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Time/Agitation Is Also an Ingredient When Building Lather

Summary

  • Time, or agitation, spent when building lather is just as important as the ratio of water to shaving soap/cream in the lather.
  • Less time/agitation results in lather with larger cells/bubbles and less structure/cushion, such that the stable lather might not feel or look fully built, but the lather is usually denser with more soap/cream and water per shave and, more importantly, the lather provides more slickness for a better shave, even without an increase in lather density. Minimizing the time needed to build a stable lather makes the slickest lather for any given combination of water and soap/cream.
  • A little experimentation with lather-building time is recommended to find what works best for each soap/cream and individual lathering method. While experimenting with measured lather-building time and measured masses of water and soap/cream, the author has found that around one minute of building lather, starting with unmixed soap/cream and water in a lathering bowl, usually works best for him.

I Used to Take Several Minutes to Build Lather


As documented on August 27, 2017 (B&B URL 1), I used to build lather "until equilibrium [was] reached". This involved swirling and back-and-forth motions for several minutes until it seemed that the lather was insignificantly changing or not changing at all. I employed this method with my subsequent efforts in optimizing lathers for different soaps. For example, in my most recent optimization thread, the one for L'Occitane Cade shaving soap (B&B URL 2), I noted that "building lather took a normal amount of time". Behind the scenes, I had recorded an average lather-building time of 260 seconds (4.3 minutes) for the soap. Unpublished times ranged from 180 seconds (3.0 minutes) to 410 seconds (6.8 minutes) among the eight soaps that I analyzed.

Based on what I had read and watched on the Internet since I began traditionally shaving in the middle of 2016, I thought that taking a few minutes or several minutes to build lather until the volume had really grown and the lather was hardly changing appearance was the right thing to do. However, the more that I optimized lather, finding the optimum masses of soap and water for each soap's lather, the more that I found that I was favoring denser lathers with more soap and water. Less volume, more density, seemed to be best. Searching for soaps and creams that yield denser, richer lather seemed to be the only option. Then, on February 19, 2018, while in the middle of reevaluating a soap that I had previously analyzed, it hit me that less lather-building time would result in denser lather. The next day, I shaved with the same ratio of water to soap from the day before, but used more soap and water and significantly reduced the amount of lather-building time. The density of the lather was somewhat greater, but the difference in slickness was significant and undeniable, greater than anything that I had previously experienced with the soap over a wide range of water-to-soap ratios tested during the optimization process that involved large lather-building times.

My longstanding belief that lather should be built until it has a refined cell structure had been effectively defeated. All it took was simple testing to show that less lather-building time can produce better lather, despite its larger cells/bubbles. Even when the lather has less structure and might seem less dense and not built enough, it can actually be denser with more soap and water, despite the larger cells/bubbles, and can produce more slickness for a better shave.

Now, I Take Only About One Minute and Build Better Lather


At first, I thought that the increased density with more soap and water was causing more slickness, but after further testing with three more shaving soaps and one shaving cream, I've come to the conclusion that more soap and water only partially contribute to the increase in slickness. The slickness increase is primarily due to the fundamental change in character of the lather when shifting from more lather-building time to less lather-building time. I don't know the chemistry and mechanics of it all, but the results are clear.

Results come from new optimizations with three variables: soap/cream mass, water mass, and time. For each lather, soap/cream and moderately hard water masses were measured in a bowl with a 0.01 g resolution scale to create the desired water-to-soap/cream ratio and total mass. The desired amount of time, checking with a timer, was then used to build the lather with my initially dry synthetic brush. The lather was then evaluated during a three-pass shave and notes were recorded in my electronic spreadsheet, including notes on the post-shave.

About a week or more of daily shaves were conducted with each soap and cream to find the approximate optimal combination of soap/cream mass, water mass, and lather-building time for each soap and cream. In each case, it only took about one minute to build the optimal lather, a little quicker than a minute for the shaving cream, given how rapidly the cream dissolved at the start. Lather-building time was found to be relatively easy to optimize, since making a stable lather and building no further was found to be best. One minute of building lather resulted in slightly denser lather compared to two minutes or three minutes of building lather in all but one of the cases. Optimizations of total lather mass really helped confirm the visual observations on lather density. In general, the optimal combination of soap/cream and water masses, built with the optimal amount of time of around one minute, will produce just enough lather needed for my three-pass shave, but increasing the lather-building time by one minute or two minutes will usually produce stiffer lather with more volume, resulting in leftover lather.

