Can a SR edge be keener (ignoring comfort) than one off diamond/CBN pasted balsa?

[rbscebu]

Ignoring the "comfort" factor, I have never been able to get a keener edge than I do off pasted balsa strops. Do my honing skills suck?

I judge keenness by how easily the edge shaves in the CdM (ATG upper lip) pass.

 

[Mitzie]

Ignoring the "comfort" factor, I have never been able to get a keener edge than I do off pasted balsa strops. Do my honing skills suck?

I judge keenness by how easily the edge shaves in the CdM (ATG upper lip) pass.

Agreed in addition (for me) cutting my 'copper wire' chin whiskers. As a newbie using balsa diamond pasted strops coming off a Cnat Adaee (thanks to rbscebu) I'm getting closer smoother shaves.

 

[JPO]

Ignoring the "comfort" factor, I have never been able to get a keener edge than I do off pasted balsa strops. Do my honing skills suck?

I judge keenness by how easily the edge shaves in the CdM (ATG upper lip) pass.

In my experience a pasted balsa usually downgrades my edges.
Balsa adds thickness behind the edge, and removes the "teeths" / fingerprint, especially from a natural edge.
A good jnat edge can be ruined with just a few strokes on balsa in my experience. It will still shave good, but the feel will suck.

However, a synthetic edge can see an improvement if balsa is used carefully, with a good abrasive applied. I don't get along with CBN or diamond for this use.
I have not found any benefits if I go all the way to 30k. However, it can do well in improving a 10-12k edge.

This is just my observations. I have revisited my balsa on multiple occasions, and still come to the same conclusions.

 

[rbscebu]

In my experience a pasted balsa usually downgrades my edges.
....

When you reference "downgrade" here, are you referring to keenness (whisker cutting force required) or comfort (feel while shaving)?

 

[JPO]

When you reference "downgrade" here, are you referring to keenness (whisker cutting force required) or comfort (feel while shaving)?

Mostly feel while shaving. Since I don't feel the balsa is adding anything to the cutting efficiency, but takes away some of the nice face feel. This leads me to the conclusion it downgrades the edge.
The story might be different if my jnat had been a little too coarse. In that case the balsa might be able to compensate a little.
This could be a interesting experiment. Suita to balsa, maybe..
Or a knife grade jnat to balsa.
I am not against using balsa. I have too much invested in sprays and compounds

 

[Tomo]

I doubt there’s anything out there that can get steel sharper than diamond pasted balsa. If there is, I haven’t seen it.

 

[Titleist]

This is such a subjective topic with too many variables in play honestly.

If you're happy with your shave, it doesn't matter to anyone else really about how you got there.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Going with 0.1 micron paste (finest available that I know of) is equivalent to 200,000 grit. The highest grit stone I know of is the Shapton 30,000 grit. So technically, the paste will give a more polished edge.

As JNAT particles break down in size, perhaps a long and well worked JNAT slurry can achieve that level of polish. But I think you would get there faster with the diamond paste.

And that is, as you requested, ignoring comfort. Depending on the steel, I have found some diamond pasted edges to be harsh.

 

[JPO]

Going with 0.1 micron paste (finest available that I know of) is equivalent to 200,000 grit. The highest grit stone I know of is the Shapton 30,000 grit. So technically, the paste will give a more polished edge.

As JNAT particles break down in size, perhaps a long and well worked JNAT slurry can achieve that level of polish. But I think you would get there faster with the diamond paste.

And that is, as you requested, ignoring comfort. Depending on the steel, I have found some diamond pasted edges to be harsh.

All this depends on the assumption that refinement follow a 1 to 1 relationship with the grit size.
The shape of the particles and hardness of the substrate is much more important.
A 0.1 micron particle will most likely not behave much different then a 0.25 micron particle if applied to a soft substrate. At least this is what the science of sharp guy is showing with his SEM photos.
A hard stone with the same particle size as a softer stone will create a sharper edge. The softer stone will also leave more shallow striations, but leave more convexity at the apex.

