Black Ark (ultra fine) OR True Hard Ark (extra fine)?

[rbscebu]

I am looking at purchasing an Arkansas whetstone for finishing and am tossing up between the black or the true hard. My SRs vary in hardness from the high 50s to high 60s RHC of cabon steel and stainless steel.

This will be my first and hopefully last Arkansas whetstone. Which should I choose?

 

[Wid]

Go with the black, seems much more uniform. I believe they are the same price.

 

[cotedupy]

Worth seeing if anyone has anything to sell I’d have thought. Even a vintage Norton Translucent is probably still going to be a bit cheaper than buying new.

(I don’t have anything spare atm I’m afraid, so that’s not a sales pitch!)

 

[Empire straights]

If you are looking for a deal the primitive cut stones from Dan are the way to go. I got a 4.5" x 5.5" translucent for $50.

 

[JPO]

I only have one Arkansas stone, so take it for what it is worth. I get really good results with my translucent black/blue black.
I think Dan's rates his true hard (surgical black) as finer then the translucent.
I am no expert. I only know that my blue black is grate. I have an itch sometimes to get another one. I like to compare it with a true black (surgical black, if that is the same stone).

 

[lightfoot]

I’ve always had smoother edges coming off the black

 

[ables]

I believe most clean properly lapped and prepared hard arkansas stones with density greater than 2.6g/cm^3 should perform very similarly regardless of color or translucency. Maybe the speed or glazing changes a little bit. They all kind of settle into the same zone eventually for me. Stones 2.55-2.6 might be ok also but it just depends.

For razors I mostly use my dark grey translucent nowadays since I have the back and front at different finishes, back 320 front 500. My Dan's Black is also fantastic but needs refreshing. If you are set on only one stone then maybe go for a Dan's Black. Otherwise go for a vintage translucent, easier to see they are pure noviculite.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I only have one Arkansas stone, so take it for what it is worth. I get really good results with my translucent black/blue black.
I think Dan's rates his true hard (surgical black) as finer then the translucent.
I am no expert. I only know that my blue black is grate. I have an itch sometimes to get another one. I like to compare it with a true black (surgical black, if that is the same stone).

I have Dan’s black and blue-black. Of the advertised stones on Dan’s the black is rated as the finest. The black is also cheaper than the translucent. All grades run a spectrum as natural stones do but people tend to want the highest quality when going with Dan’s and paying his prices. IMHO anything above Dan’s hard can be capable of finishing at the highest levels capable of Arks. This can be a “true hard”, translucent of any color, black, and blue-black.

Note that Dan’s doesn’t advertise their blue-black. This is also their most expensive stone, at least that I am aware of. I have Dan’s black and blue-black. The blue-black has a slightly higher specific gravity, is more glassy feeling, and resistance to chamfering the edges is noticeably higher. That said, I have not observed any difference whatsoever on a razor when using these two stones.

Again, this strictly amongst Dan’s stones. There is a ton of junk Arks on the market at lower prices which will not remotely perform at the same level regardless of what color they are.

Three bits of advice. One, get the size stone that you like. Do not skimp on size because of money. You’ll regret it later. Two, Dan’s has authorized resellers whose prices are a little less than Dan’s. Depending upon what you are looking for you might be able to save a little bit or afford something if you have a hard upper limit on price. Three, call Dan’s or their reseller. Natural stones run a spectrum. You can ask them to select “the finest black you have on hand” and they will probably do exactly that.

 

[Empire straights]

I have Dan’s black and blue-black. Of the advertised stones on Dan’s the black is rated as the finest. The black is also cheaper than the translucent. All grades run a spectrum as natural stones do but people tend to want the highest quality when going with Dan’s and paying his prices. IMHO anything above Dan’s hard can be capable of finishing at the highest levels capable of Arks. This can be a “true hard”, translucent of any color, black, and blue-black.

Note that Dan’s doesn’t advertise their blue-black. This is also their most expensive stone, at least that I am aware of. I have Dan’s black and blue-black. The blue-black has a slightly higher specific gravity, is more glassy feeling, and resistance to chamfering the edges is noticeably higher. That said, I have not observed any difference whatsoever on a razor when using these two stones.

Again, this strictly amongst Dan’s stones. There is a ton of junk Arks on the market at lower prices which will not remotely perform at the same level regardless of what color they are.

Three bits of advice. One, get the size stone that you like. Do not skimp on size because of money. You’ll regret it later. Two, Dan’s has authorized resellers whose prices are a little less than Dan’s. Depending upon what you are looking for you might be able to save a little bit or afford something if you have a hard upper limit on price. Three, call Dan’s or their reseller. Natural stones run a spectrum. You can ask them to select “the finest black you have on hand” and they will probably do exactly that.
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100% agree. Dans finishing stones will match old norton/pike stones but with a few extra laps. Most of the(>70s) Arkansas stones I've seen that aren't from Dan's are garbage. I have a couple of smith's stones from the 80s that are good and a cabela's kit that's probably from the early 90s. I've got a browning soft ark/ coarse India coming that looks to be from the early 90s as well. New smith's soft arks are like trying to hone on granite they are so uneven gritted. I had a plastic base one that a file would do a better job of setting a bevel on a pocket knife. It had coarse salt sized gains all throughout the stone randomly. It didn't even feel like an Arkansas. In my experience it you aren't buying from dans then you probably won't come close to the quality and performance of old pike or norton stone. Preyda bought half Halls mine I've read. Quality stone was in that quarry but who knows if it's spent or not. I don't know what their qc is like but I doubt many modern companies are keeping qc like you saw in the 40s-70s.

 

[duke762]

This will be my first and hopefully last Arkansas whetstone.

