Probably its the first time a real Frankonian ;-) because none of the stones before shown or sold were given a reference where they really had their origin....
Bavarian-Frankonian Hones
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Probably its the first time a real Frankonian ;-) because none of the stones before shown or sold were given a reference where they really had their origin....
I never really paid much attention to the frankonians sold by Olivia, but didn't she say her source said they were from the Franconia region of Germany? I don't know if she ever narrowed it down further or if that was found later to be false, however.
Yeah correct that was the information, but never more detailled nor anybody else had any other Information....
There where just too many Slate mines in this area, so we just don`t know. She stated that they where from frankonia, and the one i got was a very fine one. We came to the conclusion that it is just slow and superfine, the slurry was much coarser, and the stone itself, at least mine and the others (taking part testing these stones) are not able to polish the slurry stage out with just water. It was just good for refining an at least 10k synth or Escher edge (within min. 100 Passes with an extra layer of tape).
Greets Sebastian.
I definitely know that feeling. Dealing with a stone that shouldn't be used as a hone, but because it's very fine and can, to some degree, remove steel; people think it's automatically a suitable razor hone. It's even more fun when the stone damages an edge enough to actually degrade it through fatigue, rather than abrasion. Struggling to avoid that element is just barrels of fun.
Just wanted to share my "personal" findings or "experiences" i had so far with Peters "Bavarian-Frankonian Hone".
As its my personal statement it might be different from what Peter did experience...
The most interesting talking about the properties of these stones is that they have a very wide range they can be used...setting a razors Bevel with a 1k stone its easily possible to grab the Bavarian Stone and use it afterwards till the Bevel is finished...
It can be compared to the properties which coticules give when they are used with a thick slurry and working the bevel further more to a finish with water f.ex. Dillocut...
The difference in the End is that the Bavarian-Frankonian gives a very smooth shave, probably a bit smoother then i experienced with fine Thuringian Stones. I have to admit the the Edge these stones give, compared in smoothness to a Thuri are different! I cant explain it myself but you can seriuosly feel that the edge wasnt finished with a Thuri...a fact i firstly didnt realized that much personally, but my girlfriend (yeah she uses a straight on her legs) did feel a difference with two straights i gave her. One was finished with a Thuri the other with the Bavarian-Frankonian...so it seems not be only my feeling...
So lets show some more pictures, this is a 5/8 Wade & Butcher Special "Sheffield Steel" i used to experiment a bit past the last two months and i have two rubbers i use on the Bavarian-Frankonian, one is a red Jnat which is much softer and a UK very Hard Slate stone which is harder then Peters Stone...
i dont think that any of the rubbers give a relevant use to the slurry itself, especially the Jnat, but its a good color Indicator to see how metall is removed...the slate is very hard it only creates slurry from the Bavarian-Frankonian.
The first pictures show the slurry created with both stones after 20 laps, the stone in combination with a thick slurry is a fast cutter which sounds very coarse (you can hear it also from the sounding when honing, especially on thinner grinds)....
Jnat rubber, 20 Laps with pressure:
Hard Slate rubber, 20 Laps with Pressure:
Futher more after 40 laps with less pressure:
So you can see the stones work very fast! I prefer to dillute the slurry several times until i wash of the stone and proceed with plain water...
Interesting is that it seems when using a thick slurry on the stone and doing several laps (50-80) i had the feeling that the slurry changes a bit in thinking of its working capacy...it seemed working slower after some time...probably a usual behavior i dont know...
The Bevel in its optical appearance is less shiny then honed on a Thuri, it also seems that the stones are a bit lower in grit, but thats just my feeling and doesnt effect the result in shaving.
So these are my findings!
I really like the stones in their appearance and in their working properties and i well appreciate Peters Research here! This is one of my personal "Keepers" and its beside my Thuri Bouts, some Cotis and two Special Stones one of my most Interesting stones i have...
Thanks Peter!
As its my personal statement it might be different from what Peter did experience...
The most interesting talking about the properties of these stones is that they have a very wide range they can be used...setting a razors Bevel with a 1k stone its easily possible to grab the Bavarian Stone and use it afterwards till the Bevel is finished...
It can be compared to the properties which coticules give when they are used with a thick slurry and working the bevel further more to a finish with water f.ex. Dillocut...
The difference in the End is that the Bavarian-Frankonian gives a very smooth shave, probably a bit smoother then i experienced with fine Thuringian Stones. I have to admit the the Edge these stones give, compared in smoothness to a Thuri are different! I cant explain it myself but you can seriuosly feel that the edge wasnt finished with a Thuri...a fact i firstly didnt realized that much personally, but my girlfriend (yeah she uses a straight on her legs) did feel a difference with two straights i gave her. One was finished with a Thuri the other with the Bavarian-Frankonian...so it seems not be only my feeling...