Grit size can be quite misleading.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Most here use the pasted balsa method. The balsa is soft and can load quickly. I don't know of any other methods of applying diamond paste. But I do believe (and I have heard) that razors can be made too sharp for saving. Such razors will bite and cause irritation. I think the 0.1 micron finish is overkill. I sometimes use it to ensure a sharp edge and then I dial it down with a jnat.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I think it's pretty tough to narrow down a blade's shaving performance to just one factor because your perception of the shave is going to be colored by a whole lot of things.

But, having said that, I used the balsa method exclusively for several months and alongside natural edges for several more. I think, objectively, it produces a very sharp edge, no question. But there are large swaths of my beard that require multiple passes and buffing strokes to get clean-shaven (basically everything below my jawline) regardless of the edge I use...manufactured or self honed. And even the smoothest diamond edge is going to start to exfoliate pretty aggressively if I do that. I suppose they're a little more prone to bite, too. At any rate, my preference is a close shave without weepers or aftershave burn, and I can get that consistently with a natural edge. Not all my edges are as keen as a diamond edge but my Arkansas edges are, now, or close enough not to matter, and much more skin friendly. I also have a razor honed by Alfredo that would easily match a diamond edge in keenness.

Another interesting thing I've found is that the diamond edge is pretty fragile. I've tried keeping one going with just leather and three shaves is about the limit for me (but edges don't last long around here). I think the Method's prescription for maintaining it on balsa after every shave is a good one if you're looking for peak performance .

 

[Slash McCoy]

Most here use the pasted balsa method. The balsa is soft and can load quickly. I don't know of any other methods of applying diamond paste. But I do believe (and I have heard) that razors can be made too sharp for saving. Such razors will bite and cause irritation. I think the 0.1 micron finish is overkill. I sometimes use it to ensure a sharp edge and then I dial it down with a jnat.

A "too sharp" edge can usually shave comfortably if you reduce your shave angle. Unfortunately our muscle memory is strong when it comes to shave angle. It can be a struggle, to deliberately nearly drag the spine on the face.

I find the .1µ on balsa to give a much smoother and more comfortable edge than .25µ or .5µ diamond. The coarser stages, to me, feel harsh, or less comfortable, anyway, and the .1µ smooths it out a lot, but I do have to lower the spine close to the face. I am so used to it now that it seems very natural, though.

A key component in balsa honing is stripping fin and micro jaggly bits from the edge using pull strokes and very short x strokes. It just works. Another is keeping the pressure dead light, especially for the final grit, and rubbing the excess from the balsa after applying, so that there is no coating on the surface.

 

[rbscebu]

I have found exactly the same as @Slash McCoy has stated. A super-flat shave angle is a must with diamond pasted balsa edges. I also incorporate pull strokes and then short X strokes on the 0.1μm balsa.

For me, the biggest improvement in comfort came once I incorporated the short X strokes. My thinking here is that they impart a very fine cross-hatch striation pattern on the bevel that helps to break up surface tension at the edge-skin interface.

 

[rbscebu]

@Eastcoast30, I have yet to experience an edge off diamond pasted balsa or any whetstone/lapping film that is too sharp.

I basically developed my initial SR shaving technique using blades finished on pasted balsa so I developed shaving with a very flat shave angle. This may be the reason why I have never experienced "too sharp". The only nicks that I only very occasionally receive are due to improper blade handling and not the keenness of the edge.

This doesn't solve my dilemma. Does my honing suck because I can't get an edge to be at least as keen (sharp) as one off pasted balsa?

 

[JPO]

@Eastcoast30, I have yet to experience an edge off diamond pasted balsa or any whetstone/lapping film that is too sharp.

I basically developed my initial SR shaving technique using blades finished on pasted balsa so I developed shaving with a very flat shave angle. This may be the reason why I have never experienced "too sharp". The only nicks that I only very occasionally receive are due to improper blade handling and not the keenness of the edge.

This doesn't solve my dilemma. Does my honing suck because I can't get an edge to be at least as keen (sharp) as one off pasted balsa?

Maybe my balsa honing skills suck
The last comparison I did between a jnat edge was shaving with the same cutting efficiency. However, the balsa side seemed to exfoliate more .

 

[rbscebu]

Maybe my balsa honing skills suck
The last comparison I did between a jnat edge was shaving with the same cutting efficiency. However, the balsa side seemed to exfoliate more .

