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Black Ark (ultra fine) OR True Hard Ark (extra fine)?

I was completely unaware that his stock was quarried before the green label norton hard Arks. It make perfect sense though because of the dozens of Arks I have around here, Dan's are the only ones that compare to old Norton or pike hard Arks.

I was actually joking about the fact that Dan's stones have been in the ground longer than a 50-year-old vintage Norton.

Bottom line is Dan's has a quarry/ies with very high-quality stones. Here is a photo of Dan inside a black quarry:

 
The one that is coming here is a red-boxed version. Fingers crossed that it is good for razors. Always a roll of the dice with quarried stones...

Other than using it with oil, did you find there was anything squirrelly about prepping the stone? I'm expecting garden-variety flattening and surface dressing.


You'll definitely need to flatten it, but they're slates so very quick and easy.

There is some variation in the coarseness / fineness of YLs, but the majority I'd say would be in finishing territory. The yellow and red box versions are just different sizes of the same thing ime.
 
For all practical purposes, an Arkansas stone set up like this should be able to handle 99.9% of all sharpening/honing tasks.
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Surprised to hear this. The 70’s-80’s era Nortons are spectacular stones from my experience.
Absolutely; in fact I had a current Norton Trans a few years ago and it was top flight. Several from the 90s were just as good. I know someone who recently purchased a new-new trans, 6x2" I think - gorgeous stone, works like it should and stands shoulder to shoulder with the old-school stuff.

Dan's translucent was their best last time I did a side-by-side comparison. Their rating system is more marketing than anything else. Longhaultanker's interview details that. The 'true hard' thing never sat right with me. Sort of a red-headed stepchild kinda thing. Their ratings are not not based on any standardized system. Just is what it is.

Dan's translucent grey stones he had last time I was buying were top flight. The so called 'ultra-fine' black was good but the grey stone was better by a coupla hairs. Either would fill the bill though.
I would assume the results of testing many examples of those two across several years might show one side or another to squeak past the other - depending on the mother block, the cut, etc.
Oscars (Preyda) 'surgical' black was also outstanding. That was the one I kept out that series of tests.... still have it.
 
My norton translucent slip stone kicks up swarf very fast for a finishing stone. It's the only translucent I have that will cut steel so fast. My black norton slip stone is also faster than my black from Dan's. The black one is 5" and I can do 20-30 laps with lather and it's good to go.
I have a bizarre fixation with Arkansas slip stones for some reason. I have an old pike that is other-worldly to hone on just as far as the vibe goes. Lots of mojo for sure. Then I have a current production Norton Hard/Trans slip stone that’s a little smaller but still engaging to hone on and honestly offers up a nice smoothing effect on disagreeable steels that are hard to smooth out otherwise. In fact I don’t do a lot of work beyond just sweetening the edge a little after a 10,000 synthetic. As soon as the edge has chilled out a bit I usually get off the stone.
 
I have wanted to get one of each, but something similar have been spinning in my head.
If the surface is prepared similarly, and you only use finishing pressure, how much difference can there be between the different grades (hard, true hard and translucent)?
If you are able to play with higher pressure, like you do when you are honing a knife, I would think the difference would be bigger.
Pressure is an important point with these stones that others could weigh in on too but here’s my take….
More pressure can/may help seemingly slow stones cut faster like leaning into a chisel on a translucent for example. Even the high-end polishing stones will definitely remove steel but are often pressure-dependent. The problem is that you just can’t use tool sharpening pressure on straight razors or you’ll wind up with flex issues and other problems. I suspect that’s why most people suggest to take the razor as far out as you can with fast acting synthetics so that a finishing level Arkansas stone can continue to develop the edge without the need for higher than usual pressure.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Pressure is an important point with these stones that others could weigh in on too but here’s my take….
More pressure can/may help seemingly slow stones cut faster like leaning into a chisel on a translucent for example. Even the high-end polishing stones will definitely remove steel but are often pressure-dependent. The problem is that you just can’t use tool sharpening pressure on straight razors or you’ll wind up with flex issues and other problems. I suspect that’s why most people suggest to take the razor as far out as you can with fast acting synthetics so that a finishing level Arkansas stone can continue to develop the edge without the need for higher than usual pressure.
That makes sense to me.
 

duke762

Rose to the occasion
The problem is that you just can’t use tool sharpening pressure on straight razors or you’ll wind up with flex issues and other problems. I suspect that’s why most people suggest to take the razor as far out as you can with fast acting synthetics so that a finishing level Arkansas stone can continue to develop the edge without the need for higher than usual pressure.

