building time, in my opinion, of course, for each soap and cream that I evaluate. The disclaimer at the top of my lather optimization guide covers this pretty well.
I might convert some of my word scores to numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that the ratings are subjective. I've thought about a better system, but I'm not interested in making that now due to time and difficulty. As for my testing methods, they are accurate and repeatable, as detailed in my lather optimization guide. That is why revisiting products during ranking tests has worked out so well.
Our skin is different. It doesn't take nearly as long for mine to adjust. My optimization process usually takes around 10 shaves, but that's because of the nature of optimizing the variables, not because of giving time for my skin to adjust.
Thanks, David. I really appreciate your detailed feedback. I agree that scientific tests would be great, but we're out of luck.
Thanks for the advice, Mike. I might do that. I like changing up the title, though, giving a taste of what's inside.
I agree!
Thanks! I love how Scott is using my review! I was cracking up! It's hilarious, and it's good business! It would be better business, though, to improve his soap, in my opinion, but I could say the same about a lot of products that I've evaluated so far.Scott handled my negative evaluation very well. My review was not to troll him, and none of my other reviews have anything to do with trolling. I follow the same optimization principles for each soap and cream that I evaluate and then publish the results and move on to the next product.
Wow! I am really honored, @Ryanshh. Thank you very much for sharing that. It's awesome to know that I've helped you in some small way make better lather for you. You touched on a lot of stuff that I totally related to, which goes back to my earlier (and later) days struggling with lather and getting help from others here. We're all contributing in our different ways. Thanks, again!
That's right. As @johnwick explained, he was having difficulty with Captain's Choice and "asked [me] for help because [he] thought [he] might be crazy." I told him that I'd evaluate the soap with an open mind, as I always do, not factoring in where the soap came from or what it cost. My optimizations are done objectively, not with a predetermined outcome or as a customer, even if I paid for the products.
I did! Scott's giveaway post is HILARIOUS!
Early in the thread there were multiple comments about using more product. That issue was not addressed very well IMO. Using a soap 6 times with some X?? target in how it looks?? or other goal might miss the point. Regardless of how one feels about a soap (scent, post shave feel, ease of lathering, etc) there are few commercial soaps that can only produce a thin airy lather when using the right amount of product.
A better approach might be to use a soap many more times without worrying about fixing the ratios until the lathers/shaves stop improving. And then try to determine the water/soap ratio used to make that lather. Not that the ratios will matter that much to most people. They are meaningless to me since I face lather in different climates and with/without showering first and with/without washing my face first and with different brushes and for different lengths of time....all which affect the resulting lather and shave.
A better approach might be to use a soap many more times without worrying about fixing the ratios until the lathers/shaves stop improving. And then try to determine the water/soap ratio used to make that lather. Not that the ratios will matter that much to most people. They are meaningless to me since I face lather in different climates and with/without showering first and with/without washing my face first and with different brushes and for different lengths of time....all which affect the resulting lather and shave.
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I agree!
That's the B&B spirit.
When life gives you lemons make lemonade. The Captain has turned a negative into a positive.
Hey if you decided you don't like the soap and PIF it on, there can be a second winner...er loser.
Over the years I've found a few soaps that just didn't work well for me but others have sung praise, calling it the best hands down. That's all good, we are spoilt for choice and there are plenty of options to move on to, so I just quietly move on.
I've not tried the Captains soap but now I want to, funny how that works.
What's up next?
- Thread starter
- #112
Thanks for the feedback. The OP covers details about how I reached my optimum lather for CC. More details on soap amounts used (from a lot to a little) were addressed in this reply. The methodology that I use works for me and I get how my results might seem meaningless to you, since you face lather, but there are still comparisons that can be made between my optimum lather recipes that might help guide others that use different lather-building methods to make better lathers for them.
That's the B&B spirit.
When life gives you lemons make lemonade. The Captain has turned a negative into a positive.
Hey if you decided you don't like the soap and PIF it on, there can be a second winner...er loser.
Over the years I've found a few soaps that just didn't work well for me but others have sung praise, calling it the best hands down. That's all good, we are spoilt for choice and there are plenty of options to move on to, so I just quietly move on.
I've not tried the Captains soap but now I want to, funny how that works.
What's up next?
Cool! I hope that CC works better for you than it did for me.
(I'm currently optimizing Bull and Bell.)So you state that your "problems with CC have nothing to do with too little soap". And you can optimize the recipe for any particular soap in six attempts? Respectfully I find that hard to believe. I admire your enthusiasm and effort but I think something is missing.
- Thread starter
- #114
Yes.
No. What I said is that the optimization process for CC involved six shaves. (I stopped with a precision of 4 with respect to the water-to-soap ratio, which is higher than my usual precision of 1, because of the lather performance and the fact that zeroing in more on the precise optimum for me would have hardly changed the optimum lather performance.) There is no predetermined amount of shaves for an optimization process. Sometimes it takes more shaves and sometimes it takes less shaves. I've gotten more efficient with optimization, so I'm somewhat quicker than I used to be. Nowadays, an optimization with around ten shaves is fairly normal for me.
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+1. OP has responded in the most gentlemanly way. I think @ShavingByTheNumbers and Scott @ Captains Choice have handled the situation well. Hats off to both of you gentlemen. Have a great 2019!!
FarmerTan
"Self appointed king of Arkoland"
Ditto. Some of us have shown a bit of a nasty side, but Mr Numbers has been nothing but kind.
agreed
- Thread starter
- #118
Rhody
I'm a Lumberjack.
Too bad this went off the rails i have appreciated mr numbers through reviews in the past clearly there was some over reaction here because the captain is a stand up guy. I can hardly remember what i had for breakfast today let alone how a soap lathered up 2 weeks ago. but thats me!
