Battle of the Finishers

[cotedupy]

Agree, a knife edge needs a little ‘tooth’ to it, especially vegetable knives. A super refined knife edge can skate over a tomato skin while a coti edge, an Aizu, or 3k synth seems to work just fine. If you’re a competition sushi chef trying to slice a piece of fish one cell thick, then I suppose that a razor hone might be a good choice for your yamigiba?

I recall Alex Gilmore’s - @alx gilmore - videos of competition wood plane at kezurokai (sp?) when they planed a mostly transparent ribbon of wood because it was so thin. It would float in air a little. One criterion was that you had to carry it to the judges table, so it couldn’t be so thin that it would disintegrate on touch. I wonder what the finishing stone was. I seem to recall one of the stones in a Pelican case, lol.

Jaysus... I must look up that vid, sounds insane!

Yeah... a lot of my razor finishing type stones I previously only really used for finishing yanagi, and they are indeed very good for that. Though obviously I'm not a mega-posh sushi chef, so it was probably overkill for me anyway, but fun to finish them to their full potential .

My yanagi collection is mostly because I like restoring them, polishing them, and making them look pretty. So it's nice to do, and learn about, something that's a bit more actually useful with that kind of stone, especially the smaller ones.

(And if you'll forgive a bit of showing off - this is the last yanagi resto I did, and preserving the geometry when one has been tipped to that extent really isn't easy. I was quite proud of this one tbh: Old Yanagiba Restoration WIP - https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/old-yanagiba-restoration-wip.55004/ )

 

[Steve56]

I love it, great resto! I’d love to be able to make and replace Wa handles.

 

[cotedupy]

I love it, great resto! I’d love to be able to make and replace Wa handles.

Ta! Custom wa handles are actually probably the main part of what I do for a living, so I do get a bit of practice. But tbh they're not very difficult - I have almost zero other woodworking ability - you should give it a go sometime!

 

[cotedupy]

2.) A very beautiful green stone from the UK. Maybe a Glanrafon.

View attachment 1374395

3.) I think this is probably a Tam or WoA, though it may be a Thuri.

View attachment 1374393

4.) llyn Idwal

View attachment 1374394

5.) Goldfisch Wetzstein (likely a kind of Lorraine / Rouge du Salm layer).

View attachment 1374405

6.) Translucent Ark

View attachment 1374398

7.) Escher

View attachment 1374399

8a.) Coti

8b.) BBW side of same

View attachment 1374407


9.) Turkish

View attachment 1374406

10.) Charnley Forest

View attachment 1374402

11.) Not entirely sure of this. Might be a La Lune, or Melynllyn, or maybe some kind of Devonion slate.

View attachment 1374404

Sorry to derail the thread slightly! Back on topic, I tried a few of these out this evening...


9.) The Turkish or Cretan oilstone is, as we all know, the single greatest sharpening stone ever quarried. What it isn't though, is a razor finisher. I have quite a few old Turkish, and this is the finest, slowest, and most homogenous of them. It actually surprised me how good of a razor edge this produced. I could shave with it alright, and I suspect if I'd spent more time learning and understanding it could have got it really quite good. That wouldn't hold for any of my other Turkish/Cretan stones, this one is quite atypical.

4.) I probably need to lap through some more of the surface 'bubbles' on this stone to get a better idea, currently it degrades the edge off the Turkish. I have another Idwal that's coarser and faster, this one could probably finish a razor but I suspect it's never going to be brilliant for it, and might end up sitting in a funny position between 'knife stone' and 'razor hone'. Vamos a ver. (I didn't try shaving off this).

11.) This stone is quite fast for how fine and hard it is, but again I think I need to condition the surface more, the edge is quite bite-y and aggressive atm. I'll revisit it another time; I think this is probably quite a high quality stone. Perhaps a La Lune, though I've never tried one, so god knows!

