Time/Agitation Is Also an Ingredient When Building Lather

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

+1

I have never in 15 years of wet shaving ever achieved a lather as good with a brush as I can do with hand lathering. I've tried many brushes, from my $10 RR Big Bruce to my $150 silvertip Shave-Mac. This has held true for every soap I own all the way from my Arko to my Grooming Dept soaps. It's not for lack of trying either. Honestly, I keep trying with brushes hoping that one magical day I'll discover some secret that's been eluding me for years. I love absolutely everything about using a brush when shaving, except the lather is always disappointing.

Hand lathering is simplicity itself. The only thing trick is to keep things very, very wet. If soap hasn't dripped in a line of suds down to my elbow by the end of a shave, I know I didn't use enough water. As long as I carefully monitor the moisture level throughout the shave by adding a few drops of water to my palm periodically, no brush lather has ever come close. YMMV though.

Having said all that, I've yet to try the "expedited" lathering method described above. I have my fingers crossed that it will finally make an honest brush latherer out of me. Thanks for the great write-up Grant!

My pleasure, Nick. Thanks for your fascinating feedback. I've never tried face lathering with my hand instead of a brush. I'm curious how a quick or shortened face lather with a brush will work for you. Please, if you give it a go soon, get back here and let us know how it went.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

@ShavingByTheNumbers and @Tokyospike

I hate to back out so quickly, but I wrote that when I was at work today. Once I arrived home, SWMBO reminded me that we have to be packed up as much as possible one week from today for our cross state move. I will only be doing a Fixed from that day for about a month, and I have to get her approval on the scent I’m planning on using for that time period. All of that to say: I unfortunately won’t have the time in the next week to actually accomplish this level of testing.

I’m spending this evening packing up all of clothes except those needed for the next week.

I hate moving.

Hope Spike’s experiment goes well and gives you some more data!

No problem, Joel. Thanks for getting back and letting us know. You've certainly got your hands full. Good luck with the move!

 

[Raven Koenes]

I like to think I've found a perfect balance between slickness and cushion.

With my boar brushes I soak for ten minutes. I then give it two very light shakes keeping the brush still very wet. I then load the soap until the big bubbles dissipate into smaller bubbles and there is drag (the drag is important). I then wet my face and swirl the brush on my face then paint. If I can see skin through the soap it's not enough. If it seems like it is two thick I do the peak test. I tap the brush on the lather that creates peaks. If the peaks don't dissipate it is not hydrated enough. It is a rare occurrence anymore that I do the peak test because of the way I load described above.

I load my badgers mainly with creams. I wet the brush with warm tap water squeeze the brush lightly (probably a no, no) and then shake three or four times until it's pretty dry. I then add a dollop of cream. I put about a teaspoon to a tablespoon of water in the bottom of my empty VDH soap bowl depending on the cream and swirl to make make sure the cream saturates the tips evenly. I then repeat the face lathering steps above with the same results. If I'm loading soap with my badgers I don't start so dry as when using cream or as wet as I do with my boars. I try for a happy medium as badgers hold a lot of water. Then I directly face lather skipping the water in the bowl step.

99% of the time the lather is right the first time and a happy medium between cushion and thickness. In the last day or so I've increased the face lathering time to around a minute and a half to two minutes on the first lathering pass. The soap seems to build a nice creamy lather with no skin see through easier, and it appears that working the lather, for that amount of time, in that first pass actually helps build up the soap in the brush making lathering of subsequent passes easier. I have not found that increased face lathering time affects slickness but may increase cushion. Further studies are needed.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I like to think I've found a perfect balance between slickness and cushion.

With my boar brushes I soak for ten minutes. I then give it two very light shakes keeping the brush still very wet. I then load the soap until the big bubbles dissipate into smaller bubbles and there is drag (the drag is important). I then wet my face and swirl the brush on my face then paint. If I can see skin through the soap it's not enough. If it seems like it is two thick I do the peak test. I tap the brush on the lather that creates peaks. If the peaks don't dissipate it is not hydrated enough. It is a rare occurrence anymore that I do the peak test because of the way I load described above.

I load my badgers mainly with creams. I wet the brush with warm tap water squeeze the brush lightly (probably a no, no) and then shake three or four times until it's pretty dry. I then add a dollop of cream. I put about a teaspoon to a tablespoon of water in the bottom of my empty VDH soap bowl depending on the cream and swirl to make make sure the cream saturates the tips evenly. I then repeat the face lathering steps above with the same results. If I'm loading soap with my badgers I don't start so dry as when using cream or as wet as I do with my boars. I try for a happy medium as badgers hold a lot of water. Then I directly face lather skipping the water in the bowl step.

99% of the time the lather is right the first time and a happy medium between cushion and thickness. In the last day or so I've increased the face lathering time to around a minute and a half to two minutes on the first lathering pass. The soap seems to build a nice creamy lather with no skin see through easier, and it appears that working the lather, for that amount of time, in that first pass actually helps build up the soap in the brush making lathering of subsequent passes easier. I have not found that increased face lathering time affects slickness but may increase cushion. Further studies are needed.

