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Battle of the Finishers

A few years back I purchased a top grade true black 4" X 7" primitive from Dan's it was anything but flat, took hours of lapping by hand to get it flat. I have experimented with the surface prep on that stone a lot, had it to near mirror at one time. It would put a very good edge on a razor but took a LONG time to get there w/that shinny surface. I now keep it with an 800-grit surface burnished a fair bit, finishes edges beautifully and doesn't take a lifetime to get there.

I also have an old vintage Pike Norton Surg.Black 2"X 8" as a two-sided system, one side I keep freshened @ 600-grit > lightly burnished the other is about 1K > well burnished. I use it mostly as a way to refresh edges when traveling or I'm away from my other stones. Just touched up a little 5/8th's Geneva tonight on this old Norton and the HHT was just excellent, I'm certain the shave in the morning will be outstanding.
As I stated earlier, I normally use Balistol & water about 50-50 mix then dilute to almost plain water as I finish. I do use other lubricants at times depending on how the edge feels on the stone or just the mood I'm in.
 
2.) A very beautiful green stone from the UK. Maybe a Glanrafon.

View attachment 1374395

3.) I think this is probably a Tam or WoA, though it may be a Thuri.

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4.) llyn Idwal

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5.) Goldfisch Wetzstein (likely a kind of Lorraine / Rouge du Salm layer).

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6.) Translucent Ark

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7.) Escher

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8a.) Coti

8b.) BBW side of same

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9.) Turkish

View attachment 1374406

10.) Charnley Forest

View attachment 1374402

11.) Not entirely sure of this. Might be a La Lune, or Melynllyn, or maybe some kind of Devonion slate.

View attachment 1374404


I spent half my day yesterday sharpening stuff because I got a load of new stones in the post and I am not the sort to place them neatly on the shelf and wait until I actually *need* to sharpen something. And that's doubly true when one of the stones is this:

12.) Moughton Whetstone.

IMG-3841.jpg

As well as its devilish good looks the Moughton stone is a very interesting stone in use too, with a number of aspects that set it apart from others. It's probably more comparable to many Japanese stones than it is to European or American stones, which is maybe unsurprising - it's a type of fine-ish siltstone/mudstone/shale, which is what most Jnats are too.

In G&H Henk Bos describes the stone as quite hard, but that's certainly not the case for this example, for a natural stone this is reasonably soft. Sawing the slurry stone off the end and flattening the bottom took me only a few minutes. It's surprising then the stone does not slurry easily at all, and this gives the impression in use of it being far harder than it actually is.

It's quite a slow stone, though raising mud does speed things up a little, and works far more to refine or polish an edge than it does abrade it. This characteristic of it is very marked, and it means the stone will finish a razor to a far higher grit than it's grain size. I would put this stone around about 8k, but I wouldn't use it like that, I suspect it's going to come into it's own after a finishing stone to polish and refine an edge, almost as a form of stropping.

Though perhaps the most interesting aspect of the Moughton stone is how thirsty it is. And when you have a very thirsty stone you can play around with it quite a lot. Later I tried soaking the stone for about 45 minutes, which makes it slightly muddier and a fair bit quicker. It can put a very fine edge on a knife with just a little bit of bite and reminded me strongly of jnat edges - I have a Shoubudani Tomae that finishes near-identically. With more mud you can also use it for polishing; it gives a lovely cloudy jigane, though struggles to pull a mirror from the hagane - it's probably not quite fine enough for that. As well as the odd razor I will probably use this stone mostly for finishing yanagiba edges, it's going to be *superb* for that.

Stone 2.) from the post above is by comparison very fine. Although it feels a little gritty in use, it gives a very sharp, quite aggressive edge. As a finishing stone it's almost the complete opposite of the Moughton stone, and although it's noticeably finer grained my hunch, as I said above, is that the Moughton might have been better following this, rather than preceding.
 
I'm not sure how much sense the post above makes in terms of the actual physics of what's going on. There aren't many stones that I would describe as reasonably soft, yet not particularly friable in terms of generating mud. And I suspect it has something to do with the porosity, and how thirsty it is. I think perhaps the Moughton Whetstone is one of those rare instances of a natural soaking stone, which is something I'll be playing with a lot more when using it. And I doubt would hurt it; it is I believe a river stone anyway, or at least the 'quarry' is around a spring and many of the stones are submerged.
 
I spent half my day yesterday sharpening stuff because I got a load of new stones in the post and I am not the sort to place them neatly on the shelf and wait until I actually *need* to sharpen something. And that's doubly true when one of the stones is this:

12.) Moughton Whetstone.

View attachment 1375333

As well as its devilish good looks the Moughton stone is a very interesting stone in use too, with a number of aspects that set it apart from others. It's probably more comparable to many Japanese stones than it is to European or American stones, which is maybe unsurprising - it's a type of fine-ish siltstone/mudstone/shale, which is what most Jnats are too.