3.) I don't know why but I really want to like this stone, maybe the size... 5.5 x 2 just seems perfect for a razor. It produced a very interesting edge; objectively it wasn't as sharp as the (no.1) Thuri I used yesterday, but the shave was smoother, almost buttery, particularly atg. There's probably a name for this phenomenon (?), but I rather liked the results. Though perhaps that's just confirmation bias, as I say - I really wanted to like this stone already . I think it might be a kind of very hard Tam.

 

[Tomo]

@SilverSteel I’m sorry to hear you are struggling with your Dans black ark. A couple of points to consider.

1. An 8k finish is probably the very lower limit before going to an ark. The edge should be shave ready to start with. 12k may be a more appropriate starting point.

2. When I hear a gritty sound when honing it can mean a few things. A loose hair or dust under the blade. Blade not balanced on the stone and catching a sharp corner of the hone. Blade riding up on the stabilizer. Make sure that the stone is clean and the edges are rounded. Sharp corners are a liability.

3. I find hand held honing a little risky with an ark. You might be better at it than me. I prefer to go bench held and be very careful and deliberate with the turns.

4. Flat is important and you can definitely improve the factory flatness with WD and a surface plate. Use pencil grids to check your work. Slurry tends to remove the grids prematurely. Keep going until the grids wipe off easily with a few strokes and all areas come off at the same time. Checking the reflection is another tell tale sign on arks. Dull spots in the reflection are not hitting the paper properly yet.

5. 600-800 grit is kind of the sweet spot for razor surface finish. Past this the stone starts to glaze and becomes very slow. Honing at this level should feel smooth not gritty.

6. I feel like burnishing is often over emphasized. After the initial lapping I would recommend running a chisel over the surface to knock off loose peaks and level the surface. A couple minutes with medium pressure should do it. If I rough up a glazed surface, I don’t bother with burnishing. I just scrub the surface with dishwashing liquid and an old tooth brush.

If the ark doesn’t work out, keep it in a drawer for a few months. Most of my stones have gotten better with age.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Here's an idea, @SilverSteel. The Naniwa 12 and hard Ark have very different feels.

Focus on basics. @Gamma talks about finding the edge. Spend some time just getting used to the feel of the Ark - finding the edge. Are you applying the same amount of pressure and torque on both sides. I have a tendency to apply more torque when moving the blade toward me.

Be patient. My first Ark finishes were OK at best. But over time, they really improved. Just takes time.

 

[SilverSteel]

@SilverSteel I’m sorry to hear you are struggling with your Dans black ark. A couple of points to consider.

No need to feel sorry, I'm enjoying the learning experience.

1. An 8k finish is probably the very lower limit before going to an ark. The edge should be shave ready to start with. 12k may be a more appropriate starting point.

Okay, I'll try from 12k next time. I understand that starting from a higher grit stone will help to generate better results, but it will probably also make it more difficult to judge the work of the Ark

2. When I hear a gritty sound when honing it can mean a few things. A loose hair or dust under the blade. Blade not balanced on the stone and catching a sharp corner of the hone. Blade riding up on the stabilizer. Make sure that the stone is clean and the edges are rounded. Sharp corners are a liability.

All very good points. I use heel leading strokes to prevent from riding the stabilizer. The gritty Sound i'm worried about is more "pointy" like sand/glas compared to dust/hair sound which is more damped. Also I have the scratch marks along the bevel, not sure if hair/dust can cause this.

3. I find hand held honing a little risky with an ark. You might be better at it than me. I prefer to go bench held and be very careful and deliberate with the turns.

I have the impression, that I'm more connected to what's going on on the stone when I'm handholding allowing me to control my strokes better, but if I feel that I'm struggling with hand holding I will try to change to bench hold.

4. Flat is important and you can definitely improve the factory flatness with WD and a surface plate. Use pencil grids to check your work. Slurry tends to remove the grids prematurely. Keep going until the grids wipe off easily with a few strokes and all areas come off at the same time. Checking the reflection is another tell tale sign on arks. Dull spots in the reflection are not hitting the paper properly yet.

