Time/Agitation Is Also an Ingredient When Building Lather

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Yes, I remember seeing those! I was fascinated, but I don't think I want to bring that precision into my shaving routine. As an extremely left brained educated physicist working as an engineer, my shaving routine is to relax and unwind and I like to view it as more art than science. It balances my life just a little. Yin and Yang... It's very tempting to start measuring out soap and water, but I feel it would be detrimental to my life as a whole. I have fought these battles before, where my hobbies were also very left brained activities, and the result was not good for me.
I've actually removed my small scale from the bathroom and don't even weigh my soap usage anymore. I still need to stop tracking my shaves per blade, but I'm getting there! Baby steps...
Sorry to get off track, but wanted to share my perspective. Carry on brother!

Hey, it's all cool, bro! I'm not advocating that anyone measure out soap or water. It's just what I do with my crazy lather optimization stuff. I like the consistency. The results are for anyone that wants to use them, not so much that they have to measure mass or volume---they could if they wanted to---but they could use the results even if just to see how I'm ranking the soaps and creams and the relative differences between the optimum lathers. Seeing that one soap's optimum uses twice as much water as another soap's optimum could be useful. The ratios of water to soap/cream actually show what is and is not a "thirsty" soap, which has never been quantitatively defined before, as far as I know. I think that the inclusion of lather-building time has benefits, too. I know what it's like to work as an engineer, so I know what you're talking about with balance and not getting crazy. Sometimes, I can't help it. It seeps in. Oh well. At least you've managed to get your scale out of your bathroom. Thanks for your perspective! We'll both carry on!

 

[Jaidmaster]

Hey, it's all cool, bro! I'm not advocating that anyone measure out soap or water. It's just what I do in with my crazy lather optimization stuff. I like the consistency. The results are for anyone that wants to use them, not so much that they have to measure mass or volume---they could if they wanted to---but they could use the results even if just to see how I'm ranking the soaps and creams and the relative differences between the optimum lathers. Seeing that one soap's optimum uses twice as much water as another soap's optimum could be useful. The ratios of water to soap/cream actually define what is and is not a "thirsty" soap, which has never been defined before, as far as I know. I think that the inclusion of lather-building time has benefits, too. I know what it's like to work as an engineer, so I know what you're talking about with balance and not getting crazy. Sometimes, I can't help it. It seeps in. Oh well. At least you've managed to get your scale out of your bathroom. Thanks for your perspective! We'll both carry on!

I hope I did not come across as condescending in any way. I appreciate your work and attention to detail, and agree that it's very useful. I'm certainly not saying you are doing it all wrong or anything like that. I just have to laugh at myself for the internal struggles with this sort of thing, and figured you could appreciate it. Tone is always difficult to convey.

 

[SoullessSingularity]

Based on my experiments with bowl lathering, building a lather and then having it sit is NOT equivalent to a long lathering process. The results are very different. For the same soap and amount of water, quicker building yields more slickness (with less cushion) than slower building. Are you building lather on your legs or in a bowl? Are you lathering both legs at the same time, shaving one leg, and then shaving the second leg before lathering for the next pass? There are a lot of variables involved, including how thick you're applying your lather. Evaporation could be an issue for you. The thinner the layer of lather, the more significant evaporation can become. The same goes with the longer lather sits on your legs.

I build lather on the skin, and lather only one leg at a time. I’ll likely return after adding more water to the next try and see what happens, but in my experience adding back in water doesn’t improve the second shave for reasons unknown. I figured it might be similar. If not, then I was mistaken.

 

[Ron R]

Well Grant if you enjoy putting a little science into shaving lather I think it is great that you enjoy that aspect of shaving and the soap MFG's have put a lot of science into making a good soap or cream that can stay on a shelf for years and when finally applied it's like magic when the lather appears normal and safe to use.
I lather under a minute usually and apply water on the face and apply bowl lather usually to face, it will start to dry quickly because of the heat generated from the face so a little water sometimes has to be added by my brush or hand.
Some soaps seem thirsty(Tabac and Arko) for more water after applied to the face and visual judgement comes into play to keep it hydrated.
I have been experimenting lately by increasing my razor rinse cycles after using new Razorock SLOC razor. I like a slurry lather more on pass 2 and clean ups because it gives great results. Open comb razors seem to trap more residual water if not shaken off and I like that and the SLOC or(DOC) has a lot more combs to trap water which seems to help reactivate lather slickness. I did a visual test of just shaking a RR mission razor and a double open comb and the DOC retains approx 4 times the water, putting the residual water as a added lubricant to better use has given me less irritation shaves.

