Battle of the Finishers

[JPO]

So today I started my Ark week.

But before I used the Ark, I took the razor back to the Naniwa 8k as suggested in this thread for 20-30 X-Strokes. Then I went ahead and refined the edge on the Ark, which was loaded with baby oil.

I did a few circles at first, but quickly moved on to normal X-Strokes before finishing with some very light and short X-Strokes. The whole process took probably 30 minutes.

The first look through the loupe was sobering. There were some fairly deep horizontal scratch marks on the bevel that were not there before the Ark. Looking directly through the loupe from above, there was also a sparkling visible on the edge (that wasn't there before). So I cleaned the stone, poured in some fresh oil, and continued with some very, very light X strokes for probably another 10 minutes.

After that, I checked the bevel again with a magnifying glass, but it did not improve in the slightest.
At this point, HHT was barely possible. I then did some stropping on plain cordovan leather, which greatly improved the overall appearance of the edge. After the stropping, most of the sparkle on the edge was gone. The HHT was also acceptable now, but not great.

The shave was just okayish. Not harsh, but a clear step back in sharpness and efficiency compared to the Naniwa 12k.
I was clearly expecting a better result from this Ark and am not yet at the point where I want to accept this as the final result.

I'm pretty sure, that I did not commit any erratic stroke on the stone. I was thinking that the finishing of the stone probably needs some further refinement. It came very flat from Dans, but I still lapped it and chamfered all edges using 400 Grit and 1000 Grit sandpaper on my certified flat granite plate, which was not all that hard as expected (probably because it was already very flat). After the lapping I sharpened a kitchen knive for 5 Minutes on the stone. However, when honing my razor on this stone, it is still not running completely smooth over the surface. Sometimes (not every stroke) I seem to run randomly into some loose, coarse material which makes gliding/honing rough (probably explains the deep scratch marks I see on the bevel). I don't know where this loose material could be coming from, as the stone is already very polished and clean.

I'm thinking about lapping the Ark again, probably with a higher grit (2k) and burnish the surface even more, but I'm not sure if that will help.

I would really appreciate any suggestions on how to improve the results I saw today.

I burnished mine, but i did not like how it felt, and it did not improve my results. Now i just dress the surface with 1200 sandpaper and run a few knifes over it.

The problem i have with using oil is if you get bits of remaining burr coming off the edge, you need to clean the stone and apply new oil. If you use something like a shaving stick you can just flush it clean and continue. ONR is also a grate lubricant
You need a really good edge when you move to the Ark. It might help to strop the razor after the 8k to get rid of anything that might break loose on the Ark. As soon as you feel anything “gritty"you need to stop and clean it off.

 

[C FrankC]

So today I started my Ark week.

But before I used the Ark, I took the razor back to the Naniwa 8k as suggested in this thread for 20-30 X-Strokes. Then I went ahead and refined the edge on the Ark, which was loaded with baby oil.

I did a few circles at first, but quickly moved on to normal X-Strokes before finishing with some very light and short X-Strokes. The whole process took probably 30 minutes.

The first look through the loupe was sobering. There were some fairly deep horizontal scratch marks on the bevel that were not there before the Ark. Looking directly through the loupe from above, there was also a sparkling visible on the edge (that wasn't there before). So I cleaned the stone, poured in some fresh oil, and continued with some very, very light X strokes for probably another 10 minutes.

After that, I checked the bevel again with a magnifying glass, but it did not improve in the slightest.
At this point, HHT was barely possible. I then did some stropping on plain cordovan leather, which greatly improved the overall appearance of the edge. After the stropping, most of the sparkle on the edge was gone. The HHT was also acceptable now, but not great.

The shave was just okayish. Not harsh, but a clear step back in sharpness and efficiency compared to the Naniwa 12k.
I was clearly expecting a better result from this Ark and am not yet at the point where I want to accept this as the final result.

I'm pretty sure, that I did not commit any erratic stroke on the stone. I was thinking that the finishing of the stone probably needs some further refinement. It came very flat from Dans, but I still lapped it and chamfered all edges using 400 Grit and 1000 Grit sandpaper on my certified flat granite plate, which was not all that hard as expected (probably because it was already very flat). After the lapping I sharpened a kitchen knive for 5 Minutes on the stone. However, when honing my razor on this stone, it is still not running completely smooth over the surface. Sometimes (not every stroke) I seem to run randomly into some loose, coarse material which makes gliding/honing rough (probably explains the deep scratch marks I see on the bevel). I don't know where this loose material could be coming from, as the stone is already very polished and clean.

I'm thinking about lapping the Ark again, probably with a higher grit (2k) and burnish the surface even more, but I'm not sure if that will help.

I would really appreciate any suggestions on how to improve the results I saw today.