The differences in lather density are noticeable, but they are minor compared to the differences in lather performance with increasing lather-building time. No matter the water-to-soap/cream ratio, less time produced slicker lather with less cushion and usually more density, leading to more soap/cream and water in applied lather. Optimizing time, in a rough sense to the nearest half minute, was found to be relatively easy and roughly independent of optimizing water-to-soap/cream ratio, which is the hardest part of optimizing lather. After much lather optimization, I found that I could basically optimize the water-to-soap/cream ratio with the same minimum lather-building time, and then, compare the result with a lather having been built with more time. The lather built over more time was always worse with less slickness. One might want to justify this difference by noting that more water is evaporated with more lather-building time, which drops the water-to-soap/cream ratio even further from its initial value and probably decreases slickness in the process. That is not a bad thought. However, based on my experimentation, water evaporation can only be considered significant with very large lather-building times, on the order of several minutes or more.

Has Someone Else Written about the Effects of Building Time on Lather Quality?


I searched B&B and the Internet for similar material on this issue, but my search came up empty. That certainly doesn't mean that I'm the first to have written about this issue. I'm the first as far as I could tell, but if you have evidence of someone having written about this, please share it here. I was only able to find B&B members sharing how much time they spend building lather (B&B URL 3, B&B URL 4, B&B URL 5). On average, it sounds like people spend about one minute to two minutes building lather. This is good, based on my experimentation with four shaving soaps and one shaving cream, as mentioned above.

One minute of building lather has usually worked best for me to make slicker lather that is stable but not overly mixed and refined. Two minutes makes lather that has more cushion, but is less slick. More time continues the trend, making worse lather due to further deterioration of slickness. The amount of time that one takes depends on how fast one whips lather, of course, and how one is making lather, including factors such as the particular shaving brush and whether the lather is built on the face or in a bowl. However quickly one makes lather, I recommend trying to minimize the amount of time/agitation involved in building lather to maximize slickness and yield better shaves. Opinions of certain soaps and creams may change in the process. Also, one might find himself getting used to lather with very little cushion. This has happened to me, even though I'm still seeking lather with great slickness, cushion, and post-shave. It's just that if I have to choose between slickness and cushion, I choose slickness for better shaves.
 
Very interesting, @ShavingByTheNumbers, and I always enjoy reading your analysis. These are fascinating observations.

A couple of questions about your method - what type of brush are you using and how hard do you press down on your brush while building the lather? Has anything concerning your method changed when you went from several minutes down to one minute?
 
Very interesting, @ShavingByTheNumbers, and I always enjoy reading your analysis. These are fascinating observations.

Thanks, @Grundi. :001_smile

A couple of questions about your method - what type of brush are you using and how hard do you press down on your brush while building the lather? Has anything concerning your method changed when you went from several minutes down to one minute?

Good questions. I've been using a RazoRock BC Silvertip Plissoft for a long time now. When scraping soap up from the bottom of the lathering bowl, I press down a moderate amount, about 2 cm or less by my estimate, as I move the brush back and forth. The downward pressure drops to very little when swirling around the bowl. I switch back and forth between these two modes when building lather. I mentally note how long it takes for the soap to be fully incorporated and then I record it in my file after the shave. Nothing significant has changed in my method when switching from building over several minutes to now building lather in about one minute. The only thing that I can think of is that when building over several minutes, the building motion is much more swirling at that point, with the occasional quick evacuation of the brush, scraping it against the edge of the bowl to get out the lather.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Grant, I find that spending a lot of time - at least two of three minutes, maybe more - building lather is right for me.

What that means is I load my damp brush, apply soap to my beard using fast painting strokes from ear to ear (as long as possible). Lots of these strokes until the soap looks like spackling on my skin.

Then, I begin adding water to the spackling using the brush tips. I do this slowly, a little at a time. During this phase I use painting strokes, circular strokes, and splaying. I try to hydrate the soap very, very well. Exceedingly hydrated, very creamy, foamy lather is my goal. This lather building phase lasts at least two or three or four or five minutes. The more the better if the brush is soft and I have enough time.

I have no idea if this works for anybody except me, but it works for me. Sometimes my brush is heavily loaded. Sometimes, lightly. I use a number of soaps. MdC. SV. Wholly Kaw. Formula T. Fine L'Orange. Proraso Wood and Spice. Arko. Several others. Same method with each of the soaps I use. Same goals, too.