The pencil grids are already easily removed with just a few strokes. Probably i get fooled by the effect from the slurry (thanks for pointing this out). I'll need to get a straight edge to be absolutely sure.

5. 600-800 grit is kind of the sweet spot for razor surface finish. Past this the stone starts to glaze and becomes very slow. Honing at this level should feel smooth not gritty.

I've now used 1000 grid. If I have the impression that it's slow, I will go back.
I still have a gritty feeling as soon as I apply the slightest Torque. I'm not sure if I actually did achieve to finish the surface completely. I have not seen any further improvement in the surface finish while lapping, but it's still not as smooth and shiny as I would expect.

6. I feel like burnishing is often over emphasized. After the initial lapping I would recommend running a chisel over the surface to knock off loose peaks and level the surface. A couple minutes with medium pressure should do it. If I rough up a glazed surface, I don’t bother with burnishing. I just scrub the surface with dishwashing liquid and an old tooth brush.

In my current situation I had the impression, that running kitchen knives over the stone really did improve the surface, but That's probably because the finish with the WD paper is still not completed. Btw. My kitchen knive now also passes the HHT

If the ark doesn’t work out, keep it in a drawer for a few months. Most of my stones have gotten better with age.

No worries, it was quiet expensive to ship it from US to Germany, I won't give up easily

Thanks for all your support @Tomo

 

[JPO]

No need to feel sorry, I'm enjoying the learning experience.


Okay, I'll try from 12k next time. I understand that starting from a higher grit stone will help to generate better results, but it will probably also make it more difficult to judge the work of the Ark


All very good points. I use heel leading strokes to prevent from riding the stabilizer. The gritty Sound i'm worried about is more "pointy" like sand/glas compared to dust/hair sound which is more damped. Also I have the scratch marks along the bevel, not sure if hair/dust can lead to this.


I have the impression, that I'm more connected to what's going on on the stone when I'm handholding allowing me to control my strokes better, but if I feel that I'm struggling with hand holding I will try to change to bench hold.


The pencil grids are already easily removed with just a few strokes. Probably i get fooled by the effect from the slurry (thanks for pointing this out). I'll need to get a straight edge to be absolutely sure.


I've now used 1000 grid. If I have the impression that it's slow, I will go back.
I still have a gritty feeling as soon as I apply the slightest Torque. I'm not sure if I actually did achieve to finish the surface completely. I have not seen any further improvement in the surface finished while lapping but it's not as smooth and shiny as I would expect.


In my current situation I had the impression, that running kitchen knives over the stone really did improve the surface, but That's probably because the finish with the WD paper is still not completed. Btw. My kitchen knive now also passes the HHT


No worries, it was quiet expensive to ship it from US to Germany, I won't give up easily

Thanks for all your support @Tomo

I got mine from Dictum in Germany. Do you know where they source the stones from?
I a considering getting one from Dan's, but it is really expensive to get it to my location.

 

[Frank Shaves]

For today, Wade & Butcher 7/8 near wedge with Ozuku finish using a fine DMT credit card size "plate" to generate slurry. This is the fifth and last test with the 19th century Sheffield crucible steel.

The Ozuku is a great match for the crucible steel. Sharp and smooth producing a very close shave.

All five finishers performed well on this steel. Tough call, but if forced at gunpoint to only choose two finishers, I would probably take the Ozuku and the hard translucent Ark. That said the Vermont green may have produced the closest shave. Bottom line is all five finishers more than passed the test.

Tomorrow, we will move on to post WWII Solingen steel.

 

[SilverSteel]

I got mine from Dictum in Germany. Do you know where they source the stones from?
I a considering getting one from Dan's, but it is really expensive to get it to my location.

Unfortunately I don't know where Dictum source their Arks from, but I can probably ask them, when I finally visit their store (I wanted to take a look at their sho-honyamas anyway).

But I don't believe the stones from Dictum are sourced from Dan's. According to the information I got from Kim, Dan's don't have any official european reseller/vendor.

