Time/Agitation Is Also an Ingredient When Building Lather

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I think everyone is overthinking soap and bubbles a bit. I get that it's a passion but dang, 70$ soap, 4 minutes of foaming it... I get a great face lather in 30seconds with a 3$ tube of palmolive.

If it works, that's really great, but why assume what works for you would work for everybody?

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[BigJ]

Very interesting post! Thanks for the detailed analysis!

 

[Rich lathers]

Summary

• Time, or agitation, spent when building lather is just as important as the ratio of water to shaving soap/cream in the lather.
• Less time/agitation results in lather with larger cells/bubbles and less structure/cushion, such that the stable lather might not feel or look fully built, but the lather is usually denser with more soap/cream and water per shave and, more importantly, the lather provides more slickness for a better shave, even without an increase in lather density. Minimizing the time needed to build a stable lather makes the slickest lather for any given combination of water and soap/cream.
• A little experimentation with lather-building time is recommended to find what works best for each soap/cream and individual lathering method. While experimenting with measured lather-building time and measured masses of water and soap/cream, the author has found that around one minute of building lather, starting with unmixed soap/cream and water in a lathering bowl, usually works best for him.

I Used to Take Several Minutes to Build Lather

As documented on August 27, 2017 (B&B URL 1), I used to build lather "until equilibrium [was] reached". This involved swirling and back-and-forth motions for several minutes until it seemed that the lather was insignificantly changing or not changing at all. I employed this method with my subsequent efforts in optimizing lathers for different soaps. For example, in my most recent optimization thread, the one for L'Occitane Cade shaving soap (B&B URL 2), I noted that "building lather took a normal amount of time". Behind the scenes, I had recorded an average lather-building time of 260 seconds (4.3 minutes) for the soap. Unpublished times ranged from 180 seconds (3.0 minutes) to 410 seconds (6.8 minutes) among the eight soaps that I analyzed.

Based on what I had read and watched on the Internet since I began traditionally shaving in the middle of 2016, I thought that taking a few minutes or several minutes to build lather until the volume had really grown and the lather was hardly changing appearance was the right thing to do. However, the more that I optimized lather, finding the optimum masses of soap and water for each soap's lather, the more that I found that I was favoring denser lathers with more soap and water. Less volume, more density, seemed to be best. Searching for soaps and creams that yield denser, richer lather seemed to be the only option. Then, on February 19, 2018, while in the middle of reevaluating a soap that I had previously analyzed, it hit me that less lather-building time would result in denser lather. The next day, I shaved with the same ratio of water to soap from the day before, but used more soap and water and significantly reduced the amount of lather-building time. The density of the lather was somewhat greater, but the difference in slickness was significant and undeniable, greater than anything that I had previously experienced with the soap over a wide range of water-to-soap ratios tested during the optimization process that involved large lather-building times.

My longstanding belief that lather should be built until it has a refined cell structure had been effectively defeated. All it took was simple testing to show that less lather-building time can produce better lather, despite its larger cells/bubbles. Even when the lather has less structure and might seem less dense and not built enough, it can actually be denser with more soap and water, despite the larger cells/bubbles, and can produce more slickness for a better shave.

Now, I Take Only About One Minute and Build Better Lather

At first, I thought that the increased density with more soap and water was causing more slickness, but after further testing with three more shaving soaps and one shaving cream, I've come to the conclusion that more soap and water only partially contribute to the increase in slickness. The slickness increase is primarily due to the fundamental change in character of the lather when shifting from more lather-building time to less lather-building time. I don't know the chemistry and mechanics of it all, but the results are clear.

Results come from new optimizations with three variables: soap/cream mass, water mass, and time. For each lather, soap/cream and moderately hard water masses were measured in a bowl with a 0.01 g resolution scale to create the desired water-to-soap/cream ratio and total mass. The desired amount of time, checking with a timer, was then used to build the lather with my initially dry synthetic brush. The lather was then evaluated during a three-pass shave and notes were recorded in my electronic spreadsheet, including notes on the post-shave.