SilverSteel:
This is quite common for those that are new to finishing w/arks. The first clue is the rough feeling while honing, I would lap again>some more using 600 W/D paper on your granite plate then check flatness w/a known straight edge.
When you KNOW it's flat>smooth wash the stone very well with detergent then hone your kitchen knife for about 1/2 hour using your chosen honing lube. Pay attn. to how the knife feels on the newly lapped surface.

Now run a razor over it to see that you corrected the roughness you described in your post.
Once you have confidence that the stone is truly flat and free of any contamination, broken in by honing the knife and smooth by testing w/razor you are ready to start testing the stone.

I would then re-hone your test razor, one that you already know has very good shave quality coming off your 12K. Hone that razor to your best 12K edge, confirm edge condition under your magnification (no errant scratches) and test shave that edge. This gives you a known benchmark to continue testing from.

Now take that edge to your new ark, if I was using oil, I would use very thin oil or dilute it w/solvent to create low viscosity.
I like using Balistol>water, I have also used WD40, oil & kerosene, very light machine oil and Smiths honing fluid as well as diluted Glycerin & H2O.
Test many till you find the ones you like.
I would suggest light careful "X" strokes and try to feel when the edge changes to a very smooth feel on the stone, use your edge tests and visual inspection to confirm that the edge is progressing, stop when you think you are there > test shave.
I have tried lapping to 2K then a huge amount of burnishing and my stones slowed down to a crawl and did not make my edges better, now none of my ark finishers are lapped higher than 1K.
I know you won't give up and your stone is likely much more capable than the initial results you achieved; you just need to approach testing I away that will give you data that is useful.
These are just some thoughts that came to mind remembering when I started out learning about the arks I use to finish with.
Please continue to test and post your jouney.

 

[SilverSteel]

SilverSteel:
.
These are just some thoughts that came to mind remembering when I started out learning about the arks I use to finish with.
Please continue to test and post your jouney.

Thanks @C FrankC for offering your support and sharing your thoughts. I will repeat the lapping as suggested, spend time and attention to the process of breaking In the stone with the kitchen knife and report back

 

[SilverSteel]

I burnished mine, but i did not like how it felt, and it did not improve my results. Now i just dress the surface with 1200 sandpaper and run a few knifes over it.

The problem i have with using oil is if you get bits of remaining burr coming off the edge, you need to clean the stone and apply new oil. If you use something like a shaving stick you can just flush it clean and continue. ONR is also a grate lubricant
You need a really good edge when you move to the Ark. It might help to strop the razor after the 8k to get rid of anything that might break loose on the Ark. As soon as you feel anything “gritty"you need to stop and clean it off.

Thanks, I did change the oil and cleaned the surface from time to time, but it did not seem to improve the situation. I will incorporate the method of stropping before moving to the stone in my next try.

 

[SilverSteel]

Thanks @C FrankC for offering your support and sharing your thoughts. I will repeat the lapping as suggested, spend time and attention to the process of breaking In the stone with the kitchen knife and report back

A quick update. I continued the lapping for two hours, first on 400 later on 1000 grit WD paper. I had to stop before achieving a perfectly polished surface, because I ran out of WD paper. I think, this is heading into the right direction. More WD paper is on on my way. I'll keep you posted.

 

[JPO]

A quick update. I continued the lapping for two hours, first on 400 later on 1000 grit WD paper. I had to stop before achieving a perfectly polished surface, because I ran out of WD paper. I think, this is heading into the right direction. More WD paper is on on my way. I'll keep you posted.

Just remember you have two sides of that stone I keep one side hazy just by rubbing a rust eraser and some slurry from a coticule stone.

 

[Frank Shaves]

For today, Wade & Butcher 7/8 near wedge with Naniwa 12k finish.

I see the Naniwa as a work horse. Not exotic and not the most exciting to use, but the sucker just delivers. Sharp and smooth edge. No complaints. I have not experienced the harsh that some describe.

 

[SilverSteel]

For today, Wade & Butcher 7/8 near wedge with Naniwa 12k finish.

I see the Naniwa as a work horse. Not exotic and not the most exciting to use, but the sucker just delivers. Sharp and smooth edge. No complaints. I have not experienced the harsh that some describe.

View attachment 1374305

The Naniwa 12k is currently my benchmark stone when it comes to the quality of the edges it can produce. With my limited experience (I never had a stone from the shapton glass series) I think it delivers an amazing performance for the money. Hard to beat.

 

[cotedupy]

So today I started my Ark week.

But before I used the Ark, I took the razor back to the Naniwa 8k as suggested in this thread for 20-30 X-Strokes. Then I went ahead and refined the edge on the Ark, which was loaded with baby oil.

I did a few circles at first, but quickly moved on to normal X-Strokes before finishing with some very light and short X-Strokes. The whole process took probably 30 minutes.