 

[Johnnynroy]

I did not do a scientific experiment last night, Grant @ShavingByTheNumbers, but I did try to utilize a soap that I know I make a very thin lather with (this soap, in truth, baffles me). In the past, I have stated that I value slickness over all other variables in a shaving soap. My shave last night challenged that statement. This soap does not tolerate much water, breaking easily. I also cannot use the soap unless the brush is a synthetic. Natural hair brushes just hold too much water. The soap also doesn't seem to hydrate very easily, so that the amount of optimum slickness is also a drop or two away from the lather breaking. My lathers with this soap look thinner than @Vineeze's photo. I spent about 60 seconds building the lather in my bowl, then threw my hands in the hair and applied it, having to face lather some as the lather disappeared on me. I did a small of amount of face lathering between each pass to continue to generate the lather.

What I got for my trouble was very slick lather, and significant residual slickness between passes. There was 0 cushion though, and even though I was using my mildest razors (Schick J-1 with a Chick, switching to my M-3 with a Chick set to 3) I got a lot of irritation and several weepers. The slickness did not assist in shaving my trouble areas on my lower neck. One weeper was so bad that styptic and toilet paper wouldn't stop it.

So for me, I need a bit more cushion than this soap provided. Was it slick? Yes, but no slicker than my other soaps are when fully hydrated and lathered well. I never got the correct sheen (shine?) on the soap in my bowl that I like to see that tells me the soap is slick and well hydrated. It also clung to my razor, requiring me to actually rinse more often. My first pass wasn't very close, which is why I switched over to the other razor. I continued to have the same issue with closeness, and needed to rinse the razor a lot to get the lather off.

I wonder if slickness of lather is similar to rigidity: not enough is problematic and can lead to issues, but anything beyond "enough" doesn't significantly improve the shave. Enough varies from person to person, based on whisker and skin type, as well as razor/blade combinations used (even DE/SE).

I have been thinking recently that most of my "top tier" soaps are more similar in performance than they are different. This soap isn't in my top tier, unfortunately, and this shave demonstrated that. If I get that perfect shiny appearance to the lather, (if I can get a good picture of it tonight I'll post it up) and have very small bubbles, I get an excellent shave with the correct amount of slickness and cushion that I need in my shave, regardless of which of my "top tier" soaps it is. These soaps include several vegan, one "traditional" tallow, and several artisan tallow + butter/lanolin.

 

[GearNoir]

You observations @Johnnynroy make me wonder if wonder if some folks are confusing a slick lather with watery lather? Of course none of that matters if one is making too many touch up passes or applying pressure. I’m not saying any of that is what you did, though. However the fact that the lather was clinging to your razor usually indicates to me too much product vs water, that the soap was not yet broken and could have taken more water. Of course cheaper soaps can sometimes break that rule, often leaving film at least.

Good thoughts.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I hope I did not come across as condescending in any way. I appreciate your work and attention to detail, and agree that it's very useful. I'm certainly not saying you are doing it all wrong or anything like that. I just have to laugh at myself for the internal struggles with this sort of thing, and figured you could appreciate it. Tone is always difficult to convey.

You didn't come across negatively in any way whatsoever. I hope that I didn't give that impression. Thanks for checking in on that. Tone is tough to convey. You're right. I try to give the right impression with exclamation points and emojis and all, but I'm sure that I miss the mark sometimes. Thanks for your feedback and appreciation. I appreciate your work here, too.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I build lather on the skin, and lather only one leg at a time. I’ll likely return after adding more water to the next try and see what happens, but in my experience adding back in water doesn’t improve the second shave for reasons unknown. I figured it might be similar. If not, then I was mistaken.