About a week or more of daily shaves were conducted with each soap and cream to find the approximate optimal combination of soap/cream mass, water mass, and lather-building time for each soap and cream. In each case, it only took about one minute to build the optimal lather, a little quicker than a minute for the shaving cream, given how rapidly the cream dissolved at the start. Lather-building time was found to be relatively easy to optimize, since making a stable lather and building no further was found to be best. One minute of building lather resulted in slightly denser lather compared to two minutes or three minutes of building lather in all but one of the cases. Optimizations of total lather mass really helped confirm the visual observations on lather density. In general, the optimal combination of soap/cream and water masses, built with the optimal amount of time of around one minute, will produce just enough lather needed for my three-pass shave, but increasing the lather-building time by one minute or two minutes will usually produce stiffer lather with more volume, resulting in leftover lather.

The differences in lather density are noticeable, but they are minor compared to the differences in lather performance with increasing lather-building time. No matter the water-to-soap/cream ratio, less time produced slicker lather with less cushion and usually more density, leading to more soap/cream and water in applied lather. Optimizing time, in a rough sense to the nearest half minute, was found to be relatively easy and roughly independent of optimizing water-to-soap/cream ratio, which is the hardest part of optimizing lather. After much lather optimization, I found that I could basically optimize the water-to-soap/cream ratio with the same minimum lather-building time, and then, compare the result with a lather having been built with more time. The lather built over more time was always worse with less slickness. One might want to justify this difference by noting that more water is evaporated with more lather-building time, which drops the water-to-soap/cream ratio even further from its initial value and probably decreases slickness in the process. That is not a bad thought. However, based on my experimentation, water evaporation can only be considered significant with very large lather-building times, on the order of several minutes or more.

Has Someone Else Written about the Effects of Building Time on Lather Quality?

I searched B&B and the Internet for similar material on this issue, but my search came up empty. That certainly doesn't mean that I'm the first to have written about this issue. I'm the first as far as I could tell, but if you have evidence of someone having written about this, please share it here. I was only able to find B&B members sharing how much time they spend building lather (B&B URL 3, B&B URL 4, B&B URL 5). On average, it sounds like people spend about one minute to two minutes building lather. This is good, based on my experimentation with four shaving soaps and one shaving cream, as mentioned above.

One minute of building lather has usually worked best for me to make slicker lather that is stable but not overly mixed and refined. Two minutes makes lather that has more cushion, but is less slick. More time continues the trend, making worse lather due to further deterioration of slickness. The amount of time that one takes depends on how fast one whips lather, of course, and how one is making lather, including factors such as the particular shaving brush and whether the lather is built on the face or in a bowl. However quickly one makes lather, I recommend trying to minimize the amount of time/agitation involved in building lather to maximize slickness and yield better shaves. Opinions of certain soaps and creams may change in the process. Also, one might find himself getting used to lather with very little cushion. This has happened to me, even though I'm still seeking lather with great slickness, cushion, and post-shave. It's just that if I have to choose between slickness and cushion, I choose slickness for better shaves.

This has been my experience as well. I honestly think that this is one factor in which face lathering works best for me. Face lathering takes less time. This means more slickness. Also when face lathering one can feel how slick the lather is and stop when the perfact lather is reached.

 

[Raissermesser]

To be honest, I just build lather until it looks right, and then use. It doesn't take long. I prefer warm lather, so I usually pour hot tap water in the mug and let the brush soak, whether it's boar or not (it's only really a factor on boar, but in this case it also warms the brush).

Occasionally, like this morning, I build a lather like my father taught me. He used a nylon brush, and my favorite is a synthetic. The only moisture both holds is from surface tension between the bristles. I wet the brush in hot water, gave it a shake to remove the excess (how much to remove is something I can't describe, but too much will make a thick lather and too little a soupy one). I make the lather in the mug, then apply to my wet face. The result is a cold, but quick lather. Have never timed it, but I think it takes less than a minute.

