Can Great Lather be Generated from Any Reasonable Quality Shaving Soap or Cream?

[AnimalCatcher]

The only soap that I was never able to lather properly was Williams. There was some slickness to the lather, but no persistent foam. This may have been related to the fact that I only tried it early on in my DE shaving experience. I suspect that I could probably do a better job with Williams now. Nevertheless, I saw a video from Shave Nation, where Geo Fatboy also had issues with Williams.

The other soap that is very hard to lather is Ogallala Bay Rum soap. It’s a very hard puck, but you can eventually get it to work with a synthetic brush.

Mystic Waters is challenging until you learn that it needs to be loaded heavily.

All of these soaps work best with synthetic brushes and worst with boar brushes. The boar hair seems to absorb the lather more than badger hair. While synthetic bristles do not absorb either water or lather.

It may be the Williams Mug Soap that you used was manufactured after 2004. Williams was reformulated in 2005 and the change in performance was drastic. The lather from reformulated Williams is still slick, but it tends to dissipate rather quickly and is nowhere near as creamy, rich or as stable as the lather that you can whip up from the Williams Mug Soap that came before it.

Williams Mug Soap was first sold in 1904, so at least it had one hundred years of solid performance.

 

[Keyvan]

It may be the Williams Mug Soap that you used was manufactured after 2004. Williams was reformulated in 2005 and the change in performance was drastic. The lather from reformulated Williams is still slick, but it tends to dissipate rather quickly and is nowhere near as creamy, rich or as stable as the lather that you can whip up from the Williams Mug Soap that came before it.

Williams Mug Soap was first sold in 1904, so at least it had one hundred years of solid performance.

Yes, I purchased the puck in 2009 or 2010. It was somewhat slick.

 

[Garry357]

All my soaps/creams are budget. I can generate a perfectly creamy shiny lather with all.
I think technique is the key not necessarily the soap.

I bowl lather using <1gm of product, head and face shave almost daily.

 

[AnimalCatcher]

Yes, I purchased the puck in 2009 or 2010. It was somewhat slick.

If you ever come across a pre 2005 puck of Williams at a decent price, give it a try. I guarantee it will produce a slick, stable lather every time.

Reformulated Williams performs very much like the old Marvy pucks. You have to really load the brush heavily, but even then, by the time you finish lathering your face, the part where you started will already be breaking down and dissipating. Again, they're both very slick, but not very stable.

There's a video on YouTube from a few years back where a gentleman (nick shaves) is trying to get a puck of reformulated Williams to work but was ultimately unsuccessful. There's another video put out by geofatboy in response to Williams no longer selling shaving soap. In the video I'm referencing, he's using a puck of Marvy which he says is a good replacement for Willliams. In both videos, you can see the same thing happening to the lather... it breaks down.

 

[md1234]

I can get all my croaps, pucks, sticks and creams to lather great (my water is soft). The lather is shiny, slick and protective. Some of what I like to use are: Cella Extra Extra Bio, Santa Maria del Fiore, Ach. Brito Musgo, Razorock WTP, Tabac tallow, La Toja stick, Wilkinson Sword stick, TOBS creams, Palmolive Rinfrescante, Proraso (any tube) and many more

 

[JCinPA]

You can get almost any soap to lather well, if you understand it.

However, those of you who suggest you can get the same quality lather out of any soap with the right technique are just wrong. No, it's not a YMMV thing, it's wrong. As in incorrect. Factually. Objectively.

Now, mind you, one person may love a product another one hates. One product may work very well for a particular shaver, and not well for another. That's the YMMV aspect of this thing.

But the quality of particular soaps or creams vary widely in an objective way, and it generally speaking has little to do with price. That relationship is very tenuous at best. Some of the best performers are very economical, and some of the priciest products are dogs in the performance department.

You can tell me any soap is nirvana for you, or garbage for you, and I cannot argue your opinion.

But if you say all soaps/creams can give the same quality of lather, the product does not matter, it's all technique, are quite simply, objectively wrong.

And believe me, I can lather anything. Anything. I've been able to master them all, no matter how "difficult" they are to lather, you just have to understand them, and some take longer to figure out than others. But they are not all equals.