So lets show some more pictures, this is a 5/8 Wade & Butcher Special "Sheffield Steel" i used to experiment a bit past the last two months and i have two rubbers i use on the Bavarian-Frankonian, one is a red Jnat which is much softer and a UK very Hard Slate stone which is harder then Peters Stone...
i dont think that any of the rubbers give a relevant use to the slurry itself, especially the Jnat, but its a good color Indicator to see how metall is removed...the slate is very hard it only creates slurry from the Bavarian-Frankonian.
The first pictures show the slurry created with both stones after 20 laps, the stone in combination with a thick slurry is a fast cutter which sounds very coarse (you can hear it also from the sounding when honing, especially on thinner grinds)....
Jnat rubber, 20 Laps with pressure:
Hard Slate rubber, 20 Laps with Pressure:
Futher more after 40 laps with less pressure:
So you can see the stones work very fast! I prefer to dillute the slurry several times until i wash of the stone and proceed with plain water...
Interesting is that it seems when using a thick slurry on the stone and doing several laps (50-80) i had the feeling that the slurry changes a bit in thinking of its working capacy...it seemed working slower after some time...probably a usual behavior i dont know...
The Bevel in its optical appearance is less shiny then honed on a Thuri, it also seems that the stones are a bit lower in grit, but thats just my feeling and doesnt effect the result in shaving.
So these are my findings!
I really like the stones in their appearance and in their working properties and i well appreciate Peters Research here! This is one of my personal "Keepers" and its beside my Thuri Bouts, some Cotis and two Special Stones one of my most Interesting stones i have...
Thanks Peter!
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- #27
Well at first I would like to thank Sebastian (sharpchef) and Sebastian (Doorsch) for their testing of the stones and their replies here with plenty of information on how the stones perform and how they could be compared to other natural hones.
As already stated these hones don't have anything in common with the hones sold by Olivia some years ago. Olivia did mention in one of the first posts about her "Frankonians" on the old Shaveready-forum that they were found by her brother approxiamately 40 km south from the old thuringian quarries. In the information about these hones on her webside, you found under "Benny's review" here:
http://www.olivia-seife.com/franke.htm
the information, that the stones were mined in Lotharheil. Well that is possible - Lotharheil is in Frankonian and it is about 40 km away from Steinach/ Sonneberg, the old thuringian mines. Lotharheil is the slate mine of Manfred Teichmann and produces mainly roof slate (lower devonian age slate). It is also known that Lotharheil delivers some traders with razor hones (from the same roof slate) that are sometimes sold under the name "Thuringian" nowadays.
Manfred Teichmann told me, that from time to time he found green, blue and brown slate banks within the roof slate layers. When we spoke last time (about 3 years ago) as I visited his mine he promissed me to send some samples as soon as he find some new stuff of the green/ brown slates. But until today I am still waiting on these stones. I have remebered him several times, but -he is a very busy man - and razor hones are not really a provit-making business for him.
So there is at least a certain probability that Olivias Frankonians are from the slate mine of Lotharheil.
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Here is just a little slurry darkening speed comparison:
The amount of slurry produced by gently using of a DMT 325 (worn out one), the coti was also slurried with the dmt, just to compare. The frankonian in this case is the nearly white one, a little harder then the Jnat (rated 4,5 by maxim) the softest is the LaVeinette. I used the same pressure to raise the slurry and the same amount of strokes with dmt.
after 10 strokes with the same straight (full hollow ground) with a little preassure. The coti slurried the most, and is a quite fast one about the half of the slurry turned dark, the Nakayama showed only slight darkening, while the frankonian slurry is completely darkened (and this is the slowest of the "good" ones).
When you compare to Sebastians pictures, there is a advantage of using DMT or other Diamond abrassives too slurry them. With other Slurrys like Thüri, different Jnat and even coti slurry they are not as fast.
After every stone i got back to a Chosera 1k, and went to another stone. The Coti refined it maybe to 2k level, the Jnat did nearly nothing(even it is a quite fast one), and the frankonian refined the straight too about 3-4k level.
Greets Sebastian.