 

[Rich lathers]

To be honest, I just build lather until it looks right, and then use. It doesn't take long. I prefer warm lather, so I usually pour hot tap water in the mug and let the brush soak, whether it's boar or not (it's only really a factor on boar, but in this case it also warms the brush).

Occasionally, like this morning, I build a lather like my father taught me. He used a nylon brush, and my favorite is a synthetic. The only moisture both holds is from surface tension between the bristles. I wet the brush in hot water, gave it a shake to remove the excess (how much to remove is something I can't describe, but too much will make a thick lather and too little a soupy one). I make the lather in the mug, then apply to my wet face. The result is a cold, but quick lather. Have never timed it, but I think it takes less than a minute.

They way your father taught you is the same way i do it. This method does take less than a minute and produces the best lather for me. I find it interesting that i developed the technique through trial and error and it turns out to be the way your father did it. Thans for sharing.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Great informational write up.

It does seem to take a bit longer when face lathering (my normal style) but this all sounds right based on my subjective experience otherwise, which is mostly by intuition. That is to say that my best lathers are usually made quickly and with little fuss. Usually the only time this falls apart is if I haven’t properly loaded my soap.

Thanks for the feedback. It's great to see that others have found quicker lathers working better, too.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Sometimes, when I am running late for work, I skip the brush & use a wet hand to lather for a few seconds after my shower.
Over the years, I have slowly come to realize that my slickest lathers have been made using the above method.
I've also switched to using my soaps like soap sticks, directly on a wet face. Much better results than forming lather on the puck & then continuing on to face.

Unfortunately, knowing something is often just not enough. I have not been able to give up my addiction to brushes, although for the last few years I've switched to much smaller brushes.
I have, however, reduced my face lathering time to less than a minute.
So why did I just buy three new Omegas last week?

Wow, a few seconds is quick! It's good that you've been able to compromise your love of brushes and reduce your face lathering time down to less than a minute. Less time works better. Those new Omegas of yours are just going to have to get used to it.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Yes. Give me a couple of days here. But I will be your lab monkey.

Great! Thanks, Spike.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I’m very curious too, so I’ll try to be a lab monkey as well. Also a few days will be needed. Likely going to be using the swirl method to measure how much I’m loading. Not as accurate, but I’m not sure how else to do it with my soaps. I’ll first have to dial in the exact water for the exact amount of soap I’ll be using. I do it by appearance right now so I don’t keep track.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cool! Thanks, Joel! As long as you are consistent as best as you can tell, that will be great. The swirl method of measuring the amount of soap should work just fine. You should be able to easily measure time with a timer or a clock, so at least time could be measured.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Simply agreeing with the premise, "Time/Agitation Is Also an Ingredient When Building Lather"

Damaged one of my typing fingers yesterday, so not "saying" much.


AA

Mike, thanks for the clarification, including about your healing finger.

 

[Ad Astra]

Grant; I wonder if brush pressure is a factor/thing? I've notice I grind lather mixtures up at first, then reduce to a light touch once the air/soap/water mix gets finer and finer bubbles .... till it's just a very light brush swirl.


AA

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I used to bowl lather, but it's been a long time, and talking about it would be relying too much on memory.

View attachment 882470

My bottom line is performance which means slickness which relies on hydration.

There is no way to quickly build on my skin the properly hydrated, very well hydrated, creamy later I rely on. If there were I still wouldn't do it because I want to work the lather and the hydration into and around my whiskers.

Besides, I enjoy working the brush on my face and neck. It feels good. It's fun. It's satisfying.

However, the main reason is because I've found over time that it works well for me. I've experimented with all sorts of ways. Sometimes deliberately experimented, but oftentimes just by being hurried or such. The method I described is the best for me of the ways I've tried.

Grant, I know you're being a scientist as you look at this. I'm only trying to figure out how I can get a good shave. My N is one. Finding out what works for me may help somebody else, but maybe it won't. I try to describe accurately what I do so anybody interested can duplicate it.

It seems to me more water is what makes my lather slicker.