 

[JPO]

Unfortunately I don't know where Dictum source their Arks from, but I can probably ask them, when I finally visit their store (I wanted to take a look at their sho-honyamas anyway).

But I don't believe the stones from Dictum are sourced from Dan's. According to the information I got from Kim, Dan's don't have any official european reseller/vendor.

The blue black i got from them was really nice. If the stones from Dan's are even better, they should be grate.

 

[SilverSteel]

The blue black i got from them was really nice. If the stones from Dan's are even better, they should be grate.

Nice to hear, that you liked their stone. Why did you choose the black over the trans? On their website, the trans Arks are rated finer than the black ones?

Is anybody using the Arks from Norton's current lineup? HB6 is a bit tempting, but they don't seem to be liked as much as the old Norton's or the offerings from Dan's.

 

[SilverSteel]

Here's an idea, @SilverSteel. The Naniwa 12 and hard Ark have very different feels.

Focus on basics. @Gamma talks about finding the edge. Spend some time just getting used to the feel of the Ark - finding the edge. Are you applying the same amount of pressure and torque on both sides. I have a tendency to apply more torque when moving the blade toward me.

Be patient. My first Ark finishes were OK at best. But over time, they really improved. Just takes time.

I agree. My edges immediately improved when I bought some nice stones and actually started enjoying the process of honing.
Now that I no longer see it simply as a chore, that needs to be completed as quickly as possible, I'm much more patiente and I find pleasure in paying close attention to what's happening on the stone and "feel the edge".

My tendency is to apply more torque when moving the blade away from me and even though I know it, I still regularly forget to compensate for it.

I totally understand your point and I've read a lot about how unforgiving Arks are, but I think, that my surface prep is not completed, even this is hard to believe for me, after now spending around 4 hours using up several 9 feet rolls of SIC WD Paper and two diamond plates (cheap Chinese once).

It still looks and feels much rougher than I would expect. It's more a subtle rambling than plain flat Glas feeling when honing the straight razor.
The bevel polish is also not improving compared to the 8k Naniwa (let alone 12k). I'll try to post some images later.

 

[JPO]

Nice to hear, that you liked their stone. Why did you choose the black over the trans? On their website, the trans Arks are rated finer than the black ones?

Is anybody using the Arks from Norton's current lineup? HB6 is a bit tempting, but they don't seem to be liked as much as the old Norton's or the offerings from Dan's.

I got a translucent black. I am not sure how they can provide a grit rating on these because it should be graded based on specific gravity. RH preyda rates the translucent as finer then the surgical black, while Dan’s rates the surgical black as finer then the translucent. It is all a little confusing to me. Marketing maybe. The SG of my stone was in the upper range, and the performance is grate. I have no reference point, because i only have one Ark. It did do something good to one of my jnat edges. The microscope also showed a nice polished bevel.
I liked the thicker size they sold (20 mm x 150). The effective “grit” depends more on how you prepare the surface. Assigning a grit rating is just meaningless. Is it a JIS grit, FEPA grit rating, what are they referring to? My assumption was that they were no Ark experts and that the translucent black should be a good choice. Part of the problem is that razor honing is a niche hobby, and most retailer sell stones primarily for tool and knife sharpening.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The trick to flattening an Ark is loose Silicone Carbide, 60 grit on a steel cookie sheet. Stay on 60 grit until it is flat and smooth. Grid Mark with a sharpie and can remove all the grid in less than 10 laps, slurry will wash off the grid and the stone may not be flat. Do multiple grid removals.

Wet and Dry and diamond plates will not get you flat, (Arks will rip the diamonds from a plate), unless the stone is pretty flat to begin with, you may have done more damage to the stone face with the diamond plates. Heavy scratches will need to be removed.

You can buy an assortment of grits from 60 to 500 for $15 from GotGrit.com. From 500 lose grit, you can go to 600 wet and dry. Once the stone is flat, with 60 grit, polishing goes quickly with finer grits, remove the previous grit scratch pattern. Use a steel Dollar Store cookie sheet. If you use stone or glass, it goes out of flat quickly and is self- defeating.