Flatten your shaving angle. That is what is causing the exfoliation.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I have found exactly the same as @Slash McCoy has stated. A super-flat shave angle is a must with diamond pasted balsa edges. I also incorporate pull strokes and then short X strokes on the 0.1μm balsa.

For me, the biggest improvement in comfort came once I incorporated the short X strokes. My thinking here is that they impart a very fine cross-hatch striation pattern on the bevel that helps to break up surface tension at the edge-skin interface.

I think maybe it resists fin edge formation.

Consider a balsa strop of maybe 100 foot length. If you managed to stroke the razor the full length, that would be equivalent to a hundred strokes on just one side. You would get a very very small burr. Then if you did the same giant stroke on the other side, you would shift, and enlarge the burr. We don't use 100 foot long balsa, though. We use generally a piece 12" or so. That still gives you a nice, long, efficient stroke. But is the burr, or I should say a very slight fin, still there, just too small to detect? Well, what about shortening the stroke even more, to 1/4 the normal length? I think the very short strokes at the finish result in a more natural edge. Before that hint of a fin can form, you are already flipping the razor. The pull strokes also fight fin edge, and strip jaggedy bits from the edge, and slighly, ever so slightly, convex the last couple of microns of bevel, right at the edge. That is why you always follow pull strokes with regular laps, or short laps, to peak the apex back up slightly.

This is all more or less conjecture, and attempt at explaining a phenomenon that appears to be there, without a definite, observable, quantifiable causal effect.

Anyway, yeah, it works. I am not going to obsess mightily over why or how, only that it does, and intuitively it should.

 

[Slash McCoy]

@Eastcoast30, I have yet to experience an edge off diamond pasted balsa or any whetstone/lapping film that is too sharp.

I basically developed my initial SR shaving technique using blades finished on pasted balsa so I developed shaving with a very flat shave angle. This may be the reason why I have never experienced "too sharp". The only nicks that I only very occasionally receive are due to improper blade handling and not the keenness of the edge.

This doesn't solve my dilemma. Does my honing suck because I can't get an edge to be at least as keen (sharp) as one off pasted balsa?

I have shaved with a couple of Jnat edges that approach diamond on balsa, in sharpness, as in actual cutting power, but fall slightly short of matching the balsa edge. Generally though, there seems to be no contest. Most stones can't touch the best edge that can be had from the balsa, in terms of sharpness. I think for most honers, it is easier to max out the comfort level with a Jnat, than with balsa, but my balsa edges are nothing to be ashamed of, in terms of shaving comfort. During my brief foray into Jnat honing, my balsa edges were actually more comfortable AND definitely way sharper than my Jnat edges. This, with a stone that Alfredo checked out and declared fit to hone razors with. When he returned it to me, he also sent back a razor that he honed on the same stone. Great edge, comfortable shaver, but of course not as sharp as a maxed out balsa edge. Sharper than my edges from the same stone, but my balsa edges beat them all. Perhaps a better stone and better nagura would have given me a sharper edge. Certainly Alfredo would smoke me on sharpness, with a true blue holey schmoley grail Jnat kit. Experience tells.

If you are able to eke out every iota of sharpness from a balsa and diamond setup, you should definitely not think your honing sucks just because your stone or film edges are not quite as sharp. It just isn't readily doable, maybe not doable at all.

The average honer who uses random technique with a chunk of balsa and a tube of paste will probably find a good Jnat edge to be both sharper and more comfortable. The method is as important as the tool set, including the method of preparing the balsa. He is not getting all the sharpness and comfort that the balsa can deliver, while his Jnat honing might be pretty much optimized.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I find the .1µ on balsa to give a much smoother and more comfortable edge than .25µ or .5µ diamond. The coarser stages, to me, feel harsh, or less comfortable, anyway, and the .1µ smooths it out a lot

My observation, for whatever it's worth, is that most of the keenness is accomplished on the .25um, and the .1um mostly smooths things out. This is based on HHTs, it only improves a little after the .25um strop but the shave experience is vastly different. On my face, anyway.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Well, I sharpen my knives with 300 grit. That's good enough for me and the small serrations aid in cutting. While it would be unpleasant to shave with my knife, it can be done. But that knife is quite sharp. With a razor, I go to much higher grit levels, say 12,000 to 16,000. Am I making my razor sharper? Or am I polishing it to make it more comfortable?