Anything which works for me may only be right for me, and it may be wrong for everybody else. I think it a great idea for everybody to experiment to find what works best for themselves. What works for a person now might now be their best solution or a permanent solution, and is certainly not likely to be a universal solution.

The big deal for me is hydration which takes time.

Happy shaves,

Jim

I get what you're saying, Jim, and I agree that what works best for one person might not work best for another. Your face lathering method takes time to get the hydration level right for you. I get that. If I face lathered, I might do the same, taking longer to work in the water. I don't know if you agree or disagree with what I'm about to say, but based on my experience with measured lathers and optimizing water-to-soap ratios, each soap/cream has its optimum level of hydration. More water works up to a point to increase slickness until the lather gets too hydrated and stick-slip creeps in or the slickness decreases overall as the lather has become too watered down. As you've seen, I'm sure, I've hit on this many times with my threads on optimizing lathers. Those results are no obsolete since proving to myself that less lather-building time makes slicker lather. I wasn't optimizing time, and now I'm at least doing a rough job of it instead of presuming that a lot of time is best. It's like there is a tradeoff between slickness and cushion. Less time makes slicker lather, but you lose cushion. I think that this applies to all of our lather-building methods, even yours, buddy. If you can't reduce the amount of agitation, then you're already there.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

To be honest, I just build lather until it looks right, and then use. It doesn't take long. I prefer warm lather, so I usually pour hot tap water in the mug and let the brush soak, whether it's boar or not (it's only really a factor on boar, but in this case it also warms the brush).

Occasionally, like this morning, I build a lather like my father taught me. He used a nylon brush, and my favorite is a synthetic. The only moisture both holds is from surface tension between the bristles. I wet the brush in hot water, gave it a shake to remove the excess (how much to remove is something I can't describe, but too much will make a thick lather and too little a soupy one). I make the lather in the mug, then apply to my wet face. The result is a cold, but quick lather. Have never timed it, but I think it takes less than a minute.

Quick lather works! Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Esox]

Assuming I'm using the same soap and load times for all lathers, its been my experience thus far that;

Thicker lathers offer more cushion than thinner lathers.

Thinner lathers offer more slickness than thicker lathers.

Thicker lathers have less water:soap than thinner lathers.

Thinner lathers have more water:soap.

One thing I have noticed lately is, with my Silvertip badger, because it has finer hairs, the load and lather build time is increased, but at the same time, the finer hairs give a smoother lather.

More water works up to a point to increase slickness until the lather gets too hydrated and stick-slip creeps in or the slickness decreases overall as the lather has become too watered down.

Thats how I define a 'broken' lather. When the slickness drops to the point of the razor dragging and/or skipping. It depends on the soap/cream in question, they're not all the same in that regard.

I can break a Stirling lather easily and have many times. Not once have I broken a lather with Tabac or Captain's Choice creams, or for that matter, Nivea cream.

I've broken Proraso lathers but they arent nearly as easily done as Stirling. Stirling soaps can be incredibly slick, but one extra drop of water from my finger and it's back to the tub for more soap. I've never had to do that with Captain's Choice creams and I dont load much. A little goes a long way, much the same as Tabac.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Grant; I wonder if brush pressure is a factor/thing? I've notice I grind lather mixtures up at first, then reduce to a light touch once the air/soap/water mix gets finer and finer bubbles .... till it's just a very light brush swirl.


AA

I think that's pretty normal, using more pressure earlier on to incorporate the soap and then using a light touch with mostly swirling later on as the lather develops finer cells/bubbles. If lighter pressure were used the whole time, I think that it would just take longer to build the lather because it would take longer to agitate the soap and incorporate it with the water.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Assuming I'm using the same soap and load times for all lathers, its been my experience thus far that;

Thicker lathers offer more cushion than thinner lathers.

Thinner lathers offer more slickness than thicker lathers.

Thicker lathers have less water:soap than thinner lathers.

Thinner lathers have more water:soap.

One thing I have noticed lately is, with my Silvertip badger, because it has finer hairs, the load and lather build time is increased, but at the same time, the finer hairs give a smoother lather.