In G&H Henk Bos describes the stone as quite hard, but that's certainly not the case for this example, for a natural stone this is reasonably soft. Sawing the slurry stone off the end and flattening the bottom took me only a few minutes. It's surprising then the stone does not slurry easily at all, and this gives the impression in use of it being far harder than it actually is.

It's quite a slow stone, though raising mud does speed things up a little, and works far more to refine or polish an edge than it does abrade it. This characteristic of it is very marked, and it means the stone will finish a razor to a far higher grit than it's grain size. I would put this stone around about 8k, but I wouldn't use it like that, I suspect it's going to come into it's own after a finishing stone to polish and refine an edge, almost as a form of stropping.

Though perhaps the most interesting aspect of the Moughton stone is how thirsty it is. And when you have a very thirsty stone you can play around with it quite a lot. Later I tried soaking the stone for about 45 minutes, which makes it slightly muddier and a fair bit quicker. It can put a very fine edge on a knife with just a little bit of bite and reminded me strongly of jnat edges - I have a Shoubudani Tomae that finishes near-identically. With more mud you can also use it for polishing; it gives a lovely cloudy jigane, though struggles to pull a mirror from the hagane - it's probably not quite fine enough for that. As well as the odd razor I will probably use this stone mostly for finishing yanagiba edges, it's going to be *superb* for that.

Stone 2.) from the post above is by comparison very fine. Although it feels a little gritty in use, it gives a very sharp, quite aggressive edge. As a finishing stone it's almost the complete opposite of the Moughton stone, and although it's noticeably finer grained my hunch, as I said above, is that the Moughton might have been better following this, rather than preceding.
Interesting history behind these stones. I guess they should be used with Sheffield steel only:)

 
For Season 2, I have chosen a J.A. Henckels 17 (high carbon, not Friodur Stainless) 7/8, full hollow, full length (not the shorter version) with good geometry.

For today, Naniwa 12k finish. Sharp and smooth. Very close shave. I just don't get the whole harsh thing that some folks say about this finish. Feels pretty darn smooth to me - like shaving up my neck. I could shave with this finish every day and be happy.

1639054794492.png
 
Interesting history behind these stones. I guess they should be used with Sheffield steel only:)


That's an interesting point... I know the were supposedly popular with the Sheffield industry, so you might be right that they work better and faster with softer Western steels - I only tried it on Japanese knives yesterday.

(That razor is Sheffield steel, but obviously you're not really trying to abrade a razor as much, so the slowness is less of an issue there, for me anyway!)
 
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I'm continuing my week with the Ark and as mentioned earlier, I still have the impression, that my surface preparation is not yet fully completed but I wanted to check if there is any noticable improvement after all the work I put in since my first test on Monday.

So again, I prepared my test razor with a full 1k to 12k Naniwa Progression and ran it on the Ark (currently lapped at 1k WD paper and broken in with a kitchen knive).

- I still have some loose particles apparently coming off the surface that create deep scratch marks on the bevel and a clearly visible degradation from 12k finish (see image blow)

- The 12k edge is crumbling away (see also image)

- I still get a rather rough, rambling feedback running the razor over the surface as soon as I apply a tiny bit of torque

- Overall there is no improvement over the 12k edge neither in shaving performance nor edge finish, but a clear degradation.

This is how the edge looked like, after the Ark+lots of stropping. The nice & even polishing from the 12k Naniwa is gone & overlayed by deep scratches from the ark.
_DSC7986 - Kopie.jpg


The edge looked terrible after coming directly from the Ark. With a good amount of stropping however, I was able to improve it to the point, that I had enough courage to try to shave with it

The shave however was not rough at all. Actually, it was surprisingly smooth (no blood, no irritation not even Feedback from the aftershave), but also not especially clean and close with some trouble to cut trough my 2 day stubble around the chin. I was also shaving extra careful because I was expecting a rough ride. Overall the shave was acceptable, but a clear step below the 12k finish from before using the Ark. I still think it must be possible to improve the results.

Today the SIC powder arrived and I will continue lapping/finishing the Ark with it.
 
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For Season 2, I have chosen a J.A. Henckels 17 (high carbon, not Friodur Stainless) 7/8, full hollow, full length (not the shorter version) with good geometry.

For today, Naniwa 12k finish. Sharp and smooth. Very close shave. I just don't get the whole harsh thing that some folks say about this finish. Feels pretty darn smooth to me - like shaving up my neck. I could shave with this finish every day and be happy.

View attachment 1375375
It's a very good edge.
 
I'm continuing my week with the Ark and as mentioned earlier, I still have the impression, that my surface preparation is not yet fully completed but I wanted to check if there is any noticable improvement after all the work I put in since my first test on Monday.