The amount of slurry produced by gently using of a DMT 325 (worn out one), the coti was also slurried with the dmt, just to compare. The frankonian in this case is the nearly white one, a little harder then the Jnat (rated 4,5 by maxim) the softest is the LaVeinette. I used the same pressure to raise the slurry and the same amount of strokes with dmt.
after 10 strokes with the same straight (full hollow ground) with a little preassure. The coti slurried the most, and is a quite fast one about the half of the slurry turned dark, the Nakayama showed only slight darkening, while the frankonian slurry is completely darkened (and this is the slowest of the "good" ones).
When you compare to Sebastians pictures, there is a advantage of using DMT or other Diamond abrassives too slurry them. With other Slurrys like Thüri, different Jnat and even coti slurry they are not as fast.
After every stone i got back to a Chosera 1k, and went to another stone. The Coti refined it maybe to 2k level, the Jnat did nearly nothing(even it is a quite fast one), and the frankonian refined the straight too about 3-4k level.
Greets Sebastian.
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Yes Sebastian i can underline the statement that the DMT slurry was the fastet slurry created on the frankonian, and the amount of slurry which can be created is more then i used to get with my two sample slurry stones. I just dont prefer DMT slurry thats why i picked the vey hard UK Slate as a rubber stone which works quite good...
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- #30
Yeah it seems that the DMT breaks more abrasive quartz particles from the hone surface than other slurry stones. Also it doesn't seem that the DMT breaks or rounds the quartz particles a lot - like this is the case with the coticule garnets if you raise slurry with DMT on a coti.
I normally use frankonian slurry stones, this works best for me because the slurry is generated from both, the slurry stone and the hone and I didn't found much difference in speed to using a DMT. Although it is bit more difficult to raise slurry.
I normally use frankonian slurry stones, this works best for me because the slurry is generated from both, the slurry stone and the hone and I didn't found much difference in speed to using a DMT. Although it is bit more difficult to raise slurry.
Well, just created a Vid with the new Bavarian-Frankonian Bout Stone i got from Peter. Thanks for that!!
Nothing about properties, slurry, etc..just plain nature of the stone and a bit of Water ;-)
http://youtu.be/QRWPn2xZwHo
Nothing about properties, slurry, etc..just plain nature of the stone and a bit of Water ;-)
http://youtu.be/QRWPn2xZwHo
Forgive me for skimming, but why all the testing with unmatched stones? Why not just slurry with a Frankonian rubbing stone (as Peter says he does) and be done with it? Aren't you convoluting your results by mixing in particles from other stones and/or fracturing the abrasives with the dmt?
Easy question Ian, i just had no Tomo of the Bavarian before
and as mentioned on of the slurries is a very very hard one, iam quite shure it doesnt effect the slurry in a relevant manner.....The Jnat Tomo, i mentioned in my post was to give an optical Indicator to see the darkening in comparison to the red Jnat slurry. This one effects the honing as its getting the slurry to work more fast....
Personally I have used a lot of stones with DMT slurry and Tomo slurry just to compare, and I don't see much difference in the end result. Sometimes there is a slight cutting speed advantage to DMT slurry in the very beginning of honing but this usually levels out pretty quickly, and I don't notice any difference in the resulting edges or scratch patterns/finishes.
Yep, im the same. The big difference is, for me, on ultra hard jnats. Dmt slurry is definitely thicker and faster.
Easy question Ian, i just had no Tomo of the Bavarian before
The Jnat Tomo, i mentioned in my post was to give an optical Indicator to see the darkening in comparison to the red Jnat slurry. This one effects the honing as its getting the slurry to work more fast....
I got a single piece of the frankonian and lapped it bevore use. Everytime i do this with every stone i do a quick check with a little carbon kitchenknife, and was astonished about the speed. After lapping i tryed many different Slurrystones (Thüri, Coti, Ohira, Nakayama, Ohzuku) and did not get any good results with them (in terms of sharpening speed).
With a matching "tomo" the speed is nearly the same as with DMT.
I got a few tomonagura and some mikawa nagura, i tested even more, and i still prefer my good old worn out 325 DMT as Slurrystone on my Jnats.
The only exception is my Ohtaniyama Asagi Kamisori Jnat that works better with a Suita slurry stone.
Maybe iam the only coticule user who doesn`t slurry them, even for bevel reset i don`t use slurry, but the coti has to be fast.
Greets Sebastian.
Here are some bad pictures, about the honing capability of this kind of hone:
I unfortunately forgot to shot a pic of the damage, it was clearly visible with eyes only.
I rubbed a dmt slurry on the bigger frankonian.
This was the serious damaged tip of a WICAWA Solingen i got recently for sharpening.
After 2 minutes the tip looked like this!
2 minutes more on the hone, the slurry looses his aggressive speed, and the tip is nearly ready.