Absolutely! That is why I rail against burnishing the Ark. Burnishing will cause you to use more pressure just so you can feel the stone. A finely dressed Ark will refine the edge with less pressure. Let the stone do it's thing that it does so well. You should be able to feel anything that the Ark is refining, let it do it's work. Most of the feel of refinement is gone for me in under 100 laps but I press on. I'm positive I rarely do 200....it's too hard to count that high while maintaining the focus needed for the job at hand. I don't count laps as a practice but I'm trying to give a fairly accurate guesstimation of my experiences.
 
It’s no secret that Arks are my favourite finisher. I would give them a call and see if the still have any of those blue-blacks in stock. If you like the diamond edges, you’re going to love the Arkansas edge. They’re great stones. I wouldn’t sweat the black/trans thing too much. There won’t be much difference between the two. Surface prep and density are the deciding factors.
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I have decided to put off buying a black Ark for the time being. Instead I have purchase a C.V. Heljestrand Mk 24 4/8 straight razor. It is probably better for me to first learn to max out my Cnat and vintage coticule before venturing into other natural whetstones. It's a deep hole and I want to fall slowly.
 
Bit of a hijack… I’m seriously thinking about getting an ark as my first finisher. Right now I use film, my usual progression for honing is 12-9-3-1um, and I’ll touch up on the 1um only. The ark would replace the 1um film in the progression and for touchups. Would that work? Anything to watch out for with a mixed film and ark progression?
 
Bit of a hijack… I’m seriously thinking about getting an ark as my first finisher. Right now I use film, my usual progression for honing is 12-9-3-1um, and I’ll touch up on the 1um only. The ark would replace the 1um film in the progression and for touchups. Would that work? Anything to watch out for with a mixed film and ark progression?
I'd use the ark after the 1um, not in place of it.
 
Bit of a hijack… I’m seriously thinking about getting an ark as my first finisher. Right now I use film, my usual progression for honing is 12-9-3-1um, and I’ll touch up on the 1um only. The ark would replace the 1um film in the progression and for touchups. Would that work? Anything to watch out for with a mixed film and ark progression?
A hard Arkansas would work really as a finisher following the film progression. You would not need the 1 micron film anymore for touch ups. As started above, you’re best going all the way through to 1 micron film prior to going to the Ark.

The Ark is like a post finisher. You want to have a pretty decent shaving edge going into it. The Ark will make a good edge better.

As is standard practice with the film you want to make sure that you squeeze as much water and air out from under the film as possible. The film is slightly compressible and the layer of water under the film adds to this effect. You want to use light pressure on the films and make sure that you don’t convex the edge. The Ark is not compressible at all. It will leave very straight bevels leading into the apex.
 
I think @Seelector is referring to using the Ark for only touch-up instead of using the the 1μm for touch-up. He would still be using his 1μm film in his normal honing progression.
I originally meant using the Ark instead of 1um film for both the progression and touch ups. No 1um film used for anything.

This seems to be wrong though. Better to use it as a post finisher after 1um film, and also use it for touch ups. I want to say this is what I’ll do, but I’d need to buy one first 🤣
 
The film is slightly compressible and the layer of water under the film adds to this effect. You want to use light pressure on the films and make sure that you don’t convex the edge.
100% true. Earlier tonight I was giving my MK24 touchup on 3um and 1um and used lighter pressure than I normally do. It ended up as sharp as anything I’ve ever honed. It was easy and quick and felt like a real breakthrough. I think I’ve been using too much pressure on films this whole time.
 
I originally meant using the Ark instead of 1um film for both the progression and touch ups. No 1um film used for anything.

This seems to be wrong though. Better to use it as a post finisher after 1um film, and also use it for touch ups. I want to say this is what I’ll do, but I’d need to buy one first 🤣
As far as touchups go it will really depend on the condition of the edge--how much touchup it needs and why. You can always try it and see what works for you.
 
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