So again, I prepared my test razor with a full 1k to 12k Naniwa Progression and ran it on the Ark (currently lapped at 1k WD paper and broken in with a kitchen knive).

- I still have some loose particles apparently coming off the surface that create deep scratch marks on the bevel and a clearly visible degradation from 12k finish (see image blow)

- The 12k edge is crumbling away (see also image)

- I still get a rather rough, rambling feedback running the razor over the surface as soon as I apply a tiny bit of torque

- Overall there is no improvement over the 12k edge neither in shaving performance nor edge finish, but a clear degradation.

This is how the edge looked like, after the Ark+lots of stropping. The nice & even polishing from the 12k Naniwa is gone & overlayed by deep scratches from the ark.
View attachment 1375465

The edge looked terrible after coming directly from the Ark. With a good amount of stropping however, I was able to improve it to the point, that I had enough courage to try to shave with it

The shave however was not rough at all. Actually, it was surprisingly smooth (no blood, no irritation not even Feedback from the aftershave), but also not especially clean and close with some trouble to cut trough my 2 day stubble around the chin. I was also shaving extra careful because I was expecting a rough ride. Overall the shave was acceptable, but a clear step below the 12k finish from before using the Ark. I still think it must be possible to improve the results.

Today the SIC powder arrived and I will continue lapping/finishing the Ark with it.
Yeah, I disagreed with the ark after Naniwa 12K suggestion. I've always used a linen strop and follow up on a leather strop if the 12k had a little much bite to smooth it out.
 
I'm continuing my week with the Ark and as mentioned earlier, I still have the impression, that my surface preparation is not yet fully completed but I wanted to check if there is any noticable improvement after all the work I put in since my first test on Monday.

So again, I prepared my test razor with a full 1k to 12k Naniwa Progression and ran it on the Ark (currently lapped at 1k WD paper and broken in with a kitchen knive).

- I still have some loose particles apparently coming off the surface that create deep scratch marks on the bevel and a clearly visible degradation from 12k finish (see image blow)

- The 12k edge is crumbling away (see also image)

- I still get a rather rough, rambling feedback running the razor over the surface as soon as I apply a tiny bit of torque

- Overall there is no improvement over the 12k edge neither in shaving performance nor edge finish, but a clear degradation.

This is how the edge looked like, after the Ark+lots of stropping. The nice & even polishing from the 12k Naniwa is gone & overlayed by deep scratches from the ark.
View attachment 1375465

The edge looked terrible after coming directly from the Ark. With a good amount of stropping however, I was able to improve it to the point, that I had enough courage to try to shave with it

The shave however was not rough at all. Actually, it was surprisingly smooth (no blood, no irritation not even Feedback from the aftershave), but also not especially clean and close with some trouble to cut trough my 2 day stubble around the chin. I was also shaving extra careful because I was expecting a rough ride. Overall the shave was acceptable, but a clear step below the 12k finish from before using the Ark. I still think it must be possible to improve the results.

Today the SIC powder arrived and I will continue lapping/finishing the Ark with it.
Is that rust?
 
I'm continuing my week with the Ark and as mentioned earlier, I still have the impression, that my surface preparation is not yet fully completed but I wanted to check if there is any noticable improvement after all the work I put in since my first test on Monday.

So again, I prepared my test razor with a full 1k to 12k Naniwa Progression and ran it on the Ark (currently lapped at 1k WD paper and broken in with a kitchen knive).

- I still have some loose particles apparently coming off the surface that create deep scratch marks on the bevel and a clearly visible degradation from 12k finish (see image blow)

- The 12k edge is crumbling away (see also image)

- I still get a rather rough, rambling feedback running the razor over the surface as soon as I apply a tiny bit of torque

- Overall there is no improvement over the 12k edge neither in shaving performance nor edge finish, but a clear degradation.

This is how the edge looked like, after the Ark+lots of stropping. The nice & even polishing from the 12k Naniwa is gone & overlayed by deep scratches from the ark.
View attachment 1375465

The edge looked terrible after coming directly from the Ark. With a good amount of stropping however, I was able to improve it to the point, that I had enough courage to try to shave with it

The shave however was not rough at all. Actually, it was surprisingly smooth (no blood, no irritation not even Feedback from the aftershave), but also not especially clean and close with some trouble to cut trough my 2 day stubble around the chin. I was also shaving extra careful because I was expecting a rough ride. Overall the shave was acceptable, but a clear step below the 12k finish from before using the Ark. I still think it must be possible to improve the results.

Today the SIC powder arrived and I will continue lapping/finishing the Ark with it.
Good image, edge not so much:)
 
I'm continuing my week with the Ark and as mentioned earlier, I still have the impression, that my surface preparation is not yet fully completed but I wanted to check if there is any noticable improvement after all the work I put in since my first test on Monday.