Thanks, Rave. Your description of a happy medium between slickness and cushion makes sense. I'm glad that you know what works for you. Even though you haven't found increased face lathering time affecting slickness, I think that you'd find that with the further studies that you said are needed. About seeing skin upon application, I get that quite a bit, more so with some soaps than others, because I'm trying different water-to-soap ratios and sacrificing cushion for slickness. Rarely now do I use a lather that is thick enough to completely cover my skin and not have any skin show through.

 

[Cal]

Rarely now do I use a lather that is thick enough to completely cover my skin and not have any skin show through.

Pic required.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Pic required.

No picture is needed. Lather on skin either completely hides the skin or you see some skin color show through. The large majority of lathers that I use these days are not thick enough to completely hide the skin. In my last post, I should have written "hide" instead of "cover". Sorry about that, buddy.

 

[Raven Koenes]

Thanks, Rave. Your description of a happy medium between slickness and cushion makes sense. I'm glad that you know what works for you. Even though you haven't found increased face lathering time affecting slickness, I think that you'd find that with the further studies that you said are needed. About seeing skin upon application, I get that quite a bit, more so with some soaps than others, because I'm trying different water-to-soap ratios and sacrificing cushion for slickness. Rarely now do I use a lather that is thick enough to completely cover my skin and not have any skin show through.

I will keep up the studies. I am finding my happy medium between slickness and cushion is within a narrow parameter, just to clarify, regardless of face lathering time for now. I may find it does lose some slickness but right now it seems not by much. Slickness is nice but I tend towards a preference to cushion over slickness. I'm happy you're stretching the limits of slickness in the name of science. I don't think there is much room for stretching the limits of cushion. Cushion gets to the point of clogging the razor and drying relatively quicker and is more narrow of a window I think.

 

[SoullessSingularity]

Question: how does this affect re-lathering? The brush is sitting there for however long a pass takes, and hen you lather up the next pass.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I will keep up the studies. I am finding my happy medium between slickness and cushion is within a narrow parameter, just to clarify, regardless of face lathering time for now. I may find it does lose some slickness but right now it seems not by much. Slickness is nice but I tend towards a preference to cushion over slickness. I'm happy you're stretching the limits of slickness in the name of science. I don't think there is much room for stretching the limits of cushion. Cushion gets to the point of clogging the razor and drying relatively quicker and is more narrow of a window I think.

That's cool, Rave. I know what you're saying about pushing the limits of cushion. I used to make lather that clogged the razor and took more time to rinse because it was so thick with a lot of cushion. What you wrote about being able to increase cushion with little to no sacrifice in slickness sounds good.

 

[Vineeze]

I did a face lather this morning using Derby stick rubbed on a wet face and used a stopwatch. It took me almost EXACTLY 1 minute of face lathering and resulted in a fine shave this morning.

So I agree with the theory. And its really great news to me because I am trying to cut down the time of my shaves since I am a daily shaver. I've been saying all along that a thin, watery lather provides the best protection as opposed to the YouTube celebrities and their huge Arko-Man beards.

And I think most men that do a FFFM for a month will discover the same.

In fact here is my lather on pass 3, alot of men will be scared to death to shave with that but it works just fine:

http://image.ibb.co/hZci97/pass3.jpg

EDIT: Hmmm, thats weird I dont know why the picture wont show up. Had to post the link instead

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Question: how does this affect re-lathering? The brush is sitting there for however long a pass takes, and hen you lather up the next pass.

That's a good question. Lather changes a little over time for all of us as time marches forward and water evaporation occurs. Lather gets thicker over time, but from my first pass to my third pass, I don't notice any significant difference because I'm not taking a super long time to shave. Very few of us would take so long that their lathers would change that much over their shaves. My re-lathering is no different than any other's. After the first pass, though, I do evacuate the brush, scraping out the lather, and briefly swirl the lather and reevaluate its sheen and consistency.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I did a face lather this morning using Derby stick rubbed on a wet face and used a stopwatch. It took me almost EXACTLY 1 minute of face lathering and resulted in a fine shave this morning.

So I agree with the theory. And its really great news to me because I am trying to cut down the time of my shaves since I am a daily shaver. I've been saying all along that a thin, watery lather provides the best protection as opposed to the YouTube celebrities and their huge Arko-Man beards.

And I think most men that do a FFFM for a month will discover the same.

In fact here is my lather on pass 3, alot of men will be scared to death to shave with that but it works just fine:

http://image.ibb.co/hZci97/pass3.jpg

EDIT: Hmmm, thats weird I dont know why the picture wont show up. Had to post the link instead

Great post, @Vineeze! Thanks! That is a thin lather. I'm glad that it worked well for you. There are other advocates here for thin, watery lathers. My write-up in the OP supports it, since less lather-building time goes with less structure and more slickness, but I don't advocate for one type of lather because I think that it depends on the soap or cream. Based on my optimization results, there is a "best" amount of water for each soap and cream as lather-building time is generally minimized. The resulting lather might be very thin or not so thin. I have yet to experience an optimized lather, though, that is thick with good cushion. You're right about the wrong impression of what good lather is that we get from some YouTubers. That's a good part of why I used to think that building a lot of volume was making good lather. I didn't even consider that I could "stop short" and use a lather that didn't look "finished".