P.S. (edit) @md1234 all your products listed are considered very high performers around here, no wonder you think you get great lather with all of them, you undoubtedly do. But I could find you some substandard products you would not like as much. And @Garry357 there are a ton of budget products that work very well indeed, no need to spend a lot of money. But if you did not notice any differences in quality of lather between them, you need to get more experience, there are definitely tier 1, products, tier 2 products, and the rest. And some of my tier 1 products are very inexpensive indeed. But there are wide gaps between them. Technique helps a lot to get the most out of products, but there are still best, good, and mediocre products oute there. That's a fact.

 

[Lane101]

If you ever come across a pre 2005 puck of Williams at a decent price, give it a try. I guarantee it will produce a slick, stable lather every time.

Reformulated Williams performs very much like the old Marvy pucks. You have to really load the brush heavily, but even then, by the time you finish lathering your face, the part where you started will already be breaking down and dissipating. Again, they're both very slick, but not very stable.

There's a video on YouTube from a few years back where a gentleman (nick shaves) is trying to get a puck of reformulated Williams to work but was ultimately unsuccessful. There's another video put out by geofatboy in response to Williams no longer selling shaving soap. In the video I'm referencing, he's using a puck of Marvy which he says is a good replacement for Willliams. In both videos, you can see the same thing happening to the lather... it breaks down.

Hi AnimalCatcher and @Keyvan , It took me some time to get the ideal lather out of my Williams pucks (all recent production purchased at the grocery store from 2019-2021). In fact I started blending soaps in-part to make it easier to get great lather from Williams. The issue with Williams is that it is one of the hardest pucks and is also a small puck with less surface area than most of my other soaps. This makes it challenging to remove enough product off of the puck for good lather.

Eventually I found that a well soaked good quality stiff boar brush was what it took to get good lather with a reasonable amount of effort. Well soaked brush on a dry puck. Details of how I finally got straight Williams to work for me are in my 2021 linked post below. Moot for many, since it's discontinued now.

Link to 2021 Williams Lathering Post:

The Secret to Easy Williams Mug Soap Thick Lather: A Good Quality/Low Cost Boar Brush

Hi Everyone. My new quality Blondie boar brush easily produces excellent lather from a puck of Williams Mug shave soap. Details as follows: Background: I've been a fan of Williams Mug Shave Soap since my return to DE shaving a couple years ago thanks to its glide and slickness. Also it is the...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[JCinPA]

I used Williams daily for over 20 years before joining this forum, and was roundly ridiculed by the cognoscenti for admitting that when I joined. Then there was a fan club for it, go figure.

I'm probably the biggest expert on Williams here simply because I used it daily from about 1985 through 2011 when I joined here. I can't imagine how many pucks i went through. And I shaved in the shower.

The secret to it is to put it in a mug, fill it with water, put your brush in it and leave it while you shower. Then pour out the water, shake out the brush a little and lather it in the mug on the puck, don't "load it" and take it somewhere else like a bowl or your face. You should have a great lather in fairly short order, when it is to your liking, shave with it. It's good stuff.

That said, IMO, it cannot compare with Cella, Tabac, La Toja (former formulation) or others. It's good, but not great. It's a very usable tier 2 soap. I loved it for decades, but once I started using other stuff here, I never looked back. I was quite amused when the fan club started up because at first I was told I didn't know what I was doing because I like it. That's YMMV for you!

 

[Lane101]

You can get almost any soap to lather well, if you understand it.

However, those of you who suggest you can get the same quality lather out of any soap with the right technique are just wrong. No, it's not a YMMV thing, it's wrong. As in incorrect. Factually. Objectively.

Now, mind you, one person may love a product another one hates. One product may work very well for a particular shaver, and not well for another. That's the YMMV aspect of this thing.

But the quality of particular soaps or creams vary widely in an objective way, and it generally speaking has little to do with price. That relationship is very tenuous at best. Some of the best performers are very economical, and some of the priciest products are dogs in the performance department.

You can tell me any soap is nirvana for you, or garbage for you, and I cannot argue your opinion.