Foamy to me is not big bubbles. Not at all. I'm lousy at describing what lather looks like. People use terms like yogurt or whatever in describing their lather and it makes no sense to me. My lather doesn't look like food to me. It looks like shaving lather. I wouldn't want to eat it.

I mostly evaluate how my lather works by how slick it is and its residual glide. I get stellar slickness and residual glide with the soaps I try or I don't use the soap. Slick is good. Very slick is better.

I believe more time and more water is what works for my skin and beard, but that's just my skin and beard.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
Replying so I can find this tomorrow and post more on it. My initial thoughts: I usually lather for two to five minutes. I value slickness above nearly every other characteristic. I get all of my lathers to the same appearance in my Captains Choice shave bowl, then apply the lather to my face. This has consistently given me the slickest lathers, and has given me fairly consistent slickness across a wide range of soaps and creams. Some soaps are more water stable than others and can tolerate the amount of water needed to get to the appearance I like. A few do not tolerate that much water. I’ll post more on this tomorrow as it interests me greatly, and I feel like I figured out my lathering during the FFFMM so I’ve only really been doing it my way for a month and a half or so.


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Grant, I find that spending a lot of time - at least two of three minutes, maybe more - building lather is right for me.

What that means is I load my damp brush, apply soap to my beard using fast painting strokes from ear to ear (as long as possible). Lots of these strokes until the soap looks like spackling on my skin.

Then, I begin adding water to the spackling using the brush tips. I do this slowly, a little at a time. During this phase I use painting strokes, circular strokes, and splaying. I try to hydrate the soap very, very well. Exceedingly hydrated, very creamy, foamy lather is my goal. This lather building phase lasts at least two or three or four or five minutes. The more the better if the brush is soft and I have enough time.

I have no idea if this works for anybody except me, but it works for me. Sometimes my brush is heavily loaded. Sometimes, lightly. I use a number of soaps. MdC. SV. Wholly Kaw. Formula T. Fine L'Orange. Proraso Wood and Spice. Arko. Several others. Same method with each of the soaps I use. Same goals, too.

Foamy to me is not big bubbles. Not at all. I'm lousy at describing what lather looks like. People use terms like yogurt or whatever in describing their lather and it makes no sense to me. My lather doesn't look like food to me. It looks like shaving lather. I wouldn't want to eat it.

I mostly evaluate how my lather works by how slick it is and its residual glide. I get stellar slickness and residual glide with the soaps I try or I don't use the soap. Slick is good. Very slick is better.

I believe more time and more water is what works for my skin and beard, but that's just my skin and beard.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Thanks for the detailed feedback, Jim. Your method of face lathering might match up with others. I know that I'm in the minority with bowl lathering, and I considered face lathering in the OP, figuring that face lathering would probably take longer. Your method sounds good. My point was that no matter your technique, experimentation with less time/agitation could result in slicker lather. That's been my experience with all of the soaps and the one cream that I optimized. Have you tried cutting down on the time that you face lather? It might seem that the lather needs more building, but the lather might be slicker. Then again, maybe you're already at that point. I know what you're talking about with the difficulty of describing lather.
 
Replying so I can find this tomorrow and post more on it. My initial thoughts: I usually lather for two to five minutes. I value slickness above nearly every other characteristic. I get all of my lathers to the same appearance in my Captains Choice shave bowl, then apply the lather to my face. This has consistently given me the slickest lathers, and has given me fairly consistent slickness across a wide range of soaps and creams. Some soaps are more water stable than others and can tolerate the amount of water needed to get to the appearance I like. A few do not tolerate that much water. I’ll post more on this tomorrow as it interests me greatly, and I feel like I figured out my lathering during the FFFMM so I’ve only really been doing it my way for a month and a half or so.


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Hey, Joel. Before you get back here tomorrow, I just wanted to say that I used to bowl lather for about minute longer than you, on the range of three to six minutes. I did this with experimentation with different amounts of water mass and soap mass. With multiple tests, I've verified that cutting down on the lather-building time has increased slickness. Like you, I also value slickness as the primary characteristic. Would you consider cutting down on the lather-building time? Say, maybe cutting it in half and seeing how that goes? One or two shaves like that might produce a surprising result. Who knows?
 
OK. This is very interesting. I also bowl lather, and tend to use the same soap and brush every day for weeks at a time. I have recently come to the conclusion that a wetter, less built-up lather (less ‘agitation’) seems to result in greater residual slickness after the shaving pass. I haven’t been timing anything, but I doubt I am building lather for more than 90 seconds these days. So I support your conclusion, though I have to say I was thinking it was more extra water in my case than time spent building lather. I can’t quite get my mind around the physics of how that would work . . .