So i rubbed another dmt slurry and did some more passes (about 2 minutes again.) And about 2 minutes more for a little slurry diluting.
I do about 2 strokes per second, iam used to this of sharpening speed. Again i have to tell this would take the same time with a Naniwa Chosera 3k hone (with the same honing stroke motion), and at this point the razor is shaveready, at a good coti niveau. I will finish this one with some strokes on water only, maybe another 2 minutes, and then it will be better than a thüri finish, in no time at all.
So from badly chipped too shavereadyness in about 8 minutes!
Again I really love this hones!
I unfortunately forgot to shot a pic of the damage, it was clearly visible with eyes only.
I rubbed a dmt slurry on the bigger frankonian.
This was the serious damaged tip of a WICAWA Solingen i got recently for sharpening.
After 2 minutes the tip looked like this!
2 minutes more on the hone, the slurry looses his aggressive speed, and the tip is nearly ready.
So i rubbed another dmt slurry and did some more passes (about 2 minutes again.) And about 2 minutes more for a little slurry diluting.
I do about 2 strokes per second, iam used to this of sharpening speed. Again i have to tell this would take the same time with a Naniwa Chosera 3k hone (with the same honing stroke motion), and at this point the razor is shaveready, at a good coti niveau. I will finish this one with some strokes on water only, maybe another 2 minutes, and then it will be better than a thüri finish, in no time at all.
So from badly chipped too shavereadyness in about 8 minutes!
Again I really love this hones!
Harder stones do seem to make the biggest difference in my experience also but I think that is more due to increased volume of slurry rather than any kind of "fracturing" or cleaving of particles personally. Most very hard stones make it very difficult to raise much more than a thin smear of slurry with a like rubbing stone, where with a diamond plate a thick slurry can comparatively easily be raised.
Eric, you are bang on.
After honing on Jnats endlessly for a good long while now - repeatedly - I've found that using a DMT is the absolute worst method of raising slurry on a Jnat.
Not only does it create an uneven slurry - the slurry is, inevitably - too coarse to start off with. Zero point in putting that level of 'grit' in front of a properly done Koma slurry pre-finish. It's a complete waste of time actually.
Adding in the possibility/probability of losing a piece of diamond that will destroy hours of work. Well - to me, not only is it the last method I'd choose I see it as being too much of a gamble. I'd rather just shave off the Koma. But that's just how I see it.
In case you're wondering, yes- I have experienced edge damage from a loose diamond first hand. I've also had Jnats rip the stones and the nickel substrate right off those cards, and the little interrupted surfac jammies too.
I put the DMT slurry cards and sticks away for good a long while ago.
I have a small Atoma 1200x that I will, uber rarely, use to raise a slurry on a stone I don't have a Tomo for. I know, hard to believe that I might not have a matched Tomo for any/everything but it does happen. Honesly - I found better results using a non matched Tomo; e.g. an Okudo Suita Tomo on a super hard Nakayama Suita. So, to me - all the diamond slurry stuff is, seemingly, pointless.
But, hey - not everyone hones the same way or realizes the same results or whatever - so whatever works for whoever is whatever works for them I guess.
Takeshi said it best - 'Using a diamond nagura isn't a problem until it's a problem". I laughed when I read that in his email.
So simple - so true - a prefect Takeshi-ism.
Not only does it create an uneven slurry - the slurry is, inevitably - too coarse to start off with. Zero point in putting that level of 'grit' in front of a properly done Koma slurry pre-finish. It's a complete waste of time actually.
Adding in the possibility/probability of losing a piece of diamond that will destroy hours of work. Well - to me, not only is it the last method I'd choose I see it as being too much of a gamble. I'd rather just shave off the Koma. But that's just how I see it.
In case you're wondering, yes- I have experienced edge damage from a loose diamond first hand. I've also had Jnats rip the stones and the nickel substrate right off those cards, and the little interrupted surfac jammies too.
I put the DMT slurry cards and sticks away for good a long while ago.
I have a small Atoma 1200x that I will, uber rarely, use to raise a slurry on a stone I don't have a Tomo for. I know, hard to believe that I might not have a matched Tomo for any/everything but it does happen. Honesly - I found better results using a non matched Tomo; e.g. an Okudo Suita Tomo on a super hard Nakayama Suita. So, to me - all the diamond slurry stuff is, seemingly, pointless.
But, hey - not everyone hones the same way or realizes the same results or whatever - so whatever works for whoever is whatever works for them I guess.
Takeshi said it best - 'Using a diamond nagura isn't a problem until it's a problem". I laughed when I read that in his email.
So simple - so true - a prefect Takeshi-ism.
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