But if you say all soaps/creams can give the same quality of lather, the product does not matter, it's all technique, are quite simply, objectively wrong.

And believe me, I can lather anything. Anything. I've been able to master them all, no matter how "difficult" they are to lather, you just have to understand them, and some take longer to figure out than others. But they are not all equals.

P.S. (edit) @md1234 all your products listed are considered very high performers around here, no wonder you think you get great lather with all of them, you undoubtedly do. But I could find you some substandard products you would not like as much. And @Garry357 there are a ton of budget products that work very well indeed, no need to spend a lot of money. But if you did not notice any differences in quality of lather between them, you need to get more experience, there are definitely tier 1, products, tier 2 products, and the rest. And some of my tier 1 products are very inexpensive indeed. But there are wide gaps between them. Technique helps a lot to get the most out of products, but there are still best, good, and mediocre products oute there. That's a fact.

Sounds like you agree with the original premise in this thread that one can get any soap or cream with the right ingredients for shaving to product great lather that works well. Nothing about that statement implies that the lather of different soaps will be identical. In fact in my original post I noted that for my creams a denser lather seems to work best versus a wetter lather from my soaps. I'm getting very different lathers from my soaps versus creams yet consider both to generate great lathers that work well.

The most important message in my original post is that differences in these product require the use of different techniques to produce good lather.

Finally many here, who note generating similar quality lathers from any of their soaps, are stating that the do so from the soaps that they use. Not from all soaps that are available today. It's not surprising that someone, especially if they have a preferred technique, may have narrowed there soap rotation to only those products that work well with that method.

So you are right, all soaps don't necessarily produce identical lather and that is not the point here. It is that a dialed in technique can generate great lather from any soap with the right ingredients for shaving.

 

[JCinPA]

Yes, I do agree with the original premise of the thread. But a few folks have seemed to imply that there is no difference between soaps you can get the same quality out of any of them with the right technique. That's not YMMV, that's just wrong.

After a couple of Quaznoid's posts, I used my Duke Canon bath soap and a boar brush to lather and shave, and it worked.

But it won't replace real shaving soaps in my den. But it was a workable lather, no doubt. The original premise is sound. But there are tier 1 soaps, tier 2 soaps, then the rest. Then bath soap or what have you. Who puts what into tier 1 versus tier 2 is YMMV. Those who say there are not different quality of lather tiers, it's all technique are just flat out wrong, though.

And to quote you, "The most important message in my original post is that differences in these product require the use of different techniques to produce good lather."

That is absolutely true. It's the basis for my Foolproof process. You have to work to understand a soap properly.

 

[Lane101]

I used Williams daily for over 20 years before joining this forum, and was roundly ridiculed by the cognoscenti for admitting that when I joined. Then there was a fan club for it, go figure.

I'm probably the biggest expert on Williams here simply because I used it daily from about 1985 through 2011 when I joined here. I can't imagine how many pucks i went through. And I shaved in the shower.

The secret to it is to put it in a mug, fill it with water, put your brush in it and leave it while you shower. Then pour out the water, shake out the brush a little and lather it in the mug on the puck, don't "load it" and take it somewhere else like a bowl or your face. You should have a great lather in fairly short order, when it is to your liking, shave with it. It's good stuff.

That said, IMO, it cannot compare with Cella, Tabac, La Toja (former formulation) or others. It's good, but not great. It's a very usable tier 2 soap. I loved it for decades, but once I started using other stuff here, I never looked back. I was quite amused when the fan club started up because at first I was told I didn't know what I was doing because I like it. That's YMMV for you!

Building the Williams lather on the puck is an important call out. I use mine in an apothecary mug with plenty of extra vertical space for building the lather. Don't think this element is called out in my 2021 post linked above. This was how classic pucks like Williams, Colgate or Burma Shave were meant to be used. Recall my grandfather kept his puck of shaving soap in an old mug and did the same.

Never had to fill the mug with water though. Found I could further develop the lather via face lathering after a good proto-lather built up in the mug.

When it was 99 cents at my local grocery two and a half years ago it was the best shaving soap value out there. Glad I still have an inventory of it.