Thanks for getting back to me. Good luck with any experimentation that you might try. Some problem can be hard to solve. My guess is that, in your case, it comes down to a difference in water-to-soap ratios between the first leg shave and the second leg shave, with the first leg shave having a better water-to-soap ratio than the second leg shave. Maybe examining where water differences come in from wet skin to wet brush, etc., etc., can help solve the mystery.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Well Grant if you enjoy putting a little science into shaving lather I think it is great that you enjoy that aspect of shaving and the soap MFG's have put a lot of science into making a good soap or cream that can stay on a shelf for years and when finally applied it's like magic when the lather appears normal and safe to use.
I lather under a minute usually and apply water on the face and apply bowl lather usually to face, it will start to dry quickly because of the heat generated from the face so a little water sometimes has to be added by my brush or hand.
Some soaps seem thirsty(Tabac and Arko) for more water after applied to the face and visual judgement comes into play to keep it hydrated.
I have been experimenting lately by increasing my razor rinse cycles after using new Razorock SLOC razor. I like a slurry lather more on pass 2 and clean ups because it gives great results. Open comb razors seem to trap more residual water if not shaken off and I like that and the SLOC or(DOC) has a lot more combs to trap water which seems to help reactivate lather slickness. I did a visual test of just shaking a RR mission razor and a double open comb and the DOC retains approx 4 times the water, putting the residual water as a added lubricant to better use has given me less irritation shaves.

Thanks, Ron. I know what you're talking about with open combs dropping the friction. I started with the PAA DOC Satin and it produced less friction. You're right about razors like that holding onto lather and water. I never measured how much, so your estimate of four times as much is surprising. That's interesting. There are definitely things that I could be doing to have slicker shaves, but I'm not doing them for the sake of experimental control. The razor matters, but I keep it the same when comparing one soap to another. During shaves, it's common to keep the razor wet after rinsing, but I shake the razor to remove excess water and really test the lather. Also, between passes, I allow extra time for excess water to go away from my face to also really test the lather. This all might sound crazy, because I'm purposely not getting as good shaves as I could be, but the shaves are good or good enough. What was crazy and frustrating was in the past when I spent weeks optimizing lather for a soap that was pissing me off. Now, I'd spent a week at most (I hope) with such a soap before moving. Life's too short for bad shaves.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I did not do a scientific experiment last night, Grant @ShavingByTheNumbers, but I did try to utilize a soap that I know I make a very thin lather with (this soap, in truth, baffles me). In the past, I have stated that I value slickness over all other variables in a shaving soap. My shave last night challenged that statement. This soap does not tolerate much water, breaking easily. I also cannot use the soap unless the brush is a synthetic. Natural hair brushes just hold too much water. The soap also doesn't seem to hydrate very easily, so that the amount of optimum slickness is also a drop or two away from the lather breaking. My lathers with this soap look thinner than @Vineeze's photo. I spent about 60 seconds building the lather in my bowl, then threw my hands in the hair and applied it, having to face lather some as the lather disappeared on me. I did a small of amount of face lathering between each pass to continue to generate the lather.

What I got for my trouble was very slick lather, and significant residual slickness between passes. There was 0 cushion though, and even though I was using my mildest razors (Schick J-1 with a Chick, switching to my M-3 with a Chick set to 3) I got a lot of irritation and several weepers. The slickness did not assist in shaving my trouble areas on my lower neck. One weeper was so bad that styptic and toilet paper wouldn't stop it.

So for me, I need a bit more cushion than this soap provided. Was it slick? Yes, but no slicker than my other soaps are when fully hydrated and lathered well. I never got the correct sheen (shine?) on the soap in my bowl that I like to see that tells me the soap is slick and well hydrated. It also clung to my razor, requiring me to actually rinse more often. My first pass wasn't very close, which is why I switched over to the other razor. I continued to have the same issue with closeness, and needed to rinse the razor a lot to get the lather off.