The first look through the loupe was sobering. There were some fairly deep horizontal scratch marks on the bevel that were not there before the Ark. Looking directly through the loupe from above, there was also a sparkling visible on the edge (that wasn't there before). So I cleaned the stone, poured in some fresh oil, and continued with some very, very light X strokes for probably another 10 minutes.

After that, I checked the bevel again with a magnifying glass, but it did not improve in the slightest.
At this point, HHT was barely possible. I then did some stropping on plain cordovan leather, which greatly improved the overall appearance of the edge. After the stropping, most of the sparkle on the edge was gone. The HHT was also acceptable now, but not great.

The shave was just okayish. Not harsh, but a clear step back in sharpness and efficiency compared to the Naniwa 12k.
I was clearly expecting a better result from this Ark and am not yet at the point where I want to accept this as the final result.

I'm pretty sure, that I did not commit any erratic stroke on the stone. I was thinking that the finishing of the stone probably needs some further refinement. It came very flat from Dans, but I still lapped it and chamfered all edges using 400 Grit and 1000 Grit sandpaper on my certified flat granite plate, which was not all that hard as expected (probably because it was already very flat). After the lapping I sharpened a kitchen knive for 5 Minutes on the stone. However, when honing my razor on this stone, it is still not running completely smooth over the surface. Sometimes (not every stroke) I seem to run randomly into some loose, coarse material which makes gliding/honing rough (probably explains the deep scratch marks I see on the bevel). I don't know where this loose material could be coming from, as the stone is already very polished and clean.

I'm thinking about lapping the Ark again, probably with a higher grit (2k) and burnish the surface even more, but I'm not sure if that will help.

I would really appreciate any suggestions on how to improve the results I saw today.

I’ve read people say this on a number of occasions about black arks. When new they will release particles exactly as you describe, and so need some time bedding in (mine did too).

I’d advise finishing it a bit lower - maybe 600 - and then burnishing with a knife or chisel to hopefully remove any loose particles.

I understand it’s a pretty common thing, and should go away soon enough and not come back .

 

[cotedupy]

Love this thread btw @Frank Shaves ! I'll play. Though my results will be highly impressionistic and probably completely meaningless; I'm not going to take the razor down to a pre-finisher each time, and I'm not particularly great at honing anyway, so that's going to be a far greater variable than the finishing stone I'm using. I will spend some time with each stone, and then just give a general impression of the resulting shave.

No.1 yesterday was this little Thuri. It's a really good stone tbh, I think will probably turn out to be one of my best finishers, and gave a very keen edge and good shave.

---

Other stones that will be coming up are below. There are a few I don't have with me, so might add in my Black Ark, jnats, Vermio and stuff at a later date, but this seems enough to be getting on with. Some of the below I've not yet given a really proper try with a SR, so should be fun!

 

[cotedupy]

2.) A very beautiful green stone from the UK. Maybe a Glanrafon.



3.) I think this is probably a Tam or WoA, though it may be a Thuri.



4.) llyn Idwal



5.) Goldfisch Wetzstein (likely a kind of Lorraine / Rouge du Salm layer).



6.) Translucent Ark



7.) Escher



8a.) Coti

8b.) BBW side of same




9.) Turkish



10.) Charnley Forest



11.) Not entirely sure of this. Might be a La Lune, or Melynllyn, or maybe some kind of Devonion slate.

 

[SilverSteel]

I’ve read people say this on a number of occasions about black arks. When new they will release particles exactly as you describe, and so need some time bedding in (mine did too).

I’d advise finishing it a bit lower - maybe 600 - and then burnishing with a knife or chisel to hopefully remove any loose particles.

I understand it’s a pretty common thing, and should go away soon enough and not come back .

Thanks @cotedupy, I already had the impression, that the stone was releasing those particles, but I thought that must be impossible because of the hard nature of the Arks or that something must be wrong with mine.
Good to learn, that this is actually a normal behavior of the stone and will go away with proper surface preparation.

Btw. I just pulled the trigger on my first Jnat (Ozuku Karasu Lv5+) to include it in my battle of finishers. As I am new to all this, it's really more a "get to know your finishers" for me, than a real battle and I highly appreciate all the great support I receive here on B&B.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Very cool set of stones, @cotedupy!

 

[Frank Shaves]

@SilverSteel, I am getting better results from lapping with grits lower than 1000. Still trying to nail the sweet spot, but the evidence is pointing to 220/240 to 400 as the sweet spot for me.

My Ark edges are improving. Seems as if finishing with little to zero pressure using shorter strokes has improved my edges.

 

[cotedupy]

Thanks @cotedupy, I already had the impression, that the stone was releasing those particles, but I thought that must be impossible because of the hard nature of the Arks or that something must be wrong with mine.
Good to learn, that this is actually a normal behavior of the stone and will go away with proper surface preparation.