P.S. Edit, Funny, when I started using my first puck of Mitchell's Wool Fat (tallow formula) I figured that I would need to apply my Williams technique given all the similar posts on how hard it was to generate great lather with MWF. Discovered that I was pulling too much soap off the puck and had to cut loading/proto-lather building time and/or change to a softer synthetic brush instead of my boar.

 

[JCinPA]

Yes, you can take it to your face, but do it in the mug first after you've soaked it and the brush for a while.

I can safely say with a fair degree of certainty I've gone through more pucks of the stuff in my 25 years of daily use than anyone else on the forum. And I'm sure other methods work well, too, I don't have the only one. But soaking the puck and brush for a bit while you do other things, like shower, is key to its success, IMO. But that's what I did, I'm sure other ways will work, also.

It's not bad stuff at all, especially the older versions (which I was using back in the day) is good tier 2 lather. But it's objectively, I think, not the equal of something like Haslinger. Good stuff, to be sure, but not magical in any way. I am amused so many are lamenting its demise with so many better products available to us today.

Nostalgia, I guess.

P.S. and because it was a good lather, at the price, it was an amazing value, I'm not criticizing it in any way. I'm just amused by the whole thing.

 

[Fordfather]

I used Williams daily for over 20 years before joining this forum, and was roundly ridiculed by the cognoscenti for admitting that when I joined.

And I shaved in the shower.

I'll give you a pass on the Williams, but shower shaving??? Only a freak will shave in the shower

 

[JCinPA]

I was using carts at the time before finding this place and DE/SE razors. It was quick. I have a pewter bicential mug I got from Williams, had an old no-name boar brush. I’d let the brush sit in the mug on the shower floor to soak, finish with the shave was done both in ten minutes. Not fun,but it worked. Did it for years. I could be out of bed and out the front door in 20 minutes.

Now I can’t imagine not having the me time for a quality shave. So glad I found this place.

 

[phillylion]

The only soap that I was never able to lather properly was Williams. There was some slickness to the lather, but no persistent foam. This may have been related to the fact that I only tried it early on in my DE shaving experience. I suspect that I could probably do a better job with Williams now. Nevertheless, I saw a video from Shave Nation, where Geo Fatboy also had issues with Williams.

The other soap that is very hard to lather is Ogallala Bay Rum soap. It’s a very hard puck, but you can eventually get it to work with a synthetic brush.

Mystic Waters is challenging until you learn that it needs to be loaded heavily.

All of these soaps work best with synthetic brushes and worst with boar brushes. The boar hair seems to absorb the lather more than badger hair. While synthetic bristles do not absorb either water or lather.

Curious how you load up the Mystic Water soap. I recently got their Lily of the Valley. Great scent but it seems no matter how much I load it up, it seems to evaporate right on my face. I haven’t tried a synthetic yet, just badger. I’ll have to try that next.

 

[JCinPA]

Foolproof Lather Discovery Process (TM) for any soap

I am a Lather Master! Not being braggadocious, just stating a fact. And you can be too! I'm here to teach you. No need for a Brotherhood of Lather Masters, every member of B&B should be a Lather Master. Unfortunately, with so many people who enjoy this activity so much, and the more OCD of us...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Keyvan]

Curious how you load up the Mystic Water soap. I recently got their Lily of the Valley. Great scent but it seems no matter how much I load it up, it seems to evaporate right on my face. I haven’t tried a synthetic yet, just badger. I’ll have to try that next.

Mystic Waters has its own idiosyncrasies. Once you get the hang of it, the lather is nearly unmatched. I also started with Lily of the Valley. I like that scent just a little less than Jasmine and Yellow Rose, but all of her scents range from good to excellent.

With regard to the lather, keep a few things in mind:

1. The soap needs to be loaded very heavily into the brush.

2. The soap is very sensitive to the amount of water added and the rate at which the water is added.

3. Lathering this soap takes more time than lathering other soaps.

Because of point #2, a badger brush where the water has been mostly shaken out is better than a boar brush, but a synthetic brush where most of the water has been shaken out is best.