I wonder if slickness of lather is similar to rigidity: not enough is problematic and can lead to issues, but anything beyond "enough" doesn't significantly improve the shave. Enough varies from person to person, based on whisker and skin type, as well as razor/blade combinations used (even DE/SE).

I have been thinking recently that most of my "top tier" soaps are more similar in performance than they are different. This soap isn't in my top tier, unfortunately, and this shave demonstrated that. If I get that perfect shiny appearance to the lather, (if I can get a good picture of it tonight I'll post it up) and have very small bubbles, I get an excellent shave with the correct amount of slickness and cushion that I need in my shave, regardless of which of my "top tier" soaps it is. These soaps include several vegan, one "traditional" tallow, and several artisan tallow + butter/lanolin.

Joel, you made a lot of good points here. Great write-up. Thanks. There was that tradeoff between slickness and cushion, but because the slickness isn't really any better than other soaps that you have that produce cushion, too, it makes sense that your baffling soap might not be used again for a long time. What you said about slickness being like rigidity makes perfect sense. It's probably the way it is. Once a certain level of slickness is reached, that level being different from person to person, then one is happy and other factors, like cushion, become more pressing.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

You observations @Johnnynroy make me wonder if wonder if some folks are confusing a slick lather with watery lather? Of course none of that matters if one is making too many touch up passes or applying pressure. I’m not saying any of that is what you did, though. However the fact that the lather was clinging to your razor usually indicates to me too much product vs water, that the soap was not yet broken and could have taken more water. Of course cheaper soaps can sometimes break that rule, often leaving film at least.

Good thoughts.

I think that too many people conflate water and slickness. You have to add water to make lather, but I've found that slickness generally peaks at some water-to-soap ratio, such that more water yields stick-slip and/or overall friction from a lather that is too thin. Some guys are able to get a good shave with water alone, but others can't do it. That's why we use shaving soap or some other lubricant in the first place.

 

[Johnnynroy]

You observations @Johnnynroy make me wonder if wonder if some folks are confusing a slick lather with watery lather? Of course none of that matters if one is making too many touch up passes or applying pressure. I’m not saying any of that is what you did, though. However the fact that the lather was clinging to your razor usually indicates to me too much product vs water, that the soap was not yet broken and could have taken more water. Of course cheaper soaps can sometimes break that rule, often leaving film at least.

Good thoughts.

I appreciate the input, Chris. I equate slick lather with easily slicing through whiskers with as little sensation of drag as possible. Not scientific at all, I know. I find watery lathers to rarely provide a good shave, on any front. I always struggle with this soap, and am typically very ginger with the addition of water. I look for that certain appearance with my soaps to know when I've hydrated it enough. This is the one soap that never takes on that appearance as I add water, and I end up stopping slightly before the lather breaks (I've gotten better at figuring out where that is, but I do overshoot sometimes). For some reason, this lather clings to my razor more than other soaps (Proraso can give it a run for its money). I may not have gotten it hydrated enough, but my suspicion is that I nearly broke it like normal.

No one asked, but I'm certain many were thinking it: I keep this soap around because the scent is amazing. Is it worth the poor performance? Probably not. Next time, I will likely try adding a cream to it to try to make a better lather.

 

[Esox]

For some reason, this lather clings to my razor more than other soaps (Proraso can give it a run for its money). I may not have gotten it hydrated enough, but my suspicion is that I nearly broke it like normal.

However the fact that the lather was clinging to your razor usually indicates to me too much product vs water, that the soap was not yet broken and could have taken more water.

I'm with Chris on this Joel.

If the lather is clinging to the razor and loading it up, in my experience it's too thick (dry).

 

[Ron R]

I did a face lather this morning using Derby stick rubbed on a wet face and used a stopwatch. It took me almost EXACTLY 1 minute of face lathering and resulted in a fine shave this morning.

So I agree with the theory. And its really great news to me because I am trying to cut down the time of my shaves since I am a daily shaver. I've been saying all along that a thin, watery lather provides the best protection as opposed to the YouTube celebrities and their huge Arko-Man beards.

And I think most men that do a FFFM for a month will discover the same.