In any case, good stuff as always Grant!
 
OK. This is very interesting. I also bowl lather, and tend to use the same soap and brush every day for weeks at a time. I have recently come to the conclusion that a wetter, less built-up lather (less ‘agitation’) seems to result in greater residual slickness after the shaving pass. I haven’t been timing anything, but I doubt I am building lather for more than 90 seconds these days. So I support your conclusion, though I have to say I was thinking it was more extra water in my case than time spent building lather. I can’t quite get my mind around the physics of how that would work . . .

In any case, good stuff as always Grant!

Yes, it's possible that you might be using more water and it's possible that less time is also making your lather better. Is it possible for you to do two daily shaves in a row with the same lather ingredients, as best as you can be consistent, with only a difference in the amount of lather-building time?
 
Great informational write up.

It does seem to take a bit longer when face lathering (my normal style) but this all sounds right based on my subjective experience otherwise, which is mostly by intuition. That is to say that my best lathers are usually made quickly and with little fuss. Usually the only time this falls apart is if I haven’t properly loaded my soap.
 
Sometimes, when I am running late for work, I skip the brush & use a wet hand to lather for a few seconds after my shower.
Over the years, I have slowly come to realize that my slickest lathers have been made using the above method.
I've also switched to using my soaps like soap sticks, directly on a wet face. Much better results than forming lather on the puck & then continuing on to face.

Unfortunately, knowing something is often just not enough. I have not been able to give up my addiction to brushes, although for the last few years I've switched to much smaller brushes.
I have, however, reduced my face lathering time to less than a minute.
So why did I just buy three new Omegas last week?
 
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Yes. Give me a couple of days here. But I will be your lab monkey.

I’m very curious too, so I’ll try to be a lab monkey as well. Also a few days will be needed. Likely going to be using the swirl method to measure how much I’m loading. Not as accurate, but I’m not sure how else to do it with my soaps. I’ll first have to dial in the exact water for the exact amount of soap I’ll be using. I do it by appearance right now so I don’t keep track.


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Ad Astra

The Instigator
Wait a minute. Was that an answer to my question about whether someone else has written about the effects of building time on lather quality? (If so, do you have a link?)

Simply agreeing with the premise, "Time/Agitation Is Also an Ingredient When Building Lather"

Damaged one of my typing fingers yesterday, so not "saying" much.


AA
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Thanks for the detailed feedback, Jim. Your method of face lathering might match up with others. I know that I'm in the minority with bowl lathering, and I considered face lathering in the OP, figuring that face lathering would probably take longer. Your method sounds good. My point was that no matter your technique, experimentation with less time/agitation could result in slicker lather. That's been my experience with all of the soaps and the one cream that I optimized. Have you tried cutting down on the time that you face lather? It might seem that the lather needs more building, but the lather might be slicker. Then again, maybe you're already at that point. I know what you're talking about with the difficulty of describing lather.

I used to bowl lather, but it's been a long time, and talking about it would be relying too much on memory.

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My bottom line is performance which means slickness which relies on hydration.

There is no way to quickly build on my skin the properly hydrated, very well hydrated, creamy later I rely on. If there were I still wouldn't do it because I want to work the lather and the hydration into and around my whiskers.

Besides, I enjoy working the brush on my face and neck. It feels good. It's fun. It's satisfying.

However, the main reason is because I've found over time that it works well for me. I've experimented with all sorts of ways. Sometimes deliberately experimented, but oftentimes just by being hurried or such. The method I described is the best for me of the ways I've tried.

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Grant, I know you're being a scientist as you look at this. I'm only trying to figure out how I can get a good shave. My N is one. Finding out what works for me may help somebody else, but maybe it won't. I try to describe accurately what I do so anybody interested can duplicate it.

It seems to me more water is what makes my lather slicker.

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Anything which works for me may only be right for me, and it may be wrong for everybody else. I think it a great idea for everybody to experiment to find what works best for themselves. What works for a person now might now be their best solution or a permanent solution, and is certainly not likely to be a universal solution.

The big deal for me is hydration which takes time.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
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I think everyone is overthinking soap and bubbles a bit. I get that it's a passion but dang, 70$ soap, 4 minutes of foaming it... I get a great face lather in 30seconds with a 3$ tube of palmolive.
 
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