 

[SoullessSingularity]

That's a good question. Lather changes a little over time for all of us as time marches forward and water evaporation occurs. Lather gets thicker over time, but from my first pass to my third pass, I don't notice any significant difference because I'm not taking a super long time to shave. Very few of us would take so long that their lathers would change that much over their shaves. My re-lathering is no different than any other's. After the first pass, though, I do evacuate the brush, scraping out the lather, and briefly swirl the lather and reevaluate its sheen and consistency.

I’m a leg latherer and I often notice my second leg is a little poorer than my first, of which I do two passes per leg (sometimes three). It’s less slick or cushioned. I’m wondering if fast lathering, then sitting is equivalent to a long lathering process.

 

[RandySp]

That depends on the soap.
Many soaps lather almost instantly and less water is required.
Others they are water monsters like PAA or Phoenix & Beau. The second one is truly an animal. Drinks water as hell.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I’m a leg latherer and I often notice my second leg is a little poorer than my first, of which I do two passes per leg (sometimes three). It’s less slick or cushioned. I’m wondering if fast lathering, then sitting is equivalent to a long lathering process.

Based on my experiments with bowl lathering, building a lather and then having it sit is NOT equivalent to a long lathering process. The results are very different. For the same soap and amount of water, quicker building yields more slickness (with less cushion) than slower building. Are you building lather on your legs or in a bowl? Are you lathering both legs at the same time, shaving one leg, and then shaving the second leg before lathering for the next pass? There are a lot of variables involved, including how thick you're applying your lather. Evaporation could be an issue for you. The thinner the layer of lather, the more significant evaporation can become. The same goes with the longer lather sits on your legs.

 

[Tokyospike]

My experiments are underway. Takes time. Whiskers grow at their own pace.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

My experiments are underway. Takes time. Whiskers grow at their own pace.

That's cool, Spike. Take your time, buddy.

 

[Jaidmaster]

I could certainly save a lot of time if I knew exactly how much water I needed to add right off the bat, but I add a little at a time until it's right. Not that I mind - enjoying the scent while building the lather is part of the enjoyment, and I'm a night shaver, so usually not pressed for time.
Interesting stuff though. I might try shorter working times, adding water in larger increments, just to see how things change.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I could certainly save a lot of time if I knew exactly how much water I needed to add right off the bat, but I add a little at a time until it's right. Not that I mind - enjoying the scent while building the lather is part of the enjoyment, and I'm a night shaver, so usually not pressed for time.
Interesting stuff though. I might try shorter working times, adding water in larger increments, just to see how things change.

I've experimented with water incorporation rates while building lather. Here is the first example:

Experimental Evidence That Adding Water All at Once or Little by Little Makes Same Lather

Since then, I've experimented more and found the same result with a different soap:

Mitchell's Wool Fat (MWF): Optimization Results Help SOLVE the MYSTERY!

This experimentation helped justify simply starting with all of the water at once. Regarding the "right" amount of water at the start, that's what my optimizations yield, at least for me. I've published results for several soaps when I was using long building times, and now that I've figured out that shorter lather building is best, I've redone most of those results in a lot less time since learning that I shouldn't try and be so precise with my optimizations. I'll be publishing new results in a new ShaveWiki page coming soon.

 

[Jaidmaster]

I've experimented with water incorporation rates while building lather. Here is the first example:

Experimental Evidence That Adding Water All at Once or Little by Little Makes Same Lather

Since then, I've experimented more and found the same result with a different soap:

Mitchell's Wool Fat (MWF): Optimization Results Help SOLVE the MYSTERY!

This experimentation helped justify simply starting with all of the water at once. Regarding the "right" amount of water at the start, that's what my optimizations yield, at least for me. I've published results for several soaps when I was using long building times, and now that I've figured out that shorter lather building is best, I've redone most of those results in a lot less time since learning that I shouldn't try and be so precise with my optimizations. I'll be publishing new results in a new ShaveWiki page coming soon.

Yes, I remember seeing those! I was fascinated, but I don't think I want to bring that precision into my shaving routine. As an extremely left brained educated physicist working as an engineer, my shaving routine is to relax and unwind and I like to view it as more art than science. It balances my life just a little. Yin and Yang... It's very tempting to start measuring out soap and water, but I feel it would be detrimental to my life as a whole. I have fought these battles before, where my hobbies were also very left brained activities, and the result was not good for me.
I've actually removed my small scale from the bathroom and don't even weigh my soap usage anymore. I still need to stop tracking my shaves per blade, but I'm getting there! Baby steps...
Sorry to get off track, but wanted to share my perspective. Carry on brother!