In fact here is my lather on pass 3, alot of men will be scared to death to shave with that but it works just fine:

http://image.ibb.co/hZci97/pass3.jpg

EDIT: Hmmm, thats weird I dont know why the picture wont show up. Had to post the link instead

To me that is a good lather for #2 & #3 pass or a clean up because its more a lather slurry that lubricates the blade like you suggest that gives good results(I like a moist lather also). 1st pass you might want a little more lather volume to suspend the whiskers for the blade to snip easier. The 1st pass is usually thicker anyways because the whiskers are trapping more lather and suspending the whiskers off the skin it seems. Good example.

 

[Dovo1695]

I was thinking about time as a variable in lather development and shaving while on a conference call this afternoon with a client, and I came to two important conclusions:

1. The time variable is extremely important in lather development/design, but in way not yet discussed
2. I haven't a clue what my clients actual problem is, preoccupied as I was by the time value of lather, but I have resolved that it will be very expensive to fix and that it will almost certainly be a lengthy engagement

Let us focus on point one for the moment although the two points share in common more than one might think. I don't doubt in the least that you gentlemen are on to something with your experiments with shorter lathering times. In an age of imgur and pinterest, it's not uncommon to see photos of "idealized" lather that more closely resembles meringue than something I would care to shave with. Nor is it hard to imagine that many of us, particularly newbies, subconsciously attempt to recreate this splendid looking foam through lengthy and occasionally furious gyrations of the brush. When our attempts to recreate beautiful foam are frustrated, we double down on our efforts and increase the duration of our lather development. This is not entirely unlike my own solution when I realized I had no idea what my client even wanted after conference call: I decided the solution was to increase time and effort irrespective of the actual problem. It's human nature to increase effort to solve a problem when the underlying cause is unknown. Just a simple crackpot theory I thought I share before launching into an even more poorly thought out and implausible one...

There is another sense in which time becomes a factor in lather design, and that is the duration of the shave itself. In my own case, I shave very quickly. I seldom spend more than 3 minutes for a 3 pass BBS shave. Although I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, I'm a hand latherer, and that I favor very thin lather indeed. I typically do not re-lather in between passes; soap is applied once and is sufficient for all 3 passes. I know however, that I am an in a very small minority with respect to the duration of my shaves. I think most gentlemen spend between 10-15 minutes. Some take a princely 20-30 minutes. My lather could not possibly hold up for 30 minutes or even 15 minutes or even 10. Even for a 3 minute shave, I need to add a few drops of water to my palm every 30-40 seconds to maintain the level of slickness required. Now that I've wasted literally minutes of your time, without adding anything useful to the discussion, allow me to posit the following theory:

The Specific Gravity of Lather as a Design Parameter in the Efficacy of Lather as Function of Shave Duration:

Hydration is the key variable in soap "slickness". The longer your shave takes, the lower the specific gravity of the optimal lather will be. Quick shavers can get away with thin, watery lather. Shavers who favor longer shaves will need foam with a great deal of volume to ward of evaporation of water at the level of the skin.

Now this may be patently obvious to those of you who actually know what you're talking about, or it may be wrong entirely, but for me it was an epiphany. For my client, it will merely be very expensive. Having said so little in so many words, I shall retire for evening but I shall pose the question that has knawed at me all afternoon: does my theory hold water?

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I was thinking about time as a variable in lather development and shaving while on a conference call this afternoon with a client, and I came to two important conclusions:

1. The time variable is extremely important in lather development/design, but in way not yet discussed
2. I haven't a clue what my clients actual problem is, preoccupied as I was by the time value of lather, but I have resolved that it will be very expensive to fix and that it will almost certainly be a lengthy engagement

Let us focus on point one for the moment although the two points share in common more than one might think. I don't doubt in the least that you gentlemen are on to something with your experiments with shorter lathering times. In an age of imgur and pinterest, it's not uncommon to see photos of "idealized" lather that more closely resembles meringue than something I would care to shave with. Nor is it hard to imagine that many of us, particularly newbies, subconsciously attempt to recreate this splendid looking foam through lengthy and occasionally furious gyrations of the brush. When our attempts to recreate beautiful foam are frustrated, we double down on our efforts and increase the duration of our lather development. This is not entirely unlike my own solution when I realized I had no idea what my client even wanted after conference call: I decided the solution was to increase time and effort irrespective of the actual problem. It's human nature to increase effort to solve a problem when the underlying cause is unknown. Just a simple crackpot theory I thought I share before launching into an even more poorly thought out and implausible one...