Thats how I define a 'broken' lather. When the slickness drops to the point of the razor dragging and/or skipping. It depends on the soap/cream in question, they're not all the same in that regard.

I can break a Stirling lather easily and have many times. Not once have I broken a lather with Tabac or Captain's Choice creams, or for that matter, Nivea cream.

I've broken Proraso lathers but they arent nearly as easily done as Stirling. Stirling soaps can be incredibly slick, but one extra drop of water from my finger and it's back to the tub for more soap. I've never had to do that with Captain's Choice creams and I dont load much. A little goes a long way, much the same as Tabac.

Thanks, Mike, for the feedback. I generally agree with everything that you wrote, except that you have more experience with soaps and brushes, etc., and can draw more conclusions. I've never heard about finer hairs making smoother lather. That's very interesting.

 

[Jill Snoddon]

Very interesting, @ShavingByTheNumbers, and I always enjoy reading your analysis. These are fascinating observations.

A couple of questions about your method - what type of brush are you using and how hard do you press down on your brush while building the lather? Has anything concerning your method changed when you went from several minutes down to one minute?

My remark is I am not clear as to whether the brush was loaded first and then lathered in the bowl, or if soap was pressed into the bowl for the lathering.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

My remark is I am not clear as to whether the brush was loaded first and then lathered in the bowl, or if soap was pressed into the bowl for the lathering.

The desired mass of soap is first measured in the lathering bowl. Then, the desired mass of water is measured in the lathering bowl. This yields the target water-to-soap ratio and total mass (for three passes). Using an initially dry synthetic brush, the lather is then built with the desired amount of time, checking against a running timer that is started right before lather building. I run the timer forward instead of counting down in case I have to call an audible and use more time. It happens on occasion, and when it does, I correct my electronic record. After the shave, I record notes about the lather, usually noting whether the lather was better or worse than the previous day's lather in the process of figuring out the optimum lather for the given soap or cream.

 

[Dovo1695]

Sometimes, when I am running late for work, I skip the brush & use a wet hand to lather for a few seconds after my shower.
Over the years, I have slowly come to realize that my slickest lathers have been made using the above method.
I've also switched to using my soaps like soap sticks, directly on a wet face. Much better results than forming lather on the puck & then continuing on to face.

+1

I have never in 15 years of wet shaving ever achieved a lather as good with a brush as I can do with hand lathering. I've tried many brushes, from my $10 RR Big Bruce to my $150 silvertip Shave-Mac. This has held true for every soap I own all the way from my Arko to my Grooming Dept soaps. It's not for lack of trying either. Honestly, I keep trying with brushes hoping that one magical day I'll discover some secret that's been eluding me for years. I love absolutely everything about using a brush when shaving, except the lather is always disappointing.

Hand lathering is simplicity itself. The only thing trick is to keep things very, very wet. If soap hasn't dripped in a line of suds down to my elbow by the end of a shave, I know I didn't use enough water. As long as I carefully monitor the moisture level throughout the shave by adding a few drops of water to my palm periodically, no brush lather has ever come close. YMMV though.

Having said all that, I've yet to try the "expedited" lathering method described above. I have my fingers crossed that it will finally make an honest brush latherer out of me. Thanks for the great write-up Grant!

 

[Johnnynroy]

Cool! Thanks, Joel! As long as you are consistent as best as you can tell, that will be great. The swirl method of measuring the amount of soap should work just fine. You should be able to easily measure time with a timer or a clock, so at least time could be measured.

@ShavingByTheNumbers and @Tokyospike

I hate to back out so quickly, but I wrote that when I was at work today. Once I arrived home, SWMBO reminded me that we have to be packed up as much as possible one week from today for our cross state move. I will only be doing a Fixed from that day for about a month, and I have to get her approval on the scent I’m planning on using for that time period. All of that to say: I unfortunately won’t have the time in the next week to actually accomplish this level of testing.

I’m spending this evening packing up all of clothes except those needed for the next week.

I hate moving.

Hope Spike’s experiment goes well and gives you some more data!