Oh man, that is one grim prognosis. Like eating one potato chip. I admire your strength and gentlemanly restraint. Have you had a H.A.D. vaccine? Maybe a great Ark will push you over the edge....

A Dan's black would probably be your best bet. Since I've never tried one, true hard would be my 3rd choice though I suspect 99.8% or more of shavers, including myself, would be unable to tell the differences between the Trans/True/Black edges.

Glad to see you taking the plunge!

 

[JPO]

suspect 99.8% or more of shavers, including myself, would be unable to tell the differences between the Trans/True/Black edges.

I have wanted to get one of each, but something similar have been spinning in my head.
If the surface is prepared similarly, and you only use finishing pressure, how much difference can there be between the different grades (hard, true hard and translucent)?
If you are able to play with higher pressure, like you do when you are honing a knife, I would think the difference would be bigger.

 

[duke762]

I've been wanting to get one of each from Dan's just to see how they stack up to my vintage Norton's. I guess my vintage pink Norton Trans would be considered a true hard in Dan's classification. I have a to die for, 6" vintage trans Norton that has inclusions in the stone that can be a problem. A little carbide scribe action and it's good to go but I've never seen anyone report an inclusion in any of Dan's Trans.

I have a beater black I use on knives and just bought a beater trans for a special knife job I'm doing. I don't think I've ever noticed a grit difference on knives. What I did notice however was, the nasty black steel stripes where the knife steel had loaded my Trans Ark. I was horrified! I needed to use a black stone after that so I couldn't see what honing with knife pressure, was doing to my Trans. The beater is an 8" black from Indian Mountain. It's a lot different than a Norton black but capable of finishing razors and shines on knives.

Knives on Trans Arks, convinced me to use different Ark's on razor's than I do knives. If there is any cross over, the stone gets redressed, before ever touching my razor.

I don't subscribe to a lot of specific gravity comparison's as a basis to judge a stones ability to be top notch. If it's SG is in the range specified, all should be well. It's up to the user to max out the stones capabilities.

Consider for a moment that a Trans Ark is most likely actually the purest Ark. Colors are caused by impurities. Whether they affect honing, pro/con, I haven't seen a discussion on the subject. But it does make me ask the question, do the impurities causing blackness, some how affect the honing process, leading to it being recommended frquently over the Trans for razors?

Mister Kooby, your stones gorgeous! I have more Arks than I need and not near as many as I want...

 

[lightfoot]

I tend to think LESS about the difference between grades and MORE about the difference between individual stones. I pick up on a little more variance in abrasive capabilities within the translucent grade more so than the Black stones for some reason. Most of my translucents have relatively little abrasive power but I do have a semi-vintage NOS translucent Norton that will remove steel rather quickly without excessive pressure.
Additionally, I have a True-Hard that almost seems to be a non-cutter and actually seems to set the edge back a little regardless of surface preparation. And finally I have a NOS Soft Norton that’s impossibly hard. It’s harder to lap than the Black & Translucent stones in my collection…
So to recap, I ponder the differences WITHIN each grade rather than one grade to the next.

 

[JPO]

I tend to think LESS about the difference between grades and MORE about the difference between individual stones. I pick up on a little more variance in abrasive capabilities within the translucent grade more so than the Black stones for some reason. Most of my translucents have relatively little abrasive power but I do have a semi-vintage NOS translucent Norton that will remove steel rather quickly without excessive pressure.
Additionally, I have a True-Hard that almost seems to be a non-cutter and actually seems to set the edge back a little regardless of surface preparation. And finally I have a NOS Soft Norton that’s impossibly hard. It’s harder to lap than the Black & Translucent stones in my collection…
So to recap, I ponder the differences WITHIN each grade rather than one grade to the next.

Just when you think you know something, you figure out how little you know

 

[Empire straights]

I tend to think LESS about the difference between grades and MORE about the difference between individual stones. I pick up on a little more variance in abrasive capabilities within the translucent grade more so than the Black stones for some reason. Most of my translucents have relatively little abrasive power but I do have a semi-vintage NOS translucent Norton that will remove steel rather quickly without excessive pressure.
Additionally, I have a True-Hard that almost seems to be a non-cutter and actually seems to set the edge back a little regardless of surface preparation. And finally I have a NOS Soft Norton that’s impossibly hard. It’s harder to lap than the Black & Translucent stones in my collection…
So to recap, I ponder the differences WITHIN each grade rather than one grade to the next.

My norton translucent slip stone kicks up swarf very fast for a finishing stone. It's the only translucent I have that will cut steel so fast. My black norton slip stone is also faster than my black from Dan's. The black one is 5" and I can do 20-30 laps with lather and it's good to go.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I can't add to the already excellent advice from everybody above.

But, translucents are pretty. Photos don't do them justice. On the other hand, a big slab of Dan's black evokes this:

 

[lightfoot]

I suspect a lot of it comes down to the grain/crystal structure of ANY individual stone. Since most of the stones are 99% pure silica abrasive concentration isn’t so much of an issue. Also specific gravity can be measured with great accuracy but neither the silica content or the specific gravity really speaks to the abrasive potential or characteristics of any individual stone in any meaningful way unfortunately for us as consumers.

 

[lloydw]

Sounds like the advice is that you need both but the dans black sized to meet your budget (but as big as you can) is the logical way to go.

I recently bought a dans surgical black - only used it on about 4 razors and it’s great so far. So smooth. After reading all the posts on preparation and asking about options, I went with an 8x2 (8x3 was huge $ difference) and used w/d 600 to prep surface. No lapping or burnishing on mine, i wanted to do a few test runs. I’m now away for a few weeks so I’ll try all the prep suggestions in time.
good luck

 

[R7photo]

Dans 8x3-1

 

[Acmemfg]

Dan’s Surgical Black. Nice stone. Still prefer my Zulu Grey though.