There is another sense in which time becomes a factor in lather design, and that is the duration of the shave itself. In my own case, I shave very quickly. I seldom spend more than 3 minutes for a 3 pass BBS shave. Although I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, I'm a hand latherer, and that I favor very thin lather indeed. I typically do not re-lather in between passes; soap is applied once and is sufficient for all 3 passes. I know however, that I am an in a very small minority with respect to the duration of my shaves. I think most gentlemen spend between 10-15 minutes. Some take a princely 20-30 minutes. My lather could not possibly hold up for 30 minutes or even 15 minutes or even 10. Even for a 3 minute shave, I need to add a few drops of water to my palm every 30-40 seconds to maintain the level of slickness required. Now that I've wasted literally minutes of your time, without adding anything useful to the discussion, allow me to posit the following theory:

The Specific Gravity of Lather as a Design Parameter in the Efficacy of Lather as Function of Shave Duration:

Hydration is the key variable in soap "slickness". The longer your shave takes, the lower the specific gravity of the optimal lather will be. Quick shavers can get away with thin, watery lather. Shavers who favor longer shaves will need foam with a great deal of volume to ward of evaporation of water at the level of the skin.

Now this may be patently obvious to those of you who actually know what you're talking about, or it may be wrong entirely, but for me it was an epiphany. For my client, it will merely be very expensive. Having said so little in so many words, I shall retire for evening but I shall pose the question that has knawed at me all afternoon: does my theory hold water?

Thanks, Nick, for your detailed thoughts on this. I think that there is some truth to what you're suggesting, but there is an important caveat.

I'm in the "princely" zone of longer shaves, to borrow your language, and as detailed in the OP, I've found that quicker building of lather makes slicker lather. The water-to-soap ratio affects lather slickness, but so does the time taken to build the lather. Minimizing the building time makes slicker lather and generally denser lather, which is also good. I was careful in the OP, though, to refer to "stable lather". All of my experimentation involves building stable lather, lather that lasts the whole shave. I haven't had any stability problems in this experimentation, but I've made sure to build lathers just enough, at least, to the point that they actually can be called "lather". If I just mixed a lot of water with some soap for, say, 10 seconds and had a watery mess, I wouldn't call it much of a "lather", but someone else might. You could shave with it, but as you were talking about, the watery, unstable "lather" would evaporate relatively quickly on the face compared to stable lather. The mixture might be considered slicker than lather that I'm making, at least for some shavers. No matter how the slickness would be considered, the lather would favor those that shave quickly, which gets to your line of thinking.

So, yes, your theory holds water, I think, but it depends on the person and how he/she deals with wetter, less stable, or unstable lather. Regardless of what works best for me, you, or others, my point in the OP is sound, that lathering time matters a lot and we should take it into consideration when building lather, experimenting a little to find out what works best for each of us and for each soap and cream that we use. In general, less time/agitation makes slicker lather which, of course, usually has less volume, more density, greater specific gravity, etc. That holds true, by my experience, and I hope that others can provide more circumstantial evidence of that.

 

[Try em all]

Wow, a few seconds is quick! It's good that you've been able to compromise your love of brushes and reduce your face lathering time down to less than a minute. Less time works better. Those new Omegas of yours are just going to have to get used to it.

I was in a hurry again today morning, so I hand lathered.
I timed it- from the time I put a wet hand to my face (with a dollop of cream on it) to the time I put it down to wash it, was almost exactly 12 seconds.

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the less air incorporated in the lather, the better. I'm not sure if Dovo1695's speculation about density is precisely the same or not. Less air does imply greater density, but a film of water has less air & is denser than lather, but does not shave as well.