You should be able to get to flat in about 20 minutes, with a steel cookie sheet, and lose 60 grit on the cement floor and using your body weight on the stone, add grit as needed.

I lap glass tiles for film with 220 wet and dry, it is surprising how un- flat glass is and how quickly 220 cut glass.

It is not about dead flat, but flat-ish and removing any pockets that are not smooth and will surface as the stone wears. For razor use you will only need to lap flat once.

Once the stone face is flat, you can experiment and change the stone face aggression or polish with 600-2k wet and dry. I lap one side to 600 and burnish the other side. If you are not happy with the finish you can alter the face in minutes with wet and dry and the cookie sheet..

Until the stone is flat and smooth, you are spinning your wheels with wet and dry.

 

[SilverSteel]

Wet and Dry and diamond plates will not get you flat, (Arks will rip the diamonds from a plate), unless the stone is pretty flat to begin with, you may have done more damage to the stone face with the diamond plates. Heavy scratches will need to be removed.

That's exactly what happened to me using the diamond plates. It took me probably an hour or two just to remove the scratch marks from the diamond plates.

I knew about the SIC power being the most effective way to tackle this issue but I somehow wanted to avoid it.

Now I really want to know.... I just order a set of SIC powders and a straightedge.
I will prevail!

 

[Tomo]

That's exactly what happened to me using the diamond plates. It took me probably an hour or two just to remove the scratch marks from the diamond plates.

I knew about the SIC power being the most effective way to tackle this issue but I somehow wanted to avoid it.

Now I really want to know.... I just order a set of SIC powders and a straightedge.
I will prevail!

Loose sic is faster and cheaper than WD. Good for heavy lifting and rough work. WD is sic grit attached to paper and will work too. My view is that WD on a surface plate is more precise for final lapping. You can throw some loose sic on your WD to get some more mileage out of it. Your Dans stone should need much lapping.

 

[Bowmaker]

I found this on dictum's web site. I thought it was an odd comment to make....


"Quality of Natural Stones
For many years, the Belgian coticule and Arkansas stones have been synonymous with high-quality whetstones. But these stones are natural products. Due to limited resources, the quality of these stones may increasingly vary. Japanese waterstones with fine grain structures are recommended as an alternative."

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm | | Dictum

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm from category with 30-day right of return at Dictum

www.dictum.com

 

[Tomo]

For today, Wade & Butcher 7/8 near wedge with Ozuku finish using a fine DMT credit card size "plate" to generate slurry. This is the fifth and last test with the 19th century Sheffield crucible steel.

The Ozuku is a great match for the crucible steel. Sharp and smooth producing a very close shave.

All five finishers performed well on this steel. Tough call, but if forced at gunpoint to only choose two finishers, I would probably take the Ozuku and the hard translucent Ark. That said the Vermont green may have produced the closest shave. Bottom line is all five finishers more than passed the test.

Tomorrow, we will move on to post WWII Solingen steel.

View attachment 1374852

I would be interesting to see how a Thuri stacks up. After the Ark, the Thuri is my second favourite finisher.

Never really got the hang of Jnats but I might try then again some day.

 

[JPO]

I found this on dictum's web site. I thought it was an odd comment to make....


"Quality of Natural Stones
For many years, the Belgian coticule and Arkansas stones have been synonymous with high-quality whetstones. But these stones are natural products. Due to limited resources, the quality of these stones may increasingly vary. Japanese waterstones with fine grain structures are recommended as an alternative."

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm | | Dictum

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm from category with 30-day right of return at Dictum

www.dictum.com

It almost sound like a disclaimer. This is a strange statement. As far as i know it is more or less the same coticules and Arks that is dug out of the ground today. Different veins maybe, but to say they the quality vary more is a bit strange. How they grade and sort the different stones might be a different story. The knowledge of these stones from the different vendors definitely vary.