Therefore, place a few (5 to 7) drops of water on the soap and wet your brush. Shake or squeeze most of the water out of your brush and begin loading your damp brush on the puck. After 30 to 45 seconds add a few more drops of water to the top of the puck and load your brush for another 30 to 45 seconds.

The protolather on the brush will have the consistency of wood glue. That’s stickier than sour cream or yogurt.

Spread the protolather on your face. Then, add a couple of drops of water on the brush and start working the lather. Keep adding a couple of drops of water to the brush and working the lather until you feel the brush sliding across the lather, rather than sticking to it.

The final lather will be very slick and hard to wash off your face. If you add too much water or add the water too quickly, the lather will dissipate.

For now, your best bet is to use a synthetic. A Badger can work, but it takes longer.

 

[Razrnewb]

Sure, some are better than others but also realize that if your water is hard, you will have a harder time making lather. I use hard soaps almost exclusively but recently tried tubed cream squeezed right down into the bristles of a hot wet brush for face lather. Worked great, and no bowl to clean and precious little mess. This will 100% be how I travel. A small brush and tube of cream takes up no more space than a can of aerosol goo if I get to leave the bowl at home. If you do have hard water, you may want to try using some jug/bottled water for making lather. No need to rinse with it, so you won’t need much.

 

[phillylion]

Mystic Waters has its own idiosyncrasies. Once you get the hang of it, the lather is nearly unmatched. I also started with Lily of the Valley. I like that scent just a little less than Jasmine and Yellow Rose, but all of her scents range from good to excellent.

With regard to the lather, keep a few things in mind:

1. The soap needs to be loaded very heavily into the brush.

2. The soap is very sensitive to the amount of water added and the rate at which the water is added.

3. Lathering this soap takes more time than lathering other soaps.

Because of point #2, a badger brush where the water has been mostly shaken out is better than a boar brush, but a synthetic brush where most of the water has been shaken out is best.

Therefore, place a few (5 to 7) drops of water on the soap and wet your brush. Shake or squeeze most of the water out of your brush and begin loading your damp brush on the puck. After 30 to 45 seconds add a few more drops of water to the top of the puck and load your brush for another 30 to 45 seconds.

The protolather on the brush will have the consistency of wood glue. That’s stickier than sour cream or yogurt.

Spread the protolather on your face. Then, add a couple of drops of water on the brush and start working the lather. Keep adding a couple of drops of water to the brush and working the lather until you feel the brush sliding across the lather, rather than sticking to it.

The final lather will be very slick and hard to wash off your face. If you add too much water or add the water too quickly, the lather will dissipate.

For now, your best bet is to use a synthetic. A Badger can work, but it takes longer.

Thanks, Kayvan. Can’t wait to try that.

 

[Lane101]

Foolproof Lather Discovery Process (TM) for any soap

I am a Lather Master! Not being braggadocious, just stating a fact. And you can be too! I'm here to teach you. No need for a Brotherhood of Lather Masters, every member of B&B should be a Lather Master. Unfortunately, with so many people who enjoy this activity so much, and the more OCD of us...

www.badgerandblade.com

I remember when you first posted this in 2021. Nice tutorials for those that prefer direct brush loading on the soap followed by bowl lathering. They are well laid out for different types of soap from hard triple milled pucks to softer artisan and Italian soaps. Back then I didn't use any lathering bowls preferring to build lather on my hard pucks in my apothecary mugs. As I explored different products I began to use a lathering bowl with my soft Italian soaps where scooping the product helps ensure that enough is used to build a good lather.

What led you to recommending bowl lathering like this for hard pucks including Williams and MWF back in 2021? I've found that really hard pucks like Williams and MWF work best if you begin building lather right on the puck. From your post #68 above you also recommended this. Looks like you went through an evolution in your approach over the years. Curious as to what led to you changing your lathering approach preferences for really hard soaps? As always YMMV so either of these approaches can work, especially if, as noted in your approach, the hard puck is first softened by soaking in water.

My adoption of different lathering approaches, as noted in the first post on this thread, came from better understanding each product from my own trial and error as well as information shared by others here. Was it the same for you?