Btw. I just pulled the trigger on my first Jnat (Ozuku Karasu Lv5+) to include it in my battle of finishers. As I am new to all this, it's really more a "get to know your finishers" for me, than a real battle and I highly appreciate all the great support I receive here on B&B.

Yeah it's a bit of a weird one! My old Norton translucents didn't have this issue, but my old Norton black did, even though they're effectively identical in terms of hardness and fineness. Goes away quite quickly though, so you should be grand .

Translucent/black edges are pretty extraordinary when you get them right, like you - I'm also new to razor honing but they make me feel like a pro. The single most important thing to do, as the experts often point out, is to take an already very good edge to them. Burnished hard arks basically don't abrade steel, they're almost like a post-finishing stone. You don't have to burnish them, but it happens quite quickly anyway, so there's not a massive amount of difference.

Looking forward to seeing your Ozuku Karasu; sounds both beautiful, and a perfect finisher. If you don't have already - try to get some nagura, that stone will be hard as feck!

 

[cotedupy]

Very cool set of stones, @cotedupy!

Ta! (TBH I mostly got into razors so I had something to do with all my very hard/fine stones that are pretty useless for knives )

 

[Steve56]

You can slurry those hard ones with a diamond plate or hone on soft nagura slurry and at least use them on knives and tools.

 

[cotedupy]

You can slurry those hard ones with a diamond plate or hone on soft nagura slurry and at least use them on knives and tools.

Aye! Better for tools than knives though (for me). Even with a fairly heavy atoma or nagura slurry most razor finishers will overly refine most kitchen knife edges. Cotis are probably the best of them, ime - they can produce very fine knife edges that retain a lot of teeth.

 

[Steve56]

Aye! Better for tools than knives though (for me). Even with a fairly heavy atoma or nagura slurry most razor finishers will overly refine most kitchen knife edges. Cotis are probably the best of them, ime - they can produce very fine knife edges that retain a lot of teeth.

Agree, a knife edge needs a little ‘tooth’ to it, especially vegetable knives. A super refined knife edge can skate over a tomato skin while a coti edge, an Aizu, or 3k synth seems to work just fine. If you’re a competition sushi chef trying to slice a piece of fish one cell thick, then I suppose that a razor hone might be a good choice for your yamigiba?

I recall Alex Gilmore’s - @alx gilmore - videos of competition wood plane at kezurokai (sp?) when they planed a mostly transparent ribbon of wood because it was so thin. It would float in air a little. One criterion was that you had to carry it to the judges table, so it couldn’t be so thin that it would disintegrate on touch. I wonder what the finishing stone was. I seem to recall one of the stones in a Pelican case, lol.

 

[2bit_collie]

SilverSteel:
This is quite common for those that are new to finishing w/arks. The first clue is the rough feeling while honing, I would lap again>some more using 600 W/D paper on your granite plate then check flatness w/a known straight edge.
When you KNOW it's flat>smooth wash the stone very well with detergent then hone your kitchen knife for about 1/2 hour using your chosen honing lube. Pay attn. to how the knife feels on the newly lapped surface.

Now run a razor over it to see that you corrected the roughness you described in your post.
Once you have confidence that the stone is truly flat and free of any contamination, broken in by honing the knife and smooth by testing w/razor you are ready to start testing the stone.

I would then re-hone your test razor, one that you already know has very good shave quality coming off your 12K. Hone that razor to your best 12K edge, confirm edge condition under your magnification (no errant scratches) and test shave that edge. This gives you a known benchmark to continue testing from.

Now take that edge to your new ark, if I was using oil, I would use very thin oil or dilute it w/solvent to create low viscosity.
I like using Balistol>water, I have also used WD40, oil & kerosene, very light machine oil and Smiths honing fluid as well as diluted Glycerin & H2O.
Test many till you find the ones you like.
I would suggest light careful "X" strokes and try to feel when the edge changes to a very smooth feel on the stone, use your edge tests and visual inspection to confirm that the edge is progressing, stop when you think you are there > test shave.
I have tried lapping to 2K then a huge amount of burnishing and my stones slowed down to a crawl and did not make my edges better, now none of my ark finishers are lapped higher than 1K.
I know you won't give up and your stone is likely much more capable than the initial results you achieved; you just need to approach testing I away that will give you data that is useful.
These are just some thoughts that came to mind remembering when I started out learning about the arks I use to finish with.
Please continue to test and post your jouney.

I agree with these comments - in particular:
1) If I do any lapping or dressing, I make sure to wash the surface thoroughly with soapy water or oil applied with my hand to remove contaminants afterwards.
2) I have seen limited value to burnishing or lapping a black Ark to a very high grit level - it just slows the stone down.