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[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the less air incorporated in the lather, the better. I'm not sure if Dovo1695's speculation about density is precisely the same or not. Less air does imply greater density, but a film of water has less air & is denser than lather, but does not shave as well.

Less air for denser lather is what initially drove my experimentation with less lather-building time. I still think that denser lather for more soap and water is better than less dense lather, and you generally get denser lather with less lathering time, but the real key to cutting down lather-building time is the significant increase in slickness that is totally separate from overall density. I've had identical or nearly identical densities with lathers that were built with less and more time, and in each case with different soaps, the slickness difference was significant while the lather density difference was not significant. I'm still seeking denser lather, but not without good slickness. Water alone doesn't cut it for me, either.

There was an hypothesis that I didn't include in the OP. I'll have to research this idea. It might be on target, but then again, it might be completely wrong: With increasing lather-building time, lather cells/bubbles get finer and finer as the lather builds and gains structure. The overall density usually decreases as the overall lather volume increases with more and more cells/bubbles being created, but with smaller size. More and more smaller cells/bubbles results in more interfacial tension (similar to surface tension) within the lather between the cells/bubbles and the water-soap liquid phase. This increase in interfacial tension could be why lather built with more time is not as slick. It would seem that more interfacial/surface tension would correlate with less slickness. I don't know, though. This is only a guess.

 

[Try em all]

I suspect we're all looking at this the wrong way. We should be looking at soap film thickness, lubricity & film viscosity. Of course, I could be completely off base too.


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[Dovo1695]

Thanks, Nick, for your detailed thoughts on this. I think that there is some truth to what you're suggesting, but there is an important caveat.

I'm in the "princely" zone of longer shaves, to borrow your language, and as detailed in the OP, I've found that quicker building of lather makes slicker lather. The water-to-soap ratio affects lather slickness, but so does the time taken to build the lather. Minimizing the building time makes slicker lather and generally denser lather, which is also good. I was careful in the OP, though, to refer to "stable lather". All of my experimentation involves building stable lather, lather that lasts the whole shave. I haven't had any stability problems in this experimentation, but I've made sure to build lathers just enough, at least, to the point that they actually can be called "lather". If I just mixed a lot of water with some soap for, say, 10 seconds and had a watery mess, I wouldn't call it much of a "lather", but someone else might. You could shave with it, but as you were talking about, the watery, unstable "lather" would evaporate relatively quickly on the face compared to stable lather. The mixture might be considered slicker than lather that I'm making, at least for some shavers. No matter how the slickness would be considered, the lather would favor those that shave quickly, which gets to your line of thinking.

So, yes, your theory holds water, I think, but it depends on the person and how he/she deals with wetter, less stable, or unstable lather. Regardless of what works best for me, you, or others, my point in the OP is sound, that lathering time matters a lot and we should take it into consideration when building lather, experimenting a little to find out what works best for each of us and for each soap and cream that we use. In general, less time/agitation makes slicker lather which, of course, usually has less volume, more density, greater specific gravity, etc. That holds true, by my experience, and I hope that others can provide more circumstantial evidence of that.

Minute Method™: Experiment 1​

I think you're on to something with the Minute Method Grant so I had to test it out for myself. I dusted off the old RR Monster and rinsed out bowl this morning for my Saturday shave. This morning was day one of a 7 day blind test of Gillette Silver Blue vs Gillette Minora. The razors were two identical RR TeckII's. Each razor is apportioned one half of the face a la Blade Wars. No preshave other than showering. My soap was Cella, a reliable favorite. My Saturday shaves are 6 passes. A Muhle R41 with a Feather (first use) carries out the final 3. Postshave with Afterburn aftershave. It's a demanding shave that quickly highlights any deficiencies in technique.

It occurred to me when I got my brush and bowl out that it would indeed be nice to have a food scale to measure the soap and water for the purposes of comparison and description, but it was too late for that, so off I went. I added my "normal" amount of soap and water to the bowl, set my timer for 60 seconds, and began to lather. The bubbles are large indeed. Based on every photograph you've ever seen of lather you would say that it was underdeveloped. Nevertheless, I have a great deal of faith in Grant, so I charged ahead.