So again, I prepared my test razor with a full 1k to 12k Naniwa Progression and ran it on the Ark (currently lapped at 1k WD paper and broken in with a kitchen knive).

- I still have some loose particles apparently coming off the surface that create deep scratch marks on the bevel and a clearly visible degradation from 12k finish (see image blow)

- The 12k edge is crumbling away (see also image)

- I still get a rather rough, rambling feedback running the razor over the surface as soon as I apply a tiny bit of torque

- Overall there is no improvement over the 12k edge neither in shaving performance nor edge finish, but a clear degradation.

This is how the edge looked like, after the Ark+lots of stropping. The nice & even polishing from the 12k Naniwa is gone & overlayed by deep scratches from the ark.
View attachment 1375465

The edge looked terrible after coming directly from the Ark. With a good amount of stropping however, I was able to improve it to the point, that I had enough courage to try to shave with it

The shave however was not rough at all. Actually, it was surprisingly smooth (no blood, no irritation not even Feedback from the aftershave), but also not especially clean and close with some trouble to cut trough my 2 day stubble around the chin. I was also shaving extra careful because I was expecting a rough ride. Overall the shave was acceptable, but a clear step below the 12k finish from before using the Ark. I still think it must be possible to improve the results.

Today the SIC powder arrived and I will continue lapping/finishing the Ark with it.
To me it looks like you are revealing some incomplete ground work. If the striations are not completely removed at each step they tend to show up later as problems. Is there any oil on the blade when you take the photo? The optics can get a little off if you have oil on the bevel.
Do you hone with oil? If you get allot of suction and just pull through it, you can mess up your edge.
 
To me it looks like you are revealing some incomplete ground work. If the striations are not completely removed at each step they tend to show up later as problems. Is there any oil on the blade when you take the photo? The optics can get a little off if you have oil on the bevel.
Do you hone with oil? If you get allot of suction and just pull through it, you can mess up your edge.
I know it's hard to believe, but this was a mirror polish after the 12k Naniwa and before it went to the Ark. Every scratch you see was caused by the Ark. There was no oil on the blade, those lines are scratches.
 
Good image, edge not so much:)
Thanks, I know a thing or two about macro photography😉

 
Thanks, I know a thing or two about macro photography😉

Great image. I viewed a carpenter bee's face through my loupe one time. Amazing to view. Teeth came together like a hypodermic needle, Green eyes with a mesh covering them, stunning really.
 
As mentioned in my earlier post, the SIC powder arrived today and I already used it on the ark.
In just a few minutes of work, the 600 grit powder did transform the surface of the stone completely. Now finally I have a fine grained surface, that I believe will be able to polish a blade. I don't have any explanation, why the WD paper delivered such a different result than the SIC powder, but its like night and day.

I tip my hat to everyone who offered help and provided suggestions but especially to @H Brad Boonshaft "SIC powder and steel cookie sheet" is the way to go. Thanks 👍

I'm currently already restoring the edge on my test razor with a full 1k to 12k progression to send it again to the Ark.
This time, I may try to do before-and-after photos of the edge.

I'm still a bit worried about running into loose particles and also the edges of the Ark need to be chamfered again after lapping on the SIC powder.
 
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As mentioned in my earlier post, the SIC powder arrived today and I already used it on the ark.
In just a few minutes of work, the 600 grit powder did transform the surface of the stone completely. Now finally I have a fine grained surface, that I believe will be able to polish a blade. I don't have any explanation, why the WD paper delivered such a different result than the SIC powder, but its like night and day.

I tip my head to everyone who offered help and provided suggestions but especially to @H Brad Boonshaft "SIC powder and steel cookie sheet" is the way to go. Thanks 👍

I'm currently already restoring the edge on my test razor with a full 1k to 12k progression to send it again to the Ark.
This time, I may try to do before-and-after photos of the edge.

I'm still a bit worried about running into loose particles and also the edges of the Ark need to be chamfered again after lapping on the SIC powder.

Run a couple of knives on the Ark before a razor. It should clear any foreign matter if there.
 
So again, I prepared my test razor with a full 1k to 12k Naniwa Progression and ran it on the Ark (currently lapped at 1k WD paper and broken in with a kitchen knive).

I would be curious about what people think about going from 12k to hard Ark.

I ask because I remember reading a thread about people getting better results going from 8k to hard Ark, but this is from memory.
 
S2 E2. J.A. Henckels 17 with Vermont green slate using mineral oil.

Nice sharp edge. My Vermont slate edges are getting smoother in appearance. Today's shave was not as close as my previous two outings with the Vermont slate. I am chalking this up to lather failed to meet expectations.

The Vermont slate, which I consider the underdog, continues to deliver sharp smooth edges. Not bad for a stone that is readily available, local (to me), and cheap as dirt.

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