I was surprised to find that the slickness did indeed seem much improved over prior brush lathering attempts. It wasn't at the level I've grown accustomed to with hand lathering, but it was much better my usual brush lather, and it was also my first attempt at the Minute Method. I don't doubt that dialing in the water/soap ratio & quantities will improve it significantly.

Pass one WTG went surprisingly well. It was noticeably slicker than my normal brush lather. I did notice that my skin was drying out between passes and that the second pass seemed noticeably less slick and smooth than the first. There was almost a "scratchy" feeling that was unfamiliar, and I don't think can be attributed to the newness of the blades.

When I hand lather, I use my left hand and basically "perma-lather". My left hand never stops face lathering throughout the entire shave and I add a few drops of water to my palm every 30 seconds. This ensures that no patch of skin is ever exposed to the air for more than a second and that my face & the lather remain fully hydrated.

At any rate, I decided to rinse off the 2nd pass lather altogether, and fully re-hydrate my face with a few splashes of cold water before re-lathering and resuming the shave. That seemed to improve things, and the second pass ATG went as smoothly as the first. For the second pass however, I changed my normal brush technique to mirror my hand technique of "perma-lathering". I kept the brush in my left hand, and would brush fresh lather over exposed skin as soon as the razor passed by. The third pass was fine from the get-go, with no need to splash my face with water between passes. I continued the perma-lather technique throught pass 3 to keep things slick and hydrated. All 3 passes yielded slightly more irritation than my usual shave, but not to an extent that the shave felt unpleasant.

The R41 came out for pass 4 and started out a bit scratchy. Mid-way through pass 4, I could tell it was not going well. I finished out the 4th pass but I could feel that there was significant irritation. The R41 is a funny little beast for me because it never feels particularly comfortable to me, even when it's shaving "well". Sometimes during the shave I envision the dozen weepers that will doubtless bloom with the aftershave, only to find no weepers at all. Like I said, it's a quirky razor. This time was something different though and was materially more irritating than I am accustomed to. The TeckII is forgiving, the R41 is not. I decided that discretion was the better part of valor, and finished passes 5 (ATG) and pass 6 (XTG) with the TeckII. The final passes were less enjoyable than I am accustomed to.

My post-shave is a homemade concoction that I have nicknamed "Afterburn". It's basically a liquid litmus test for shave quality. If there is even the slightest nick, Afterburn will light it up like napalm. The recipe is 1 cup 91% isopropyl alchohol, 1 cup witch hazel (which itself is 14% alcohol), and 2 tsp clove essential oil. The clove essential oil is basically the mirror image of menthol. There is a delayed reaction but rather than a cooling sensation that slowly builds to a crescendo, it creates a heat sensation that builds to a spectacular & fiery finish before slowly fading away. Clove essential oil is also one of the most potent antibacterials known to man. Pharmaceutical companies have filed dozens of patents using it in just the last few years alone. Put succinctly, it burns like fire for 60 seconds, kills all the wee beasties, and fades out to nothing in about 60 more seconds, unless of course you have a nick. If you have a nick, the sensation is something that is both hard to describe, and completely unforgettable.

Suffice to say, after applying my homemade concoction, I'm unable to to accurately report much of anything other than that the face staring at me in the mirror had a very peculiar expression before the world faded to darkness. Kidding of course, but it truly was a "Home Alone" aftershave moment. I'm not sure which stage of the shave caused the irritation (possibly all of them), but I'm sure that pass 4 didn't help. I did indeed have a half-dozen small weepers, which hasn't happened to me since my first experiments with the Fatip Piccolo.

So my results were mixed, but I think positive over-all. I never would have attempted my 6 pass Saturday shave with my normal brush lather. The first 3 passes with the Minute Method lather were sufficiently confidence inspiring that I felt comfortable giving it a go. Which is to say it's the best lather I've made with a brush. And in fairness, a 6 pass shave is asking an awful lot of any lather.

I'm sufficiently impressed that I'm going to bring my food scale, a syringe, and some distilled water up to the shave den and experiment some more. Maybe I can dial the lather in a bit and finally learn to shave properly with a bowl and a brush.